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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 480
Netizens-Digest Tuesday, April 8 2003 Volume 01 : Number 480
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] More or less democracy
Re: [netz] Question about the list
Re: [netz] censorship
Re[2]: [netz] privatization
Re[2]: [netz] censorship
Re[2]: [netz] Question about the list
Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy
Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy
Re: [netz] censorship
Re: What do you hope is the purpose of the Netizens list:
(Was: [netz] censorship)
Re: [netz] Question about the list
Re: [netz] Question about the list
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:33:56 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] More or less democracy
>Howard: If you call democracy a permissive kindergarten so be it.
I didn't say that. I said that an environment where anyone could say
anything without constraint is a permissive kindergarten.
Even the most permissive, participatory forms of government, such as
the classic New England town meetings, have some constraints in order
to be sure all are heard, that actual proposals result, and that
appropriate actions are taken. My local county board meets in open
session where anyone can listen but only witnesses are called,
followed by a period where any comment will be heard -- except that
there are time limits (typically 2 hours for discussion, with
individuals limited to 10 minutes or so). When there were no time
limits, one individual would often monopolize the entire comment
period.
>It is your right
>to do so, but I still call it democracy. You seem to have a problem with
>permissiveness, I don't. Apparently you seem to like to control
>people, I don't. So
>there we have differences of opinions.
>Lou D.
>
I agree that we disagree.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:11:30 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Question about the list
Hello: You could've said that the co-dependent name calling and your comedy after
that was not intended for the Haubens and I, it sounded like it was. So I'm glad
you clarified it and I was wrong. I can imagine you have hacktivist capabilities
as well as being some sort of an explosives expert. I am glad and relieved that
you say you are not trying to intimidate me or use your skills against me. Dirty
Harry used to say to his victims, "go ahead make my day",pointing his humongous
revolver at them, being non violent I am beyond those practices or threats.
Since our debate is getting nowhere you are not going to convince or intimidate
me a and since this is consuming far more of my time than I can afford, I will
recess. However I will continue to post whatever I like since its my right as a
netizen and let anyone reply as is their right to do so.
Its a shame and I regret that a misunderstanding went so far as cause all this
heated debate.
Lou D.
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
> >Howard: I do not take any criticism, replies, etc. to what I say as
> >bullyism. I
> >respect criticism, the right to reply freedom of speech, etc. I did
> >object to what
> >you and Mark were doing a few days ago, when Mark I think referred
> >to Jay, Ronda
> >and I because of our postings and even to himself as co-dependents
> >and then you
> >receiving those statements with alacrity and even writing a little
> >comedy about
> >them, something like "would you please press the elevator button for
> >me, because I
> >am mentally unable to", or something to that effect. I regard that
> >as an insult and
> >a lack of respect for the Haubens as myself.
>
> First, my response with the codependent joke was to Mark, not you.
> I'm amazed that anyone will take it seriously.
>
> Second, the quote was more that the codependent gets someone guilty
> enough to push the button for them. That is actually a fair
> statement when considered in the context of Mark and I finding
> ourselves guiltily drawn into discussions we had meant to ignore.
>
> Third, if you regard humor not even directed at you or the Haubens as
> an insult and lack of respect, you have my sincere pity. Someone once
> suggested that the requisite for political correctness is the total
> removal of the sense of humor.
>
> On a very practical basis, the oppressed people of totalitarian
> states have historically made extensive use of humor as a coping
> mechanism. I'm familiar with many such in Slavic and Jewish
> contexts. Most Cubans I've met have been delightful, passionate (in a
> good sense) people, and I suspect there is a wonderful body of
> contemporary political humor there.
>
> >As far as postings are concerned my position is as always. I insist
> >on democracy
> >here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or
> >whatever if I
> >want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it.
> >I have made a
> >special request that the name calling stop.
>
> To be perfectly honest, I have not seen anyone calling anyone else
> names. Indeed, I have been extremely careful to avoid any
> descriptors, even when some might be quite acceptable to the subject,
> such as "activist."
>
> Luis, if I intended to insult you, there would not be the slightest
> question in anyone's mind that I was doing so.
>
> >I hope it did and will stop and if it
> >will not, I can also take that, because in a democracy even insults
> >are allowed,
> >however if you resort to them and to making fun of others, then expect angry
> >reactions and replies, expect to be challenged. You will not have a
> >last word on
> >that.
>
> >As far as hacktivism, I am not afraid of hacktivism, it is terrorism.
