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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 522
Netizens-Digest Tuesday, April 29 2003 Volume 01 : Number 522
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
[netz] Million Marihuana March in Slovakia
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Clarification
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? grassroots
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Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:38:00 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition
HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism.
Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This
list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- information sharing, not barring -*
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:32:45 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
RH> It is just that they can be fired if they try to exercise them
RH> in the US and that isn't what rights are about.
But you always have a choice, don't you? You can even try to establish
company to compete with your previous employer...
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- i have never finished anything, but now i -*
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote:
> RH> It is just that they can be fired if they try to exercise them
> RH> in the US and that isn't what rights are about.
>
> But you always have a choice, don't you? You can even try to establish
> company to compete with your previous employer...
>
No you don't always have the choice.
If you get fired from one job it becomes very difficult to
get another job.
And it isn't that everyone wants to set up their own company,
nor can everyone.
And many small companies go bankrupt etc.
So in fact the economic situation of people can be very
difficult, especially in the kind of economy that exists
now in the US.
But it has been difficult for a while for a number of people.
Ronda
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:12:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote:
> HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition
> HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism.
Netizens is about democracy
>
> Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This
> list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic.
>
Are you saying that it is anti-capitalistic to try to have democracy?
I am trying to discuss democracy.
Why is it that being pro or anti capitalistic becomes an issue?
The Internet was created under scientific leadership under the
US and other governments. Is this then anti-capitalistic?
Is talking about government and scientific leadership anti-capitalistic?
I realize there is a set of libertarian ideology that is anti
government. That is *not* what netizens is about.
Ronda
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:23:43 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
>On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote:
>
>> HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition
>> HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism.
>
>Netizens is about democracy
>
>>
>> Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This
>> list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic.
>>
>
>Are you saying that it is anti-capitalistic to try to have democracy?
No, I am not saying that. But I have understood you to say that one
does not have citizen rights while being employed, due to the
economic power of the employer. I disagree.
I think it is totally confusing the democratic message of netizenship
to bring in the special cases of one being paid or not paid, or an
elected official or not.
>
>I am trying to discuss democracy.
>
>Why is it that being pro or anti capitalistic becomes an issue?
>
>The Internet was created under scientific leadership under the
>US and other governments. Is this then anti-capitalistic?
>
>Is talking about government and scientific leadership anti-capitalistic?
When you make the point that the scientists who created the basic net
were not Netizens because they were paid to do so, yes. I know a good
many of the early pioneers, and I would consider their motivations
quite consistent with my understanding of netizenship.
>
>I realize there is a set of libertarian ideology that is anti
>government. That is *not* what netizens is about.
>
>Ronda
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:16:16 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: [netz] Million Marihuana March in Slovakia
Hi,
on 3rd of May there will be MMM taking part in Bratislava, the capital
of Slovakia. I think this is very "netizenish", since the whole thing
in Slovakia has been coordinated through internet website Kyberia.sk
that is sort of forum website, where people can create their forums
and contribute by blogs etc.
;-)
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- "shutdown windows, open the gates" vlad. s. -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:20:59 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Clarification
HCB> A netizen is a citizen who uses the Internet in the pursuit of the
HCB> general social good, including participation in the governmental
HCB> process. As long as the person's intent is devoted to the social
HCB> good, including such things as encouraging universal net access, it
HCB> makes no difference if they are paid, hold government office, or any
HCB> other economic or political factor.
I'll stick to Howard's definition until there is some better out
here.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- little brother says: "minimal state!" -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:40:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment
It is hard to have an exchange as one's words are distorted and
one wonders why it is being done in such a hostile way, Howard.
The discussion began when I made the effort to distinguish between
the use of "netizen" to describe a net user versus someone that
Michael had discovered online as acting in a way that represented
a social sense which was termed net.citizen and he called netizen.
Then Dan Duris disagreed saying that he contributed
to the Internet and he also had to make money to live and that
was all part of being a netizen.
I disagreed.
