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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 442
Netizens-Digest Wednesday, March 26 2003 Volume 01 : Number 442
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re[3]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
Re[3]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
[netz] Many voices online and off
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:42:51 +0100
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re[3]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
HCB> 1. Server physically in Germany and operated by a German citizen.
Nazi propaganda is forbidden in Germany, so server hosting provider
would be required to shut it down.
HCB> 2. Server physically in Korea and operated by a French citizen resident
HCB> in France.
If French law forbids to operate Nazi website, then this French could
be find guilty under French law. Otherwise French government/courts
can't don anything about content in Korea.
HCB> 3. Server in the US and operated by a German citizen in the UK.
No problem here, is there any?
HCB> 4. Not a specific dedicated server, but materials questionable by French
HCB> law available on Yahoo, and the French goverment demanding either
HCB> Yahoo make it unavailable in France or take it off completely. There
HCB> is, incidentally, no technically reliable way to know the physical
HCB> location of a web client.
This could be problem for French government, but since Yahoo is not
registered in France (or is it?) it is not supposed to do anything.
The other thing is that physical location of client is really unknown
- - it could be easily changed via proxy or anonymizer...
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- win sux, use mr. red hat :-) -*
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:05:00 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re[3]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
>HCB> 1. Server physically in Germany and operated by a German citizen.
>Nazi propaganda is forbidden in Germany, so server hosting provider
>would be required to shut it down.
>
>HCB> 2. Server physically in Korea and operated by a French
>citizen resident
>HCB> in France.
>If French law forbids to operate Nazi website, then this French could
>be find guilty under French law. Otherwise French government/courts
>can't don anything about content in Korea.
>
>HCB> 3. Server in the US and operated by a German citizen in the UK.
>No problem here, is there any?
Very much so to the French (a real example) if it lets Nazi
propaganda into France.
>
>HCB> 4. Not a specific dedicated server, but materials
>questionable by French
>HCB> law available on Yahoo, and the French goverment demanding either
>HCB> Yahoo make it unavailable in France or take it off
>completely. There
>HCB> is, incidentally, no technically reliable way to know the physical
>HCB> location of a web client.
>This could be problem for French government, but since Yahoo is not
>registered in France (or is it?) it is not supposed to do anything.
>The other thing is that physical location of client is really unknown
>- it could be easily changed via proxy or anonymizer...
My point in posting these things is that there can be significant
problems of content control that cannot be affected by national
governments.
Now, again only using the demonstrations about CNN as an example, how
would demonstrators in any of these countries have any real effect?
Question for Netizens: is there a particular role for "protest" with
respect to Internet (and other media content), or does it come back
to what I'll very loosely say a consumer/provider model where Larry
has made some comments?
At this point, I'm hoping even to frame a meaningful set of
questions. I'm not yet to the point of having answers.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:54:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Hauben <jrh@umcc.ais.org>
Subject: [netz] Many voices online and off
Hi,
Ronda and I were among the over 250,000 New Yorkers who marched on
Saturday against the bombing and invasion of Iraq. The march resembled
the Internet. There were 1000's of home made signs voicing a large
spectrum of opinion and understanding of the tragedy of this war. I
also saw two signs in support of this war. There was not much media
coverage but the people saw each other and expressed a kinship with
those opposed to the war everywhere. A short article on this march
appears on Telepolis with an interesting set of comments in German.
Here is the url:
http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/14450/1.html
The article is titled:
Giant Protest March in New York City Condemns the U.S. Government Attack
on Iraq
and begins:
"Our grief is not a cry for war", one sign proclaimed. "New York City
is not for war", another protester explained. These were but two of
the sea of homemade signs and people that filled the streets of New
York City on Saturday, March 22, 2003. Protesters stretched at least
two miles across Broadway, marching from 42nd Street to Washington
Square Park."
A longer version of the article if anyone is interested is at:
http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/other/march22protest.txt
The Internet and connections with people around the world are helping
many people in the USA to know they are not alone in the fight against
the reactionary policies and practices of the Bush regime. Ronda and I had
a sign which said "Communication Not Annihilation, Stop the War Against
Iraq, Netizens Unite". It is interesting to us that the Times of India had
an editorial with the title "Netizens Unite" which has attracted a large
number of comments. The concept of a global net citizenship combined with
local citizenship is helpful to me in my effort to understand the
significance of the simultaneous global expressions of commitment to stop
this war and the other war plans of the Bush regime.
It will come as no surprise to those on this list how important the
Internet has been to the organization and coordination of such marches
and the informing of the marchers.
It would make a valuable study to gather the 1000's of slogans at this and
other marches and see what the patterns and understandings behind them
are. And then search for a correlation with the contents of the main
web sites and newsgroups that the protesters participate in.
My heart goes out to the Iraqi people and the military personnel and their
families whose lives are being shattered by this war. The turnout in NYC
lifted my spirit because it gave me an idea of the number of people who
will not rest until this unneccessary and unjustifiable war is stopped.
Take care.
Jay
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:37:54 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
>Hi,
>
>Ronda and I were among the over 250,000 New Yorkers who marched on
>Saturday against the bombing and invasion of Iraq. The march resembled
>the Internet.
Ummmm...we have rather different perceptions of what constitutes "the
Internet." I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but pleading for precision
in definition. You will note that I recently posted some background
on Internet infrastructure, the prerequisite for anything else that
happens on the net. Where are the routers, the DNS servers, the GMPLS
switches, in a demonstration?
