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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 512
Netizens-Digest Thursday, April 24 2003 Volume 01 : Number 512
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
[netz] Question for Luis
Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003
Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003
[netz] LEAVING THE LIST
Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards
Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST
Re: Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards
[netz] about what happened on the netizens list
Re: [netz] Question for Luis
Re: [netz] Question for Luis
Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:24:52 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: [netz] Question for Luis
I'll follow up on your answer, but might I ask how many email
messages you receive in a typical day?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:36:12 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003
>Mark: I am not familiar with the policies of "promed" at all. Howard
>is the one that
>suggested me to check on it and I will. However since he mentions
>that "promed" has
>restrictions on what can be e-mailed and posted I replied to him
>that then what's
>the use in posting any of their stuff.
Mostly, it's that their information very carefully balances being
extremely current with reasonable verification by a panel of
internationally recognized authorities. A post on PROMED is unlikely
to be a rumor.
I am on many lists where conspiracy theorists are constantly posting
their unsubstantiated views on government conspiracies, plots by
religions and the like. The same lists have useful content. How much
time must I spend sorting through the irrelevancies?
>According to Howard its a source of medical
>and epidemiological information.
> I think knowing
>about SARS is useful communications, because is a dangerous epidemic.
Luis,
Are you assuming that none of us has access to CNN? I keep a browser
window open to it at all times.
Now -- when you speak of "knowing" about SARS, what do you have in
mind? About all the CNN article says is there is an epidemic in some
areas. The article doesn't contain any guidelines for action by
individuals, although those do exist on websites such as www.cdc.gov.
What would you think people will do with the information you copied
and sent? Whenever I make a post to any list, I ask myself first --
will people be able to improve their knowledge because of what I am
posting? Are there actions they can take as a result of it? Is it
likely people have already gotten the material from other sources?
I see this list as a place to raise issues that then are discussed,
in the interest of finding solutions. You say "I am tired of getting
into angry debate and confrontations over every little thing that
pops up on the list."
I don't see any response to you as angry or confrontational. But if
there is going to be discussion and consensus, there will be
differences of views. There are likely to be (hopefully) polite
confrontations, out of which may come a product where the conflicts
have been resolved?
Howard
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:52:26 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003
Hello Howard: No, I am not assuming that some of you have no access to
CNN. But there might be someone else on the list who did not read the
article and then I thought it would be of interest for the person to read,
since it deals with a life threatening epidemic. As far as angry debate
and confrontation. You might not notice but your replies are often filled
with it, even with an article about SARS.
Right now you are confronting me with posting something about SARS.
Earlier you implied that my posting would somehow cause panic.
Every time anyone like Jay or myself post something it seems to draw an
unpleasant or angry reaction from you, because you seem to think it
doesn't belong on the list. So that's why I said to Mark that I am getting
tired of it, meaning that hey, there are better things in life to do than
to confront a seemingly upset individual on this list on a daily basis.
Luis
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
> >Mark: I am not familiar with the policies of "promed" at all. Howard
> >is the one that
> >suggested me to check on it and I will. However since he mentions
> >that "promed" has
> >restrictions on what can be e-mailed and posted I replied to him
> >that then what's
> >the use in posting any of their stuff.
>
> Mostly, it's that their information very carefully balances being
> extremely current with reasonable verification by a panel of
> internationally recognized authorities. A post on PROMED is unlikely
> to be a rumor.
>
> I am on many lists where conspiracy theorists are constantly posting
> their unsubstantiated views on government conspiracies, plots by
> religions and the like. The same lists have useful content. How much
> time must I spend sorting through the irrelevancies?
>
> >According to Howard its a source of medical
> >and epidemiological information.
>
> > I think knowing
> >about SARS is useful communications, because is a dangerous epidemic.
>
> Luis,
>
> Are you assuming that none of us has access to CNN? I keep a browser
> window open to it at all times.
>
> Now -- when you speak of "knowing" about SARS, what do you have in
> mind? About all the CNN article says is there is an epidemic in some
> areas. The article doesn't contain any guidelines for action by
> individuals, although those do exist on websites such as www.cdc.gov.
>
> What would you think people will do with the information you copied
> and sent? Whenever I make a post to any list, I ask myself first --
> will people be able to improve their knowledge because of what I am
> posting? Are there actions they can take as a result of it? Is it
> likely people have already gotten the material from other sources?
>
> I see this list as a place to raise issues that then are discussed,
> in the interest of finding solutions. You say "I am tired of getting
> into angry debate and confrontations over every little thing that
> pops up on the list."
>
> I don't see any response to you as angry or confrontational. But if
> there is going to be discussion and consensus, there will be
> differences of views. There are likely to be (hopefully) polite
> confrontations, out of which may come a product where the conflicts
> have been resolved?