So a useful discussion began about what is a citizen and there
was the basis after discussing this to explore how it related to
the sense of a netizen.
As part of this I made the effort to distinguish a public official
from a citizen and a paid job that one has (even in a public capacity)
with acting as a citizen.
Instead of exploring this and the disagreements about this, you
have taken your views on I am not sure what and used them to
claim that what I am saying is something you put together.
I asked you to say what you wanted to say, not to say what
I am saying.
In the process the discussion gets changed to are someone's views
"anti-capitalist" and that if you make money at something you
are or aren't a netizen.
The discussion of citizen is over.
You declare that someone else's views are completely hostile to
capitalism.
Why are you doing this?
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
> >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote:
> >
> >> HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition
> >> HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism.
> >
> >Netizens is about democracy
> >
> >>
> >> Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This
> >> list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic.
> >>
> >
> >Are you saying that it is anti-capitalistic to try to have democracy?
>
> No, I am not saying that. But I have understood you to say that one
> does not have citizen rights while being employed, due to the
> economic power of the employer. I disagree.
>
> I think it is totally confusing the democratic message of netizenship
> to bring in the special cases of one being paid or not paid, or an
> elected official or not.
We were discussing what a citizen is.
And whether a public official is a citizen as well or serving
citizens.
That is confusing?
I felt it was useful but for some reason you don't want to consider
this. I wonder why it seems so sensitive an issue for you.
After trying to clarify some differences about our views of
citizens it seemed it might be easier to understand what the
difficulty is discussing about netizens.
But you don't want to clarify differences about citizens.
Instead you want to declare the discussion off limits.
Why are you proposing that a discussion about the nature
of citizens is off limits on the netizen list?
If this may help us to examine the concept of netizen
and if we have different concepts of netizens.
Instead you want agreement on your concept of netizens.
The discussion about citizens is over.
Any distinction we might have gotten at about citizens
which may have been helpful about netizens is over.
>
> >
> >I am trying to discuss democracy.
> >
> >Why is it that being pro or anti capitalistic becomes an issue?
> >
> >The Internet was created under scientific leadership under the
> >US and other governments. Is this then anti-capitalistic?
> >
> >Is talking about government and scientific leadership anti-capitalistic?
>
> When you make the point that the scientists who created the basic net
> were not Netizens because they were paid to do so, yes. I know a good
> many of the early pioneers, and I would consider their motivations
> quite consistent with my understanding of netizenship.
>
I was talking about citizens.
Why do you distort what I say and claim I was talking about netizens?
I was asking you if government and scientific leadership is
anti-capitalist since you claimed that talking about public officials
and citizens is confirming your sense that the problem is
that there is anti-capitalist discussion going on on the netizens list.
The people who developed the Internet were working for government(s),
or on government contracts which is interesting as they had the ability
then to have a broader purpose than is often possible working for a
private company.
I was thinking that that is important to remember.
But instead you are jumping and drawing your conclusions and cutting
off any discussion.
Why do you think you can predict the conclusion of the discussion?
Why aren't your open to hearing a different point of view?
Why do you have to label a different point of view instead of trying
to sort out what is being said and stick to what is being said instead
of creating all sorts of other conclusions?
Is it that there is a different view of government and the value
of government, and of citizen and the desired activity of many
who are citizens?
I am trying to sort this out.
But I don't get the sense that you are.
Instead you seem hostile.
Why?
Ronda
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:43:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? grassroots
I thought as part of the discussion it would be useful to look
at some of what Michael found in his research that led him
to come up with the concept of netizen.
One aspect was grassroots.
Here is what he wrote in "The Net and the Netizen" paper
The Net brings people together. People put into connection with
other people can be powerful. There is power in numbers. The Net
allows an individual to realize his power. The Net, uncontrolled by
commercial entities, becomes the gathering, discussion and planning
center for many people.