>
> As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between the two. I,
> personally, have the skills to damage infrastructure with high
> explosives or with computer networks. I could cause far more damage
> and be less likely to be stopped or apprehended using hacking.
>
> >I am
> >not afraid of terrorism, computers and servers can be restored
>
> Try telling that to the hospital patients who are endangered because
> their medical records have been altered, or had a denial of access,
> due to hacktivism. The most recent case was in Washington State.
>
> >and many times
> >hacktivists are located and arrested
>
> Extremely rare, unfortunately.
>
> >and tried and the threat of any sort of legal
> >retribution to stop my postings, does not affect me either, because
> >if it did, I
> >wouldn't even be in this forum. As far as workplace pressures I am
> >not afraid of
> >them either, but they do exist. Jay was a victim of them and that is
> >why we are
> >trying to keep the internet free of the fenagling and corrupt
> >bosses. I hope you're
> >not trying to scare me with hacktivism and other retributions?
>
> Listen carefully. I am not trying to scare or threaten you. I am
> trying to establish that I am engaging in what I consider appropriate
> intellectual exchange, and I am trying to show how different
> oppression would be.
>
> >I am not
> >transferring the responsibility of for justifying those services to
> >the Haubens,
> >but I think they're more educated in that area than I am.
> >To finalize this useless debate, I can assure you of one thing, if
> >your intention
> >is to control this list, to mold it to your opinions, you will be
> >replied to and
> >challenged.
> >Luis
>
> If a participant in any list doesn't intend to have their opinions
> have some effect on the list, why bother to participate? Molding it
> to opinion can be a participatory, consensus process.
>
> But if you still want to challenge, I can think of a few responses
> from the "Dirty Harry" movie.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:14:03 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] censorship
- --------------63CBE8CD602F13E279E3D58C
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Hello Larry: I just told Howard these postings are consuming far more of
my time than I can really afford. I am bugging out for a while. I tried
to bring democracy and respect back to the list. So you do your
postings, I'll do mine and good luck.
Lou D.
AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/7/03 12:49:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lgd1@columbia.edu writes within a retort to Mark:
>
>
>> Like I said and I will say it
>> over and over again, the attempt to censor was there, although I
>> realize it was
>> not an enforceable censorship because thank our lucky stars you and
>> your friends
>> do not have that power on this list, if you did Ronda, Jay and I
>> would've been
>> kicked out of it a long time ago.
>> Luis
>
> Luis, it would not be a benefit for anyone to be removed from this
> list. As I said probably yesterday, I ultimately believe in the
> professionalism of all who post here or at least their intention to be
> professional. That is why at least I am still here.
>
> At this point, I do think we are using the wrong word; we are not
> trying to censor, we are trying to focus. Let us not suppress
> anything, but let us concurrently encourage a specific agenda.
>
> Is not that language more pleasing to you?
>
> Larry
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<html>
Hello Larry: I just told Howard these postings are consuming far more of
my time than I can really afford. I am bugging out for a while. I tried
to bring democracy and respect back to the list. So you do your postings,
I'll do mine and good luck.
<br>Lou D.
<p>AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>In a message dated
4/7/03 12:49:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes within
a retort to Mark:</font></font>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Like
I said and I will say it</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>over and over again, the attempt to
censor was there, although I realize it was</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>not an enforceable censorship because
thank our lucky stars you and your friends</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>do not have that power on this list,
if you did Ronda, Jay and I would've been</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>kicked out of it a long time ago.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Luis</font></font></blockquote>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Luis, it would not be a benefit for
anyone to be removed from this list. As I said probably yesterday,
I ultimately believe in the professionalism of all who post here or at
least their intention to be professional. That is why at least I
am still here.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>At this point, I do think we are using
the wrong word; we are not trying to censor, we are trying to focus.
Let us not suppress anything, but let us concurrently encourage a specific
agenda.</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Is not that language more pleasing
to you?</font></font>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Larry</font></font></blockquote>
</html>
- --------------63CBE8CD602F13E279E3D58C--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:03:38 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] privatization
LDQ> how's czech and slovakia's economy doing lately? Perhaps you can tell us
Czech economy is doing better than Slovak and it's nothing wrong about
it. Czech rep. was more industrialized than Slovakia since the
beginning of 20th century , so it's just common development.