>
> Howard
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:24:42 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST
Hello: Since some or many of my postings seem to cause discomfort,
unpleasant reactions, confrontations, etc. I have notified the Haubens
that I will leave this list. Taking into consideration various health
problems I have, such as high blood pressure and other health concerns,
I think it would even be unhealthy for me to remain.
Therefore I wish everyone on this list the best of luck in all your
endeavors.
Luis de Quesada
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:07:16 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards
HCB> You obviously know (X)HTML better than I do. Is there a capability by
HCB> which the client can state capabilities on login, so the server could
HCB> automatically switch to a low-bandwidth mode, or does that have to be
HCB> programmed explicitly?
HCB> I'm thinking of the Netizen with limited connectivity.
No. But you can offer two options (as today many sites do) - low
bandwidth (HTML only) and broadband (flash if needed or more images).
You can even offer the user text-only site, which I would prefer
sometimes...
Since server always send the same content to user, it would be
complicated to ask browser whatever bandwidth pages you prefer. It
would be even more complicated for webmaster to produce two separate
sites I guess.
Dynamic pages+databases offer solution for this though - You can
program the whole thing to output only text if requested or
images+html in other case.
I know almost nothing about accessibility standards, but from what I
remember there was some proposal on W3C site. (http://www.w3c.org)
Although all accessibility things were more content-oriented - filling
in ALTernative texts for images, TITLES for links or forms, creating
keyboard shortcuts to access different form-fields etc. But I am
getting too technical over here.
So, that's for today, Howard. ;-)
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- if you save the world too often, it begins to expect it -*
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:08:53 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST
I don't understand your reasons, I guess.
I don't think anybody was confronting you with something unpleasant.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- until we party again, my friend -*
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:35:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: gds@best.com (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards
Dan Duris wrote:
> HCB> You obviously know (X)HTML better than I do. Is there a capability by
> HCB> which the client can state capabilities on login, so the server could
> HCB> automatically switch to a low-bandwidth mode, or does that have to be
> HCB> programmed explicitly?
> HCB> I'm thinking of the Netizen with limited connectivity.
> No. But you can offer two options (as today many sites do) - low
> bandwidth (HTML only) and broadband (flash if needed or more images).
> You can even offer the user text-only site, which I would prefer
> sometimes...
>
> Since server always send the same content to user, it would be
> complicated to ask browser whatever bandwidth pages you prefer. It
> would be even more complicated for webmaster to produce two separate
> sites I guess.
Actually, in some cases, the server will send different content to the
user. For example, on some sites that use frames, when I use Lynx to
browse them, they will either tell me to get a frames-capable browser
or offer a link to a no-frames page.
> Dynamic pages+databases offer solution for this though - You can
> program the whole thing to output only text if requested or
> images+html in other case.
In theory, the browser and web server might negotiate options using
Accept: commands or some such. I'm just speculating here ... I would
have to look at a sample of browser and web server implementations to
see is this is feasible. I suspect this issue has come up on some W3C
forum if not an IETF forum.
- --gregbo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:19:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] about what happened on the netizens list
Dear Lou
I am sorry you had such a frustrating time.
I am sorry I didn't have the ability to be helpful
We should talk about what has happened on Friday at supper.
warmly
ronda
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:08:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jay Hauben <jrh@umcc.ais.org>
Subject: Re: [netz] Question for Luis
Hi,
I heard from Lou that he could not any longer participate in the netizens
list. His departure is a loss for the list.
The following question from Howard may be a piece of a growing difficulty
here:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
> I'll follow up on your answer, but might I ask how many email
> messages you receive in a typical day?
Why would a question like this be asked? In the context of a controversy
it would appear like a non sequitor. When someone looks for secondary
issues or questions it becomes hard to stay on the main questions.
I have not followed the discssion but this question seems out of place and
without constructive purpose.
I hope long time readers of this list will judge whether Lou has been
making a valuable contribution in the long time spirit of the list.
The point of netizens has always been to defend people's right to
contribute from their point of view to the ongoing discussion that seeks
to empower people to take part in the decisions that effect them. In the
past every effort has been made to make posters feel their contributions
were welcomed and respected no matter how much we might differ with them.
I am sad that I have not been able to join the debate and defend the
democratic environment where no one threatens unsubscription and no one
feels driven out.
I hope in a month or two to be able to rejoin the list and help it
continue its search for the way to a more genuine democracy respectful of
the mass of people as the best source of political decisions.
Take care.
Jay
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:39:11 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Question for Luis
>Hi,
>
>I heard from Lou that he could not any longer participate in the netizens
>list. His departure is a loss for the list.
>
>The following question from Howard may be a piece of a growing difficulty
>here:
>
>On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
>
>> I'll follow up on your answer, but might I ask how many email
>> messages you receive in a typical day?
>
>Why would a question like this be asked? In the context of a controversy
>it would appear like a non sequitor. When someone looks for secondary
>issues or questions it becomes hard to stay on the main questions.
