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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 541
Netizens-Digest Wednesday, September 21 2005 Volume 01 : Number 541
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
[netz] My recent trip to Beijing and Seoul
[netz] A written version of Ronda's talk.
Re: [netz] My recent trip to Beijing and Seoul
[netz] Article about Netizens in Korea and OhmyNews
[netz] Yahoo's role in 10 year prison sentence for Chinese Journalist
Re: [netz] Yahoo's role in 10 year prison sentence for Chinese Journalist
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:18:22 +0200
From: "Ronald John Bartle" <bartle.berlin@freenet.de>
Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen
response
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Ronald John Bartle wrote:
>
>> All she needed to do was to clean up the mess - end of story!
>>
>> ron b.
>>
>>
>> / -- /
>>
>>
> The question is an interesting one. What would more democracy look like?
> In any case the dog poop story was important in Korea because it was about
> people trying to act or trying to figure out how to act instead of calling
> on a state separate from the people to act for them. The woman's act
> against society was minor but real and some Korean netizens acted to deal
> with it. If they can find how to act in correct proportion to the little
> crime they will have accomplished something. Ronda was reporting on the
> importance of this experimentation toward extending democracy.
>
Jay - I can see that there are larger issues addressed here.
The specifics of the case though make it very plain to me that there is
basically one point.
If she had cleaned up the mess there would have been no outcry and the
matter would have been resolved right there and then.
She opened herself up to censur when she decided not to remove the mess.
Has she tried to explain herself, or otherwise responded to the critisism?
ron b.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:28:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jay Hauben <hauben@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
>> The question is an interesting one. What would more democracy look like?
>> In any case the dog poop story was important in Korea because it was about
>> people trying to act or trying to figure out how to act instead of calling
>> on a state separate from the people to act for them.
>
> Are you saying, then, that proper netizen conduct only exists with ad-hoc
> collaboration in anarchy? Even direct democracy, which is NOT consensus
> decisionmaking, needs a moderator for the meeting.
No I was saying that the Korean netizens were trying to find how to be
active citizens. Their online discussion of this event was for me
their effort to find the proper response of citizens to an anti-social
act.
I am focusing on the discussion after the events as a constructive
process.
Jay
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:48:50 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
> We may have very, very different definitions of democracy. To me, having
> democracy without a state is either a contradiction in terms, or a euphemism
> for voluntary anarchy.
Could you agree that there could be community democracy based on rules accepted
by community (not state necessarily)?
Daniel
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:33:10 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
At 10:48 PM +0200 7/13/05, Dan Duris wrote:
> > We may have very, very different definitions of democracy. To me, having
>> democracy without a state is either a contradiction in terms, or a euphemism
>> for voluntary anarchy.
>
>Could you agree that there could be community democracy based on
>rules accepted
>by community (not state necessarily)?
>
>Daniel
It can work, to a limited extent, in small communities. I see no
evidence that it can scale to any appreciable size. Historically, it
worked in small US towns, as long as the population was willing to
wait until the extremists talked themselves into exhaustion.
In my local jurisdiction, an urban county with a 2000 population of
approximately 189,000 residents, there is a five-member elected
County Board. It has a public meeting every Saturday. The Board (and
the County Manager and professional staff) are quite willing to read
documents sent to them; people do have their input, but not
necessarily all the public time they might desire.
At the open meeting, however, there is an public comment period
following the formal board meeting. Over a number of years, perhaps
five individuals with opinions on nearly everything, which they were
prone to lecture on at great length, monopolized the microphone.
Fairness reeentered after rules were introduced specifying that at a
given meeting, one individual could:
speak only on one topic
speak for 5 minutes if the topic had been addressed by the board,
or for 10 minutes if it was a new subject.
So, no, I do not agree there can be community democracy by consensus
rules in a community of any appreciable size, at least with the
social customs prevalent in the USA. This may work for small and
isolated agricultural communities, where there is a real sense of
interdependence.