I can tell you I am very happy we have democracy and big corporations
are coming here. If we didn't we would still have goverment-owned
telecommunication monopoly. And I can tell you that they are still
doing problems for other companies and so I have to pay for every
minute connected and doesn't have any other alternatives - cable, ADSL
or even wireless internet. It's too expensive and it would stay that
way for next 1 or 2 years. But thanks to BIG corporations all of you in
States could be connected in 4 hours to new telephone line and pay only
monthly fee for local calls. I was in US last summer and I can tell
you that 25 dolars per month is great, when your minimal wage is 6.75
(California). I pay 11 dollars monthly fee and then have to pay 1.5
dollar for each hour spent connected. And average monthly income in
Slovakia is about 320 dollars, I guess...
So, thanks for asking, our economy is doing all right. And thanks to
our early EU membership I will likely go somewhere else since it's
sometimes quite communist-like with telecommunications here. And
internet for me and my work is necessity.
Free market rulez!
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- if you save the world too often, it begins to expect it -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:03:55 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] censorship
I was always mentioning totalitarian states in connection to internet
in those countries, since I have been writing my amster thesis on that.
LDQ> if you like. It is your right to do so since this is a democratic forum, this is America and
LDQ> this is netizens, Gustav Husak is not in charge here!
You are being childish over here. But paraphrasing you: "It's your
choice to be childish."
As explanation for others: Husak was Czechoslovakia's last communist
president.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- until we party again, my friend -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:58:42 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] Question about the list
LDQ> here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or whatever if I
LDQ> want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it. I have made a
But there are special lists for cooks and to send recipes! I have to
repeat it: it's not about censorship, it's not about spamming this
list with numerous replies. On some lists there is even rule not to
send more than e.g. 3 messages a day. It would be nice to see it here,
(although I am sending more sometimes) since it could bring more
focused and comprehendible messages.
It's all about tying to be more focused as Larry (?) said.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- the way is: libertarianism -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:01:48 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy
HCB> I agree that we disagree.
:))))))))) Quote of the day!
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- win sux, use mr. red hat :-) -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:20:55 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy
>HCB> I agree that we disagree.
>
>:))))))))) Quote of the day!
>
>dan
Dan, on a really good day, I can disagree with myself. :-)
But I've had more fun when someone walks up to me and says "I think
you are a lying bastard."
"Yes."
"What? You agree you're a lying bastard?"
"No, but I am willing to agree that you think that. I've never met
you before, but you haven't lied to me as far as I know, so I'll
accept that's what you think."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:48:20 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] censorship
Hello: I am well aware of who Gustav Husak was or still is, providing he is still alive,that's why I
used the analogy, I know he was Czechoslovakia last communist boss. You're right its my choice to be
childish. I will post as I please.I was telling Howard that these postings are taking more time than
I can really afford, so I'm bugging out.
Lou D.
Dan Duris wrote:
> I was always mentioning totalitarian states in connection to internet
> in those countries, since I have been writing my amster thesis on that.
>
> LDQ> if you like. It is your right to do so since this is a democratic forum, this is America and
> LDQ> this is netizens, Gustav Husak is not in charge here!
> You are being childish over here. But paraphrasing you: "It's your
> choice to be childish."
>
> As explanation for others: Husak was Czechoslovakia's last communist
> president.
>
> dan
> --------------------------
> email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
> ICQ: 17932727
>
> *- until we party again, my friend -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:23:24 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re: What do you hope is the purpose of the Netizens list: (Was: [netz] censorship)
I thought this list was dealing mostly with cross-over of social
sciences and technology (internet mostly). Also since I am interested
in cooperative nature of internet, I subscribed to read about this,
too.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- this is cookie. good cookie, sweet cookie, email cookie. -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:56:43 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Question about the list
My last reply to you:
If that's the way you see it, I respect your opinion. However I will not adhere to it and I
will post whatever I feel about posting, because that's what the Haubens intended this
forum to be. This is just out of principle though, my postings are and will continue to be
far and few between, so if I were you I wouldn't worry at all about them and besides
they're out of focus and most likely, uneducated, so why worry? I really wasn't going to
post anymore, before this whole debate started. But now its ended its finished, I cannot
devote any more time to it. I see you use a libertarian logo? Trying to prevent a topic
from being posted does not sound as too libertarian to me, but then life is full of
surprises.
Take care and good luck to you.
Lou D.
Dan Duris wrote:
> LDQ> here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or whatever if I
> LDQ> want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it. I have made a
> But there are special lists for cooks and to send recipes! I have to
> repeat it: it's not about censorship, it's not about spamming this
> list with numerous replies. On some lists there is even rule not to
> send more than e.g. 3 messages a day. It would be nice to see it here,
> (although I am sending more sometimes) since it could bring more
> focused and comprehendible messages.