The point I wanted to elaborate upon was to find out if Luis
routinely receives large volumes of emails. If he did not, I wanted
to compare and contrast the experience of working with the large
volume of mail that comes from lists without any posting guidelines.
>
>I have not followed the discssion but this question seems out of place and
>without constructive purpose.
>
>I hope long time readers of this list will judge whether Lou has been
>making a valuable contribution in the long time spirit of the list.
>
>The point of netizens has always been to defend people's right to
>contribute from their point of view to the ongoing discussion that seeks
>to empower people to take part in the decisions that effect them. In the
>past every effort has been made to make posters feel their contributions
>were welcomed and respected no matter how much we might differ with them.
My question to you, Jay, is whether any results are expected from
these contributions. I have made numerous, and I believe
substantive, posts about real Internet issues affecting the digital
divide, regulatory issues, and others. It was my intention to seek
some work areas for the group, areas where a contribution to the
process actually could be made.
As you point out, people should be empowered to take part in
decisions that affect them. I see such empowerment as goal-directed.
You speak of political decisions -- sometimes there are going to be
decisions that are not universally accepted. Is there no room for
dissent in what you see as empowerment?
It also depends how you define welcome and respect. I can certainly
value an individual, and still consider their point completely
invalid. Luis, it appeared, took any constructive criticism of his
points as personal attacks, whether they were meant that way or not.
I tried to find a way to have a constructive exchange of ideas, but I
could never find a way to get around the defensiveness.
I don't think it's inappropriate to bring up real-world technical
limitations in proposals, such as whether something that works with
tens or hundreds of people will work with thousands or millions -- or
will work with large numbers of messages.
>
>I am sad that I have not been able to join the debate and defend the
>democratic environment where no one threatens unsubscription and no one
>feels driven out.
>
>I hope in a month or two to be able to rejoin the list and help it
>continue its search for the way to a more genuine democracy respectful of
>the mass of people as the best source of political decisions.
>
>Take care.
>
>Jay
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:48:27 EDT
From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com
Subject: Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST
- --part1_145.fe3b591.2bd8fedb_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 4/23/03 6:10:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lgd1@columbia.edu writes:
> Hello: Since some or many of my postings seem to cause discomfort,
> unpleasant reactions, confrontations, etc. I have notified the Haubens
> that I will leave this list. Taking into consideration various health
> problems I have, such as high blood pressure and other health concerns,
> I think it would even be unhealthy for me to remain.
> Therefore I wish everyone on this list the best of luck in all your
> endeavors.
> Luis de Quesada
>
Luis, my assumption was that everyone was going to grow and adapt once they
had a better glimpse of the bigger picture. Everyone's combined experience
helps to generate this picture. The only thing that I have fundamentally
disagreed with is what you believe the purpose of this list to be. Albeit
this disagreement is not a trivial issue, I believe in tolerance and
compromise.
Honestly Luis, I value your depth of experience but have been perpetually
discouraged by your trenchant cynicism of the, yes, imperfect political
frameworks we must _practically_ work within to pursue Netizen objectives.
Why can't we just dare to do great things first, then do them, and complain
last? Then when we complain, we complain about how hard it was to accomplish
the 'unaccomplishable' feat over a beer. That is where I stand.
Lord knows, I personally don't want to be held partly responsible for
anyone's decision to leave.
This is a really touchy subject here.
Larry
- --part1_145.fe3b591.2bd8fedb_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/23/03 6:10:49 PM Eastern Daylight=
Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hello: Since some or many of my=
postings seem to cause discomfort,<BR>
unpleasant reactions, confrontations, etc. I have notified the Haubens<BR>
that I will leave this list. Taking into consideration various health<BR>
problems I have, such as high blood pressure and other health concerns=
,<BR>
I think it would even be unhealthy for me to remain.<BR>
Therefore I wish everyone on this list the best of luck in all your<BR>
endeavors.<BR>
Luis de Quesada<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Luis, my assumption was that everyone was going to grow and adapt once they=20=
had a better glimpse of the bigger picture. Everyone's combined experi=
ence helps to generate this picture. The only thing that I have fundam=
entally disagreed with is what you believe the purpose of this list to be.&n=
bsp; Albeit this disagreement is not a trivial issue, I believe in tolerance=
and compromise.<BR>
<BR>
Honestly Luis, I value your depth of experience but have been perpetually di=
scouraged by your trenchant cynicism of the, yes, imperfect political framew=
orks we must _practically_ work within to pursue Netizen objectives. <=
BR>
<BR>
Why can't we just dare to do great things first, then do them, and complain=20=
last? Then when we complain, we complain about how hard it was to acco=
mplish the 'unaccomplishable' feat over a beer. That is where I stand.=
<BR>
<BR>
Lord knows, I personally don't want to be held partly responsible for anyone=
's decision to leave.<BR>
<BR>
This is a really touchy subject here.<BR>
<BR>
Larry<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
- --part1_145.fe3b591.2bd8fedb_boundary--
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #512
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