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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 465
Netizens-Digest Monday, April 7 2003 Volume 01 : Number 465
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
[netz] Post of Bounced message
Re: [netz] Post of Bounced message
Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 22:36:24 -0400
From: "Luis G. Dequesada" <lgd42@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Mark: Realizing you may have included yourself in the "disrespect" I still
do not like to be called a co-dependent. A co-dependant is someone who among
other things cannot make a decision for himself and depends on someone else
for virtually everything, so on that one, speak for yourself! I do insist on
democracy and I also insist on not being censored. Netizens being a vehicle
for communications is also a vehicle for democracy and respect for each
other's views. Because of our life long struggle for democracy in Havana,
Cuba,which extends all the way back to Machado's Cuba, the remnants of the
De Quesada Family, my family, live in endless exile or diaspora, almost
pennyless, but proud, because we did not bow under the pressures and
censorship of three dictators, who ravaged Cuba, Machado, Batista and now
Fidel Castro, in other words we did not want to be their "co-dependents" as
some were and still are. My family and I have paid a heavy price for
insisting on democracy and we will continue to do so until the day we die
and possibly will continue to advocate democracy from beyond the grave, no
matter what the consequence, as good old Hyman Roth told Michael Corleone in
the Godfather Part 1,at the penthouse in Havana,"this country's had rebels
for many years, believe me its in their blood". You can take old Hyman's
words to the bank! We will always be rebels. We will not be censored or
intimidated by anyone, anyone, or any protocol! I will continue to post my
opinions on netizens because as Ronda and Jay have pointed out, this is what
my dear friend and leader Michael, who we miss so much intended. Bear in
mind that I do not recognize you, Howard or Larry as owners of this list or
as having the right or power to censor any fellow netizen who posts anything
on this list and I don't care if its an article or posting about Mc Donald's
he or she chooses to write about. I also regard anyone who chooses to write
about whatever on this list, not as a destroyer of this list, as you have
suggested but as a contributor to the list. I will listen to what is being
said and learn from it and feel free to ask questions and to post a reply.
Your attempts to censor is what destroys this list, not what contributes to
it. Also the disrespectful remark that Jay is somehow "demeaning himself" in
posting articles who do not reflect someone elses view on the war,does not
go without condemnation on my part and labeling for what it really is a
total lack of respect for a man who has done so much, even putting his own
sustenance on the line, to defend the rights of others to speak He has a
right to post whatever he feels like it on the list, that's the way the
Haubens, the creators of this list,always intended from day one.
Now going back the the war in Iraq, I still adhere to what I said in my
original posting, a few days before hostilities started in Iraq. Right or
wrong it is my belief that inspections and diplomacy were not given a chance
to work. Who's to blame,Sadam more than anyone else, but there have been
others. It is a war of choice. Now that the unfortunate choice was made and
blood is being spilled as we correspond, I have no other choice but to stand
behind our boys, in Iraq and pray to our Lord for their safe return home and
I will honor the flag which I swore loyalty to, but again that does not mean
agreeing to any administration's foreign policy in other words, being an
administration's co-dependent as Washington does not do my thinking for me
as I am a free man and one who will not be intimidated by any protocol or
misinterpretation of it.
Luis de Quesada
>From: Jay Hauben <jrh@umcc.ais.org>
>To: lgd42@hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
>Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:01:32 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>
>On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Mark Lindeman wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > >Hello Mark: You talk about renaming the list "co-dependents?" I thought
>our initial
> > >intention was to communicate in a respectful manner, but if you want a
>good example
> > >of co-dependency, read what you wrote in the last paragraph of your
>posting.