The combined efforts of people interested in communication has
led to the development and expansion of the global communications
system. What's on the Net? Well -- Usenet, Free-Net, e-mail, library
catalogs, ftp sites, free software, electronic newsletters and
journals, Multi-User Domain/Dungeon (mud)/mush/moo, Internet Relay
Chat (IRC), the multimedia world wide web (WWW) and many kinds of data
banks. Different servers, like WWW, WAIS, and gophers attempt to order
and make utilizing the vast varieties and widespread information
easier. There exist both public and private services and sources of
information. The public and free services often come about through the
voluntary efforts of one or a few people. These technologies allow a
person to help make the world a better place by making his or her
unique contribution available to the rest of the world. People who
have been overlooked or have felt unable to contribute to the world,
now can. Also, these networks allow much more open and public
interaction over a much larger body of people than available
before. The common people have a unique voice -- which is now being
aired in a new way.
The emphasis is that this new machine introduces every single
person as someone special and in possession of a useful resource.
NETIZEN COMMENTS ON GRASSROOTS:
"Simple -- by access to a vast amount of information and an
enormous number of brains!" Brian May
"For a geographically sparse group as it is, MU* allows
people to get to know one another, the relevant newsgroup gives
a sense that there's a community out there and things are happening,
and an associated ftp site allows art and writing to be distributed."
Simon Raboczi
"In summary, nets have helped enormously in the dissemination of
information from people knowledgeable in certain areas which would be
difficult to obtain otherwise." Brent Edwards
"I get to communicate rapidly and cheaply with zillions of
people around the world." Rosemary Warren
The following examples help to show how this is possible.
People are normally unprotected from the profit desires of
large companies. Steven Alexander from California was using the Net
to try to prevent over charging at gas stations. This is an example of
the power of connecting people to uphold what is fair and in the best
interest of the common person in this society.
From: Steven Alexander
"I have started compiling and distributing (on the newsgroup
ca.driving) a list of gas prices at particular stations in California to
which many people will contribute and keep up to date, and which,
I hope, will allow consumers to counteract what many of us suspect
is the collusive (or in any case, price-gouging) behavior of the oil
companies."
A user from Germany also reported using the Net to muckrake. He
writes:
"A company said they were a [nonprofit organization].
Someone looked them up in the [nonprofit] Register, and they did not
exist there. Someone else said that he had contact with the person who
sent the letter, only under another company-name, and that he simply
ignored this person since he looked like a swindler. So they are
swindlers, and people from the Net proved it to us, we then of course
did not engage with them at all."
The Net has proven its importance in other contemporary critical
situations. As the only available line of communications with the rest
of the world, the Net helped defeat the attempted coup in the ex-Soviet
Union in 1990. The members of the coup either did not know about or
understand the role the Russian RELCOM network could play or the connections
proved resilient enough for information about the coup to be
communicated inside and out of the country in time to inform the world
and encourage resistance to the coup.(7)
The Net has also proven its value by providing an important medium
for students. Students participating in the Chinese Pro-Democracy
movement have kept in touch with others around the world via their
fragile connection to the Net. The Net provided an easy way of evading
government censors to get news around the world about events in China
and to receive back encouraging feedback. Such feedback is vital support
to keep the fight on when it seems impossible or wrong to do so.
In a similar way, students in France used the French Minitel system to
organize a successful fight against plans by the French government to
restrict admission to government subsidized universities.
The information flow on the Net is controlled by those who
use the Net. People actively provide the information that they
personally and other people want. There is a much more active form of
participation than what is provided for by other forms of mass media.
Television, radio, magazines are all driven by those who own and
determine who will write for them. The Net gives people a media they can
control. This control of information is a great power that has not been
available before to the common everyday person. For example, Declan
McCreesh describes how this makes possible access to the most up to date
information.
From: Declan McCreesh
"You get the most up to date info. that people around the
world can get their hands on, which is great. For instance, the media
report who wins a Grand Prix, what happened and not a great deal
more. On the net, however, you can get top speeds, latest car and
technology developments, latest rumors, major debates as to
whether Formula 1 or Indy cars are better etc."