>
> It's all about tying to be more focused as Larry (?) said.
>
> dan
> --------------------------
> email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
> ICQ: 17932727
>
> *- the way is: libertarianism -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:02:30 -0400
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Question about the list
Hello Howard: One last thing about the misunderstandings that caused all the
controversy and for clarification. What did you mean when you told Jay he was
"demaning himself" by posting the anti-war article?
Lou D.
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
> >Howard: I do not take any criticism, replies, etc. to what I say as
> >bullyism. I
> >respect criticism, the right to reply freedom of speech, etc. I did
> >object to what
> >you and Mark were doing a few days ago, when Mark I think referred
> >to Jay, Ronda
> >and I because of our postings and even to himself as co-dependents
> >and then you
> >receiving those statements with alacrity and even writing a little
> >comedy about
> >them, something like "would you please press the elevator button for
> >me, because I
> >am mentally unable to", or something to that effect. I regard that
> >as an insult and
> >a lack of respect for the Haubens as myself.
>
> First, my response with the codependent joke was to Mark, not you.
> I'm amazed that anyone will take it seriously.
>
> Second, the quote was more that the codependent gets someone guilty
> enough to push the button for them. That is actually a fair
> statement when considered in the context of Mark and I finding
> ourselves guiltily drawn into discussions we had meant to ignore.
>
> Third, if you regard humor not even directed at you or the Haubens as
> an insult and lack of respect, you have my sincere pity. Someone once
> suggested that the requisite for political correctness is the total
> removal of the sense of humor.
>
> On a very practical basis, the oppressed people of totalitarian
> states have historically made extensive use of humor as a coping
> mechanism. I'm familiar with many such in Slavic and Jewish
> contexts. Most Cubans I've met have been delightful, passionate (in a
> good sense) people, and I suspect there is a wonderful body of
> contemporary political humor there.
>
> >As far as postings are concerned my position is as always. I insist
> >on democracy
> >here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or
> >whatever if I
> >want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it.
> >I have made a
> >special request that the name calling stop.
>
> To be perfectly honest, I have not seen anyone calling anyone else
> names. Indeed, I have been extremely careful to avoid any
> descriptors, even when some might be quite acceptable to the subject,
> such as "activist."
>
> Luis, if I intended to insult you, there would not be the slightest
> question in anyone's mind that I was doing so.
>
> >I hope it did and will stop and if it
> >will not, I can also take that, because in a democracy even insults
> >are allowed,
> >however if you resort to them and to making fun of others, then expect angry
> >reactions and replies, expect to be challenged. You will not have a
> >last word on
> >that.
>
> >As far as hacktivism, I am not afraid of hacktivism, it is terrorism.
>
> As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between the two. I,
> personally, have the skills to damage infrastructure with high
> explosives or with computer networks. I could cause far more damage
> and be less likely to be stopped or apprehended using hacking.
>
> >I am
> >not afraid of terrorism, computers and servers can be restored
>
> Try telling that to the hospital patients who are endangered because
> their medical records have been altered, or had a denial of access,
> due to hacktivism. The most recent case was in Washington State.
>
> >and many times
> >hacktivists are located and arrested
>
> Extremely rare, unfortunately.
>
> >and tried and the threat of any sort of legal
> >retribution to stop my postings, does not affect me either, because
> >if it did, I
> >wouldn't even be in this forum. As far as workplace pressures I am
> >not afraid of
> >them either, but they do exist. Jay was a victim of them and that is
> >why we are
> >trying to keep the internet free of the fenagling and corrupt
> >bosses. I hope you're
> >not trying to scare me with hacktivism and other retributions?
>
> Listen carefully. I am not trying to scare or threaten you. I am
> trying to establish that I am engaging in what I consider appropriate
> intellectual exchange, and I am trying to show how different
> oppression would be.
>
> >I am not
> >transferring the responsibility of for justifying those services to
> >the Haubens,
> >but I think they're more educated in that area than I am.
> >To finalize this useless debate, I can assure you of one thing, if
> >your intention
> >is to control this list, to mold it to your opinions, you will be
> >replied to and
> >challenged.
> >Luis
>
> If a participant in any list doesn't intend to have their opinions
> have some effect on the list, why bother to participate? Molding it
> to opinion can be a participatory, consensus process.
>
> But if you still want to challenge, I can think of a few responses
> from the "Dirty Harry" movie.
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #480
******************************
