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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 477
Netizens-Digest Tuesday, April 8 2003 Volume 01 : Number 477
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:00:58 EDT
From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
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In a message dated 4/7/03 12:01:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lindeman@bard.edu writes:
> Actually, my main gripe with Jay is that he is mostly keeping quiet, instead
> of
> addressing serious substantive concerns of list members. I have not tried
> to
> shut him or anyone else up. I don't believe I ever said that he was
> demeaning
> himself. And I have no "confederates" on the list.
>
> Mark
>
I would like to hear more from Jay myself.
Larry
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/7/03 12:01:52 PM Eastern Daylight=
Time, lindeman@bard.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Actually, my main gripe with Ja=
y is that he is mostly keeping quiet, instead of <BR>
addressing serious substantive concerns of list members. I have not tr=
ied to <BR>
shut him or anyone else up. I don't believe I ever said that he was de=
meaning <BR>
himself. And I have no "confederates" on the list.<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I would like to hear more from Jay myself.<BR>
<BR>
Larry</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:16:12 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
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Hello Larry: I also value your friendship and presence in netizens.
However we do have differences of opinions and those differences are
brought forth in this forum because of its democratic nature and debated
on and so forth. We do have a difference in the perception of what this
list is or ought to be. I do not call the free exchanges of ideas or my
fighting for the right to post whatever "masturbation". And by the way I
find the use of that word in our list a bit distasteful, however you
used it and it is your right to do so. I also disagree when you bring up
censorship, self-censorship, etc. Netizens as a democratic forum does
not stand for censorship in any form or shape. As an old fighter for
democracy I want to caution you what seem to be, according to your
postings, your political philosophy, like you can't show distrust in
elected officials, etc. They seem to me a bit dictatorial. The germans,
the russians, the cubans and the iraqis, just to mention a few, all
traveled down the "no criticism to those in power road" and all were
devoured by tyrants. May I suggest you go back to democracy 101 and
brush up on it? Its not about taking crap from those in power silently.
Take care,
Lou D.
AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/7/03 9:57:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lgd1@columbia.edu writes:
>
>
>> Hello: I am glad you recognize that you, Howard and Larry do not
>> have powers to
>> censor. As you heard the Haubens and particularly Ronda, netizens is
>> a vehicle for
>> communications and a vehicle for democracy, for freedom of
>> expression. To move to
>> something else as you suggest, because you do not want to read about
>> opinions
>> contrary to the war,or because such postings are perceived or
>> misinterpreted as
>> not a mission of netizens is acquiescing to censorship, its saying
>> don't write
>> about this any more because its bothering me or goes against my
>> opinion. You also
>> have the right not to read, or simply ignore what's been written and
>> you have the
>> right to reply in another posting.To write or post about the war in
>> Iraq is very
>> much a netizens mission and concern. Ronda, Jay and I and any other
>> netizen will
>> write about the war as long as we want to. You Howard, Larry and
>> Dan can also
>> write what you want to about it pro-or con, that is democracy, you
>> have the
>> undisputable right to post whatever you want since our forum is
>> democratic. The
>> only thing I beg of you and Howard and any other netizen is to stop
>> the insults,
>> like co-dependent, "Jay demeaning himself because he posts against
>> the war" etc.
>> But in a democracy you can also post insults, but I must warn that
>> they do not
>> create healthy debate and they inevitably provoke angry and
>> irrational reactions,
>> which does our list and netizens no good, that is also a way of
>> destroying the
>> list. I did not misunderstand you when you angrily replied to Jay
>> and Ronda's
>> postings accusing them of destroying the list. Not to talk about
>> events, hinders
>> communications and is what actually destroys the list.
>> Luis de Quesada
>
> Dear Luis:
>
> I probably answered this in another post or so; I am getting to these
> posts at a slower rate than they are being created. This past day,
> there have been probably 20 posts -- higher than average.
>
> I know what the problem is. At which point this list attracts more
> than 20 or 30 different entries per day, and no one knows what this
> list is really about, the focus will degenerate into noise. There
> will be debate over truly non-germane issues. I really don't think
> even you will appreciate having to mine through posts and arguments
> that really don't contribute to the enhancement of the quality of life
> of the Netizen.
>
> The only reason why I am here is to understand how the Internet is
> developing so that I can eventually help influence policy. I want to
> understand and help develop 'digital law.' I am here to make change.
> If I am introducing something to complain about, it is only to
> illustrate a problem that I am looking forward to solving. And
> perhaps I would be looking to enlist the support of those who post
> here to help me in that pursuit.