> > >Luis
> > >
> > Luis, if I'm not mistaken, that was precisely the point of the last
> > paragraph of my posting. If it was in any way disrespectful, I
> > certainly included myself in the disrespect.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 22:36:09 -0400
From: "Luis G. Dequesada" <lgd42@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Mark: Realizing you may have included yourself in the "disrespect" I still
do not like to be called a co-dependent. A co-dependant is someone who among
other things cannot make a decision for himself and depends on someone else
for virtually everything, so on that one, speak for yourself! I do insist on
democracy and I also insist on not being censored. Netizens being a vehicle
for communications is also a vehicle for democracy and respect for each
other's views. Because of our life long struggle for democracy in Havana,
Cuba,which extends all the way back to Machado's Cuba, the remnants of the
De Quesada Family, my family, live in endless exile or diaspora, almost
pennyless, but proud, because we did not bow under the pressures and
censorship of three dictators, who ravaged Cuba, Machado, Batista and now
Fidel Castro, in other words we did not want to be their "co-dependents" as
some were and still are. My family and I have paid a heavy price for
insisting on democracy and we will continue to do so until the day we die
and possibly will continue to advocate democracy from beyond the grave, no
matter what the consequence, as good old Hyman Roth told Michael Corleone in
the Godfather Part 1,at the penthouse in Havana,"this country's had rebels
for many years, believe me its in their blood". You can take old Hyman's
words to the bank! We will always be rebels. We will not be censored or
intimidated by anyone, anyone, or any protocol! I will continue to post my
opinions on netizens because as Ronda and Jay have pointed out, this is what
my dear friend and leader Michael, who we miss so much intended. Bear in
mind that I do not recognize you, Howard or Larry as owners of this list or
as having the right or power to censor any fellow netizen who posts anything
on this list and I don't care if its an article or posting about Mc Donald's
he or she chooses to write about. I also regard anyone who chooses to write
about whatever on this list, not as a destroyer of this list, as you have
suggested but as a contributor to the list. I will listen to what is being
said and learn from it and feel free to ask questions and to post a reply.
Your attempts to censor is what destroys this list, not what contributes to
it. Also the disrespectful remark that Jay is somehow "demeaning himself" in
posting articles who do not reflect someone elses view on the war,does not
go without condemnation on my part and labeling for what it really is a
total lack of respect for a man who has done so much, even putting his own
sustenance on the line, to defend the rights of others to speak He has a
right to post whatever he feels like it on the list, that's the way the
Haubens, the creators of this list,always intended from day one.
Now going back the the war in Iraq, I still adhere to what I said in my
original posting, a few days before hostilities started in Iraq. Right or
wrong it is my belief that inspections and diplomacy were not given a chance
to work. Who's to blame,Sadam more than anyone else, but there have been
others. It is a war of choice. Now that the unfortunate choice was made and
blood is being spilled as we correspond, I have no other choice but to stand
behind our boys, in Iraq and pray to our Lord for their safe return home and
I will honor the flag which I swore loyalty to, but again that does not mean
agreeing to any administration's foreign policy in other words, being an
administration's co-dependent as Washington does not do my thinking for me
as I am a free man and one who will not be intimidated by any protocol or
misinterpretation of it.
Luis de Quesada
>From: Jay Hauben <jrh@umcc.ais.org>
>To: lgd42@hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
>Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:01:32 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>
>On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Mark Lindeman wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > >Hello Mark: You talk about renaming the list "co-dependents?" I thought
>our initial
> > >intention was to communicate in a respectful manner, but if you want a
>good example
> > >of co-dependency, read what you wrote in the last paragraph of your
>posting.
> > >Luis
> > >
> > Luis, if I'm not mistaken, that was precisely the point of the last
> > paragraph of my posting. If it was in any way disrespectful, I
> > certainly included myself in the disrespect.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 00:08:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jay Hauben <jrh@umcc.ais.org>
Subject: [netz] Post of Bounced message
This message was not distributed when it was received by the list because
the list program detected a word in it on line 9 about leaving the list.
It was sent by Luis de Quesada:
Hello Ronda: I am glad that you pointed out that censorship or attempts to
censor by some have existed in our list. I must also point out that these
attempts to censor have not been exempt of insults, like Mark's suggestion
that we change our list's name from netizens to "co-dependents list" a
suggestion replied to with alacrity by Howard, while Jay has referred to as
"demeaning himself" everytime he posts any article that is critical of the
present war in Iraq. Also those who have posted such articles or comments
have been accused of "destroying the list", with the threat of Howard's
un subscription as a result of non-compliance by the censored, being
brandished in a terrorist fashion (talk about AlQaeda).So we've seen and
read about elsewhere, censorship is not exempt of insults and trumped up
charges, sort of like adding insult to injury so double damage is inflicted
on the censored or mentally manipulated.