Have you examples of that working in an urban, industrialized area of
appreciable population? I know of no modern examples.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:16:33 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
Howard,
I do not have any examples and was just curious if you agreed on small
communities ruled by consensus, which you do. I do agree with your point of view
however, that there can't be democracy without some formalized rules in larger
communities or nations such large as USA are.
Daniel
>
> So, no, I do not agree there can be community democracy by consensus
> rules in a community of any appreciable size, at least with the social
> customs prevalent in the USA. This may work for small and isolated
> agricultural communities, where there is a real sense of interdependence.
>
> Have you examples of that working in an urban, industrialized area of
> appreciable population? I know of no modern examples.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:53:33 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response
At 11:16 AM +0200 7/14/05, Dan Duris wrote:
>Howard,
>
>I do not have any examples and was just curious if you agreed on small
>communities ruled by consensus, which you do. I do agree with your
>point of view
>however, that there can't be democracy without some formalized rules in larger
>communities or nations such large as USA are.
Actually, no, I don't agree that small communities, much larger than
a group of families, can operate by consensus. I do agree that there
are a reasonable number of communities, with populations in the low
thousands, that do operate by direct democracy -- which is not the
same as consensus.
One of the limiting factors for either will be a shared cultural
context, and reasonably homogeneous values. In the US, we speak of
the "New England Town Meeting", where small communities, which can
trace their origins and practices to colonial days, still use direct
democracy. It often takes decades for a newcomer to be accepted fully
- -- or need to go into additional generations. Those town meetings may
tolerate, in amusement, one or two eccentric individuals that want to
spend an hour or two addressing all of their personal complaints to
the assembly. Allowing this in my home jurisdiction simply didn't
work with the number of eccentrics in a population approaching
200,000.
There's a fair amount of social science experience that shows that
consensus models, among people that don't have strong common values
and bonding, tends to be dominated either by charismatic individuals,
or the people who can speak for the longest time without having to
visit the toilet.
Charisma or continued speaking counts less in a direct democracy with
sufficient rules to require a vote after some finite period of time.
An additional problem of scaling direct democracy is protecting the
interests of minorities. No perfect system exists for this, but there
are various models, usually appropriate to republics rather than
direct democracies. These models include proportional voting, or the
US congressional model with two legislative bodies, one apportioned
on population and the other apportioned in a way that strengthens the
role of small states.
>
>Daniel
>
>>
>> So, no, I do not agree there can be community democracy by consensus
>> rules in a community of any appreciable size, at least with the social
>> customs prevalent in the USA. This may work for small and isolated
>> agricultural communities, where there is a real sense of interdependence.
>>
>> Have you examples of that working in an urban, industrialized area of
>> appreciable population? I know of no modern examples.
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:20:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] My recent trip to Beijing and Seoul
Hi Everybody
I just got back from a 2-1/2 week trip to Beijing and
Seoul. I was in Beijing at the end of July for the
22nd International Conference on the History of Science
http://2005bj.ihns.ac.cn/
There were almost a thousand people attending the conference
I was co-organizer of a symposium on "Computer Networks, the Internet and
the Netizens: Their Impact on Science and Society"
The url for the symposium is:
2005bj.ihns.ac.cn/symposia/SYMPOSIUM%20SC9.HTM<http://2005bj.ihns.ac.cn/symposia/SYMPOSIUM%20SC9.HTM>
Being in Beijing was quite exciting as Beijing is a flurry of construction
to prepare for the 2008 Olympics. The people I met from Beijing were in
general excited about the developments going on, but also considering what
should be the direction for China.
I will be trying to do some summary of the trip and will see about
writing a more detailed description of some of the experiences and
conversations with people during the trip to Beijing.
After Beijing, my husband Jay and I went to Seoul. I was happy to be back in
Seoul and to see a few of the people I had met earlier during the June OMNI
conference and a number of new people.
During the past several months before the trip I was interested in
the netizen phenomenon in South Korea. During my recent trip
I was able to speak with a number of netizens, including people who had been
involved in the Nosamo club (that helped elect Roh as President of South
Korea), about their view of what was happening with netizens in South Korea.