>
> Luis, our freedom or rather luxury to discuss anything that we want
> will practically vary with contributor load. The fewer people that
> post, the more divergent we can be. The more people that post, the
> less divergent we can be.
>
> You have to assume that we are being read by potentially hundreds of
> people on any given day. We all have to provide some kind of
> leadership or else we will lose the list.
>
> We all have to self-censor so that the list can represent a legitimate
> scholarly resource and so that it may truly honor the memory of
> Michael Hauben. I feel obligated to help continue his work.
>
> Honestly, it would be interesting to consider a year's worth of this
> list -- to watch as a problem is introduced and defined and refined.
> It would be entertaining to see how distributed minds can address that
> problem and provide solutions. It would be gratifying to see how
> these solutions that we discussed over a year's time are implemented
> worldwide. You could even publish that archival material. It would
> have practical value at least in terms of providing a real example of
> how distributed processing can work.
>
> I want to contribute to something that has marketable value. Why do
> you think the level of language here is above colloquial? There is a
> reason for that. I am not a foppish 'tart.' We have an obligation to
> be precise so as to be useful.
>
> Lastly, regarding my expectations here, I am 'results-oriented.' If I
> am going to spend time here writing, I ultimately want to see some
> results. Otherwise it is all just masturbation. I am not for that.
> I am for fecundity.
>
> And Luis, we are all friends here. Otherwise, it is truly edifying to
> read from you.
>
> Please, please, don't be so cross. When I saw the mound of words,
> without the necessary formation of readily digestible paragraphs, I
> knew immediately that we were in for a 'thrashing.'
>
> Larry
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Hello Larry: I also value your friendship and presence in netizens. However
we do have differences of opinions and those differences are brought forth
in this forum because of its democratic nature and debated on and so forth.
We do have a difference in the perception of what this list is or ought
to be. I do not call the free exchanges of ideas or my fighting for the
right to post whatever "masturbation". And by the way I find the use of
that word in our list a bit distasteful, however you used it and it is
your right to do so. I also disagree when you bring up censorship, self-censorship,
etc. Netizens as a democratic forum does not stand for censorship in any
form or shape. As an old fighter for democracy I want to caution you what
seem to be, according to your postings, your political philosophy, like
you can't show distrust in elected officials, etc. They seem to me a bit
dictatorial. The germans, the russians, the cubans and the iraqis, just
to mention a few, all traveled down the "no criticism to those in power
road" and all were devoured by tyrants. May I suggest you go back
to democracy 101 and brush up on it? Its not about taking crap from
those in power silently.
<br>Take care,
<br>Lou D.
<p>AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>In a message dated
4/7/03 9:57:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:</font></font>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Hello:
I am glad you recognize that you, Howard and Larry do not have powers to</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>censor. As you heard the Haubens and
particularly Ronda, netizens is a vehicle for</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>communications and a vehicle for democracy,
for freedom of expression. To move to</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>something else as you suggest, because
you do not want to read about opinions</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>contrary to the war,or because such
postings are perceived or misinterpreted as</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>not a mission of netizens is acquiescing
to censorship, its saying don't write</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>about this any more because its bothering
me or goes against my opinion. You also</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>have the right not to read, or simply
ignore what's been written and you have the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>right to reply in another posting.To
write or post about the war in Iraq is very</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>much a netizens mission and concern.
Ronda, Jay and I and any other netizen will</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>write about the war as long as we
want to. You Howard, Larry and Dan can also</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>write what you want to about it pro-or
con, that is democracy, you have the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>undisputable right to post whatever
you want since our forum is democratic. The</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>only thing I beg of you and Howard
and any other netizen is to stop the insults,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>like co-dependent, "Jay demeaning
himself because he posts against the war" etc.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>But in a democracy you can also post
insults, but I must warn that they do not</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>create healthy debate and they inevitably
provoke angry and irrational reactions,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>which does our list and netizens no
good, that is also a way of destroying the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>list. I did not misunderstand you
when you angrily replied to Jay and Ronda's</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>postings accusing them of destroying
the list. Not to talk about events, hinders</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>communications and is what actually
destroys the list.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Luis de Quesada</font></font></blockquote>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Dear Luis:</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I probably answered this in another
post or so; I am getting to these posts at a slower rate than they are
being created. This past day, there have been probably 20 posts --
higher than average.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I know what the problem is. At
which point this list attracts more than 20 or 30 different entries per
day, and no one knows what this list is really about, the focus will degenerate
into noise. There will be debate over truly non-germane issues.