Luis de Quesada
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:42:19 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Post of Bounced message
At 12:08 AM -0400 4/7/03, Jay Hauben wrote:
>This message was not distributed when it was received by the list because
>the list program detected a word in it on line 9 about leaving the list.
>It was sent by Luis de Quesada:
>
>Hello Ronda: I am glad that you pointed out that censorship or attempts to
>censor by some have existed in our list. I must also point out that these
>attempts to censor have not been exempt of insults, like Mark's suggestion
>that we change our list's name from netizens to "co-dependents list" a
>suggestion replied to with alacrity by Howard, while Jay has referred to as
>"demeaning himself" everytime he posts any article that is critical of the
>present war in Iraq. Also those who have posted such articles or comments
>have been accused of "destroying the list", with the threat of Howard's
>un subscription as a result of non-compliance by the censored, being
>brandished in a terrorist fashion (talk about AlQaeda).So we've seen and
>read about elsewhere, censorship is not exempt of insults and trumped up
>charges, sort of like adding insult to injury so double damage is inflicted
>on the censored or mentally manipulated.
>Luis de Quesada
I'm confused both at the attributions and their interpretations --
and forgive me if I contributed to them.
If I may presume to speak for Mark, the reference to codependency
struck me as a reference to those, including myself, who really don't
want to be involved in a particular thread, perhaps as witness that
we feel it's not appropriate. I know that there have been cases where
I felt that not commenting in a given thread was the wisest thing for
me to do, yet a later post caused me, emotionally, to post to it. By
that second post, I "enabled" the behavior, which is my understanding
of the meaning of codependency -- providing a support to behavior
that the codependent really wishes would stop.
The reference to terrorism completely confuses me. If that is
directed to the possibility of unsubscribing, I fail to see the
relevance between "emigration" as a matter of conscience and
"terrorism" as a means to do harm. Perhaps I flatter myself that
withdrawing my contributions would do harm, but that is in sorrow,
not in anger. If I reached a point -- and I have not -- where I felt
my contributions would be welcome only if they were "politically
correct," then my continuing would be involuntary servitude or
codependency.
I believe there is a perception by at least some list members that to
take other than a particular anti-war, anti-globalization,
US-as-imperialist position implies one cannot be a good Netizen. I
hope I am totally wrong in that assumption. I would merely ask that
before people generalize what makes a good Netizen, they would
consider that a Netizen may make a decision in good conscience that
is not the same as one's own.
For example, while I am not wildly in favor of the intervention in
Iraq, which I can't make as binary as pro-war or anti-war, I do feel
indirectly criticized that taking that position means I can't be a
Real Netizen. ;-)
Incidentally, it is with considerable respect for all that I say I
have observed that everyone here has managed to keep their
policy-level views on the war quite separate from their views of the
troops and civilians on either side. Of course I have a tendency to
think first of my own -- but if I were in the lines, I'd like to
think that I would give the same level of medical treatment to an
Iraqi or a British soldier, or to an Iraqi civilian.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:23:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: lindeman@bard.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Quoting "Luis G. Dequesada" <lgd42@hotmail.com>:
> Mark: Realizing you may have included yourself in the "disrespect" I still
> do not like to be called a co-dependent.
Howard's recent post perhaps explains this more clearly than I could. I think
if you return to the original context, it will be clear that I was referring
particularly to Howard and myself.
> Bear in
> mind that I do not recognize you, Howard or Larry as owners of this list or
> as having the right or power to censor any fellow netizen who posts
> anything
> on this list and I don't care if its an article or posting about Mc
> Donald's
> he or she chooses to write about.
Of course you don't. We don't have the right or power to censor any fellow
netizen.
> Your attempts to censor
This is such an utter misunderstanding of my posts that I despair of
communicating with you.
> Now going back the the war in Iraq, I still adhere to what I said in my
> original posting, a few days before hostilities started in Iraq. Right or
> wrong it is my belief that inspections and diplomacy were not given a
> chance to work.