The Net helps to make the information available more accurate
because of the many-to-many or broadcast and read and write
capability. That new capability, which is not normally very prevalent
in our society, allows an actual participant or observer to report
something. This capability gives the power of journalism or the
reporter to the individual. This new medium allows the source to
report. This is true because the medium allows everyone on-line to
make a contribution. The old media instead controls who reports and what
they say. The possibility of eyewitness accounts via the net can make the
information more accurate. Also this opens up the possibility for a
grassroots network. Information is passed from person to person around
the world. Thus German citizens could learn about the Chernobyl explosion
from the Net before the government decided to release the information to the
public via the media. The connection is people to people rather than
governments to governments. Citizen Journalists can now distribute to
more than those they know personally. The distribution of the writings
of ordinary people is the second step after the advent of the
inexpensive personal computer in the early 1980s. The personal
computer and printer allowed anyone to produce mass quantities of
documents. Personal publishing is now joined by wide personal
distribution.
Not only is there grassroots reporting, but the assumption that
filtering is necessary has been challenged. People can learn to sort
through the various opinions themselves. Steve Welch disagreed that the
Net is a source of more accurate information, but agreed that people
develop discriminatory reading skills.
From: Steve Welch:
"When you get more information from diverse sources, you
don't always get more accurate information. However, you do
develop skills in discerning accurate information. Or rather, you
do if you want to come out of the infoglut jungle alive."
Governments that rule based on control of information will succumb
eventually to the tides of democracy. As Dr. Sun Yat-Sen of the Chinese
Democracy Movement once said, "The worldwide democratic trend is mighty.
Those who submit to it will prosper and those who resist it will perish."
The Net reintroduces the basic idea of democracy as the grassroots people
power of Netizens. Governments can no longer easily keep information from
their people.
Many groups which do not have an established form of communications
available to them have found the Net to be a powerful tool. For example,
for people far away from their homeland, the Net provides a new link.
From: Godfrey Nolan
"The Net has immeasurably increased the quality of my life. I am
Irish, but I have been living in England for the past five years. It
is a lot more difficult to get information about Ireland than you
would expect. However a man called Liam Ferrie who works in Digital in
Galway, compiles a newspaper on the weeks events in Ireland and so I
can now easily keep abreast of most developments in Irish current
affairs, which helps me feel like I'm not losing touch when I go home
about twice a year. It is also transmitted to about 2000 Irish people
all over the first and third worlds."
From: Madhur K. Limdi
"I read your above posting and wanted to share my experience
with you. I have been a frequent reader of news in Usenet groups,
such as soc.culture.indian, misc.news.southasia. Both of these
keep me reasonably informed about the happenings in my home
country India."
Also in the United States, the Net has provide stable communications
for people of various religious and sexual persuasions. Many other
communities have also found the Net to be a excellent medium to help
increase communications:
From: Gregory G. Woodbury
"We will be going to a march on Washington and are
coordinating our plans and travel with a large number of other folks
around the country via e-mail and conversations on Usenet."
From: Jann VanOver
"I'm a member of a Buddhist organization and just found a
man in Berkeley who keeps a Mailing List that sends daily guidance
and discussions for this group. So I get a little religious boost when
I log on each day."
From: Carole E. Mah
"For me and for many of my friends, the Net is our main form of
communication. Almost every aspect of interpersonal communication on the
network has a gay/lesbian/bi aspect to it that forms a tight and intimate
acquaintanceship which sometimes even boils over into arguments and
enmities. This network of connections, friends, enemies, lovers, etc.
facilitates political goals that would not otherwise be possible
(organizing letter-writing campaigns about the Gays in the Military Ban
via the ACT-UP list, being able to send e-mail directly to the White
House, finding out about activism, bashing, etc. in other states and
around the world, etc)."
From: Robert Dean
"As a member of the science fiction community, I've met quite
a few people on the net, and then in person."
____________________________________________
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End of Netizens-Digest V1 #522
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