I really don't think even you will appreciate having to mine through posts
and arguments that really don't contribute to the enhancement of the quality
of life of the Netizen.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>The only reason why I am here is to
understand how the Internet is developing so that I can eventually help
influence policy. I want to understand and help develop 'digital
law.' I am here to make change. If I am introducing something
to complain about, it is only to illustrate a problem that I am looking
forward to solving. And perhaps I would be looking to enlist the
support of those who post here to help me in that pursuit.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Luis, our freedom or rather luxury
to discuss anything that we want will practically vary with contributor
load. The fewer people that post, the more divergent we can be.
The more people that post, the less divergent we can be.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>You have to assume that we are being
read by potentially hundreds of people on any given day. We all have
to provide some kind of leadership or else we will lose the list.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>We all have to self-censor so that
the list can represent a legitimate scholarly resource and so that it may
truly honor the memory of Michael Hauben. I feel obligated to help
continue his work.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Honestly, it would be interesting to
consider a year's worth of this list -- to watch as a problem is introduced
and defined and refined. It would be entertaining to see how distributed
minds can address that problem and provide solutions. It would be
gratifying to see how these solutions that we discussed over a year's time
are implemented worldwide. You could even publish that archival material.
It would have practical value at least in terms of providing a real example
of how distributed processing can work.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I want to contribute to something that
has marketable value. Why do you think the level of language here
is above colloquial? There is a reason for that. I am not a
foppish 'tart.' We have an obligation to be precise so as to be useful.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Lastly, regarding my expectations here,
I am 'results-oriented.' If I am going to spend time here writing,
I ultimately want to see some results. Otherwise it is all just masturbation.
I am not for that. I am for fecundity.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>And Luis, we are all friends here.
Otherwise, it is truly edifying to read from you.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Please, please, don't be so cross.
When I saw the mound of words, without the necessary formation of readily
digestible paragraphs, I knew immediately that we were in for a 'thrashing.'</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Larry</font></font></blockquote>
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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:20:42 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
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Hello Larry: Want to do something great? Be truly democratic and preach
in favor of open criticism of those in power who abuse their
constituencies and their power, thinking that they privately own the
office they were elected to temporarily occupy and against the bosses
all those little Sadams that pollute corporate america, that would be
something great.
Lou D.
AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/7/03 11:42:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lgd1@columbia.edu writes:
>
>
>> As to asking yourself "so what" I do not know what you mean by that.
>> But I still
>> must point out to you, again, that any attempt on your part or any
>> one else's to
>> persuade or prevent me or any netizen to stop posting about the war
>> or anything
>> they want to post will be met with a reply. I am not Jay, who kept
>> quiet when you
>> and your confederates chose to insult him and shut him up by telling
>> him he was
>> "demaning himself". With me you don't get away with it. Understand?
>> Luis de Quesada
>>
>> lindeman@bard.edu wrote:
>>
>> >Luis,
>> >
>> >I respectfully disagree with just about everything in your message,
>> especially
>> >your assertions of not having misunderstood me.
>> >
>> >So now I must put the question back to myself: So what?
>> >
>> >Mark
>
> Am I one of Mark's confederates? I am afraid I know the answer to
> that one.
>
> ... just being facetious. But really Luis; C'mon. I cannot really
> speak for anyone else but I think we all fervently want to do
> something great here. Otherwise we should all just pack up and join a
> chat room at AOL.
>
> Larry
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Hello Larry: Want to do something great? Be truly democratic and preach
in favor of open criticism of those in power who abuse their constituencies
and their power, thinking that they privately own the office they were
elected to temporarily occupy and against the bosses all those little Sadams
that pollute corporate america, that would be something great.
<br>Lou D.
<p>AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>In a message dated
4/7/03 11:42:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:</font></font>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>As
to asking yourself "so what" I do not know what you mean by that. But I
still</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>must point out to you, again, that
any attempt on your part or any one else's to</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>persuade or prevent me or any netizen
to stop posting about the war or anything</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>they want to post will be met with
a reply. I am not Jay, who kept quiet when you</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>and your confederates chose to insult
him and shut him up by telling him he was</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>"demaning himself". With me you don't
get away with it. Understand?</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Luis de Quesada</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>lindeman@bard.edu wrote:</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>Luis,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>I respectfully disagree with just
about everything in your message, especially</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>your assertions of not having misunderstood
me.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>So now I must put the question back
to myself: So what?</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>Mark</font></font></blockquote>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Am I one of Mark's confederates?
I am afraid I know the answer to that one.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>... just being facetious. But
really Luis; C'mon. I cannot really speak for anyone else but I think
we all fervently want to do something great here. Otherwise we should
all just pack up and join a chat room at AOL.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Larry</font></font></blockquote>
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