I agree, more or less. The (or one) question for the Netizens list is, so
what? How many times do we have to inform each other of our views on the war
before it is time to move on to something else? And when we do, what other
things do we move on to?
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 08:07:02 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Hello: I respectfully disagree. Ronda has made it cristal clear that
discussions on the war in Iraq and its consequences affecting communications
and the possible infringements in freedom of expression here are areas of
concern to all netizens, as intended by the creators of this list and not any
self appointed moderator or owner of this list.
To write off any such discussion as irrelevant is an attempt to censorship,
something netizens as a vehicle of democracy are against, because it hinders
communications.
Luis de Quesada
Dan Duris wrote:
> RH> And when I last looked, the editorial was *no* longer accessible online
> RH> at the Times of India, though I don't know whether that was temporary
> RH> or permanent.
>
> This could be interesting as potential censorship, but not the
> editorial itself as it's just another anti-war editorial... If I was
> supposed to post those from European writers or actors or whoever,
> Netizens list would be lost in so many views.
>
> I agree with Howard that you can discuss war on Iraq in specific
> forums or on specific mailing lists on this topic, but it's clearly
> irrelevant to discuss it here. It doesn't have anything to do with
> Netizens. And I am not a bit interested how they named their editorial
> in India.
>
> dan
> --------------------------
> email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
> ICQ: 17932727
>
> *- "ye shall not rob from the house i have built" thief1 -*
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 09:07:41 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd)
Hello: I am glad you recognize that you, Howard and Larry do not have powers to
censor. As you heard the Haubens and particularly Ronda, netizens is a vehicle for
communications and a vehicle for democracy, for freedom of expression. To move to
something else as you suggest, because you do not want to read about opinions
contrary to the war,or because such postings are perceived or misinterpreted as
not a mission of netizens is acquiescing to censorship, its saying don't write
about this any more because its bothering me or goes against my opinion. You also
have the right not to read, or simply ignore what's been written and you have the
right to reply in another posting.To write or post about the war in Iraq is very
much a netizens mission and concern. Ronda, Jay and I and any other netizen will
write about the war as long as we want to. You Howard, Larry and Dan can also
write what you want to about it pro-or con, that is democracy, you have the
undisputable right to post whatever you want since our forum is democratic. The
only thing I beg of you and Howard and any other netizen is to stop the insults,
like co-dependent, "Jay demeaning himself because he posts against the war" etc.
But in a democracy you can also post insults, but I must warn that they do not
create healthy debate and they inevitably provoke angry and irrational reactions,
which does our list and netizens no good, that is also a way of destroying the
list. I did not misunderstand you when you angrily replied to Jay and Ronda's
postings accusing them of destroying the list. Not to talk about events, hinders
communications and is what actually destroys the list.
Luis de Quesada
lindeman@bard.edu wrote:
> Quoting "Luis G. Dequesada" <lgd42@hotmail.com>:
>
> > Mark: Realizing you may have included yourself in the "disrespect" I still
> > do not like to be called a co-dependent.
>
> Howard's recent post perhaps explains this more clearly than I could. I think
> if you return to the original context, it will be clear that I was referring
> particularly to Howard and myself.
>
> > Bear in
> > mind that I do not recognize you, Howard or Larry as owners of this list or
> > as having the right or power to censor any fellow netizen who posts
> > anything
> > on this list and I don't care if its an article or posting about Mc
> > Donald's
> > he or she chooses to write about.
>
> Of course you don't. We don't have the right or power to censor any fellow
> netizen.
>
> > Your attempts to censor
>
> This is such an utter misunderstanding of my posts that I despair of
> communicating with you.
>
> > Now going back the the war in Iraq, I still adhere to what I said in my
> > original posting, a few days before hostilities started in Iraq. Right or
> > wrong it is my belief that inspections and diplomacy were not given a
> > chance to work.
>
> I agree, more or less. The (or one) question for the Netizens list is, so
> what? How many times do we have to inform each other of our views on the war
> before it is time to move on to something else? And when we do, what other
> things do we move on to?
>
> Mark
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #465
******************************