Also I was invited to give a talk at Seoul National University about the
Internet and netizen research I have been doing over the past 12 years.
I gave the talk from slides but also have written a version of the talk
that I have submitted to OMNI at Jean Min's request.
I learned also that the book "Netizens: On the History and Impact of Usenet
and the Internet" that Michael and I put online in 1994 (and is now in a
print edition) was known by students at SNU. (The url for the book is
http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/)
Also I did an interview with Mr. Oh, the founder and CEO of OhmyNews
and plan to write an article about OhmyNew. If anyone has any suggestions
of what I should think of including, feel free to write me and send the
suggestions.
I visited the web team at the Blue House (the equivalent
of the US White House for South Korea). There is a netizen section for the
Blue House web site. This makes it possible for people to post their
problems and/or comments online and for others to see these posts. I was
interested in the history of this development and its actuality.
Other interesting experiences during this recent trip include
meeting with some students who described a number of the interesting online
developments and their thoughts and concerns about them, talking with
someone who had just written her master's thesis about blogs in South Korea,
an interesting discussion with two OMNI correspondents about how netizenship
in Korea has developed before citizenship, concerns they had about how to
help young people who get online learn how to be netizens, and other
concerns, learning a bit about the development of some online forms and web
sites that are getting lots of discussion.
I learned a little about the anti impeachment actions in 2004,
and some about how people are trying to have some impact on their political
officials.
The next election for President in South Korea is now a little more than 2
years away and so some are thinking of what will happen to prepare for that.
The last election was won with the significant help of netizens, and is
described as an example of "netizen power".
Also there were some interesting discussion with Professors about
their observations about what was happening.
And in general there was concern among the people I met that there be some
way to understand what was happening in South Korea as the fact that 80% of
the population have broad band Internet access makes the situation in South
Korea pioneering with regard to the impact of the Internet on society. There
is concern that developments seems to be going very fast
and a desire to have some way to make sure that there is reflection on what
is happening so it goes in a good direction.
I hope to write up my notes from the trip in some form.
I welcome thoughts and questions etc about the trip and the experiences and
the developments in China and South Korea.
with best wishes
Ronda
- --
Netizens: On the History and Impact of Usenet and the Internet
http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook
http://www.ais.org/~jrh/netizens.news
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:13:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jay Hauben <hauben@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] A written version of Ronda's talk.
Hi,
Ronda gave a talk about science of the Internet and the emergence of
the netizens in Beijing and again with some additions in Seoul.
Readers of this list might find the talk of interest.
The written version of the talk appears in the Korean online
newsjournal Ohmynews. The title of the article is:
Dawn of the Internet and Netizen
The url it is:
http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?menu=A11100&no=242311&rel_no=1&back_url=
I am sure Ronda would be happy to get your comments on her work.
Take care.
Jay
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:09:55 -0400
From: xz2129@columbia.edu
Subject: Re: [netz] My recent trip to Beijing and Seoul
Hi, Ronda,
Are you here at school today? If so, maybe we can meet each other at
5pm. I will check the email at 4:30pm and see the result. Let me
know your availability after you see this mail. Thanks!
Best,
Cynthia
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:37:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] Article about Netizens in Korea and OhmyNews
An article about Netizens in Korea and the online newspaper OhmyNews
appears in Telepolis
The url for the article is
Advancing "News guerrillas"
OhmyNews and 21st Century Journalism
Ronda Hauben 08.09.2005
http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20853/1.html
I welcome comments and discussion on the article.
The disaster in New Orleans in the US shows the great need for a press
that would help to point up problems that needed serious attention
before Katrina hit and the levees were breached.
Unfortunately, there was no press in the US about to get serious
attention to this problem until after the devastation. The problem was
not spotlighted earlier by a press powerful enough to have the problem
considered news.
There is an ever more urgent need for a progressive press in the US
that can get the proper attention to serious problems before another
catastrophe hits.
So I hope there will be some discussion of my article and of OhmyNews
and of how to bring about the changed environment in the press that is
needed in countries where the need is great like the US.
with best wishes
Ronda
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:31:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] Yahoo's role in 10 year prison sentence for Chinese Journalist
The role of Yahoo in convicting a Chinese journalist to a 10 year
prison sentence is being debated in the press as it had been
debated online in recent weeks. I thought this would be of interest
to those on the netizens list:
Some articles relating to it include
Chinese journalist Shi Tao sentenced to 10 year in prison for email that
Yahoo helped to track
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=248907&rel_no=1
Yahoo's mess of pottage
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/20/news/edbowring.php
A Cooler Look at Yahoo in China
The U.S. portal is getting pilloried for its role in the imprisonment of a
Chinese journalist. The affair, however, isn't so simple
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep2005/nf20050921_9883_db065.htm
with best wishes
Ronda
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:10:41 +0200
From: "Ronald John Bartle" <bartle.berlin@freenet.de>
Subject: Re: [netz] Yahoo's role in 10 year prison sentence for Chinese Journalist
It seems to me that the problem here is that the regime in China as a
repressive take on most forms of critisism.
Yahoo had just invested 1Bln $ in the Chineese market. The operate within
China and as such have to comply with the (bad-) laws that exist there.
Ask Yahoo`s sharholders if they should just pull stumps and leave China to
the less scrupolous competetition?
There is plainly a bigger question here - should western firms/corperations
be operating in China.
Furthermore - if one answers "no" to this - shold the west in general be
involved with China at all as a trading partner etc?
Most will feel the above questions are purely retorical. The
_rest-of-the-world_ has no real choice but to engage with such a massive
entity as the PR China with it`s vast markets and (human-) resources.
Perhaps we would all be best advised to concentrate our efforts on any and
every doeable means of encouraging a more democratic and just situation - in
China - as elsewhere.
So the Chineese have imprisoned a person they consider a State Enemy.
How many innocent civilians (and others-) have died in Iraq today?
How much moral indignation are we all going to produce in response to thier
deaths - as compared to the moral indignation raised by a journalist who
fell foul of his own countries laws?
Without the mega- Billions of Dollars spent world wide on military forces -
humanity could be a whole lot further along the line of progress and
enlightenment in general - including a bit more democracy in China.
Who has an address for Shi Tao in jail? Perhaps we would do more good by
sending him a care package or two?
As a (foreign-) resident of Berlin - I can`t help remembering how the East
German leader Erich Honnecker was reveived with practically full "military
honours" by Chancellor Kohl of West Germany - and then a few years latter
thrown in a cell in Berlin-Moabit, apparently for the crimes he was
commiting at the time he was being received as head-of-state by Kohl.
Double standards.
Profiting from massive trade with and in China and then "pretending" to be
oh so upset when the Chineese Police enforce Chineese laws.
Poooh Baaah.
ron b.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronda Hauben" <ronda@panix.com>
To: <netizens@columbia.edu>
Cc: "Ronda Hauben" <ronda@panix.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: [netz] Yahoo's role in 10 year prison sentence for Chinese
Journalist
>
> The role of Yahoo in convicting a Chinese journalist to a 10 year
> prison sentence is being debated in the press as it had been
> debated online in recent weeks. I thought this would be of interest
> to those on the netizens list:
>
> Some articles relating to it include
>
> Chinese journalist Shi Tao sentenced to 10 year in prison for email that
> Yahoo helped to track
> http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=248907&rel_no=1
>
> Yahoo's mess of pottage
> http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/20/news/edbowring.php
>
>
> A Cooler Look at Yahoo in China
> The U.S. portal is getting pilloried for its role in the imprisonment of a
> Chinese journalist. The affair, however, isn't so simple
> http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep2005/nf20050921_9883_db065.htm
>
>
> with best wishes
>
> Ronda
>
>
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #541
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