I'd really, really suggest that trying to equate the Internet to
traditional demonstrations may be a significant bar to meaningful
communication with some people on the list -- I certainly put myself
in that category. I have refrained from suggesting that other,
generally technically oriented Internet experts join this list until
I feel their time will not be wasted wading through materials that
has peripheral or no relationship to network-enabled political
participation. Every time I see another post detailing a
demonstration, I suppress a strong urge to unsubscribe.
There are many venues for discussing demonstrations. There are
limited venues for discussing interactions between
electronic/photonic networks and the political process. The beauty
of the Internet is the way that people can get information
efficiently by "tuning in" to multiple, specific discussions, rather
than wading through unrelated subjects in a vi
>There were 1000's of home made signs voicing a large
>spectrum of opinion and understanding of the tragedy of this war. I
>also saw two signs in support of this war.
I'm not trying to be other than a semantic analyst here, but I would
be much more comfortable if the comparison were not between "tragedy"
and "support." "Tragedy" versus "comedy" would be classic if not
particularly useful. "Support" does not exclude "tragedy" -- many
people who support military intervention in specific situations
regard such intervention as a necessary tragedy. That attitude is
most common, in my experience, among professional soldiers.
>[snip one-sided references to a position on the war
>
>The Internet and connections with people around the world are helping
>many people in the USA to know they are not alone in the fight against
>the reactionary policies and practices of the Bush regime.
Sir, I say to you, with respect and recognizing that this may be the
first time I have used profanity in a post to this list, bullshit.
"Regime" implies that a given government came to power through
extra-constitutional (or other national equivalent) means. Gore and
Bush campaigned for election inside the system. There were election
problems, resolved within the system.
Just because you don't like the positions taken by a government
doesn't make it a "regime." Under US law, it has full legitimacy.
OF COURSE that doesn't mean you have every right to disagree with its
decisions, but, until you show me a line in the Constitution showing
how "public sentiment", or anything except the electoral and
representative process, with judicial review, is the legitimate means
of making the policy of the United States: Bullshit. Again.
>Ronda and I had
>a sign which said "Communication Not Annihilation, Stop the War Against
>Iraq, Netizens Unite". It is interesting to us that the Times of India had
>an editorial with the title "Netizens Unite" which has attracted a large
>number of comments. The concept of a global net citizenship combined with
>local citizenship is helpful to me in my effort to understand the
>significance of the simultaneous global expressions of commitment to stop
>this war and the other war plans of the Bush regime.
>
>It will come as no surprise to those on this list how important the
>Internet has been to the organization and coordination of such marches
>and the informing of the marchers.
That is a valid and ideology-free point of discussion.
>
>It would make a valuable study to gather the 1000's of slogans at this and
>other marches and see what the patterns and understandings behind them
>are. And then search for a correlation with the contents of the main
>web sites and newsgroups that the protesters participate in.
_that_ would seem a legitimate network-enabled topic. Specific proposals?
>
>My heart goes out to the Iraqi people and the military personnel and their
>families whose lives are being shattered by this war. The turnout in NYC
>lifted my spirit because it gave me an idea of the number of people who
>will not rest until this unneccessary and unjustifiable war is stopped.
I regret the tragedy to all people on all sides. I consider the
characterization of any war, on this list, as "unnecessary and
unjustifiable" to be an inappropriate and ideological distraction
from dealing with issues of network-enabled political participation.
>
>Take care.
>
>Jay
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:59:21 -0500
From: Mark Lindeman <lindeman@bard.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
Howard wrote (in response to Jay),
>> The Internet and connections with people around the world are helping
>> many people in the USA to know they are not alone in the fight against
>> the reactionary policies and practices of the Bush regime.
>
>
> Sir, I say to you, with respect and recognizing that this may be the
> first time I have used profanity in a post to this list, bullshit.
> "Regime" implies that a given government came to power through
> extra-constitutional (or other national equivalent) means. Gore and
> Bush campaigned for election inside the system. There were election
> problems, resolved within the system.
As a political scientist, I can't resist pointing out that (from our
standpoint, at least) the word "regime" is not _supposed_ to imply
anything about legitimacy. A regime is a form of government, an
administration, or a prevailing social system or pattern (paraphrasing
the American Heritage Dictionary). As for what Jay intended, my reading
is pretty close to Howard's.
And, in truth, I am similarly annoyed. It seems to me that Howard has
been making a perfectly plausible argument about the appropriate scope
of the list, and Jay hasn't offered a clear alternative that I have
registered, and yet much of the content of his post simply disregards
what Howard has said. At best, it seems like waving a red flag in front
of a bull (no disrespect to Howard intended!). It makes me feel that my
own efforts to discern and contribute to a common purpose for the list,
as well as Howard's and other people's efforts, are futile.
Mark Lindeman
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:28:00 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
>Howard wrote (in response to Jay),
>
>>>The Internet and connections with people around the world are helping
>>>many people in the USA to know they are not alone in the fight against
>>>the reactionary policies and practices of the Bush regime.
>>
>>
>>Sir, I say to you, with respect and recognizing that this may be
>>the first time I have used profanity in a post to this list,
>>bullshit. "Regime" implies that a given government came to power
>>through extra-constitutional (or other national equivalent) means.
>>Gore and Bush campaigned for election inside the system. There
>>were election problems, resolved within the system.
>
>As a political scientist, I can't resist pointing out that (from our
>standpoint, at least) the word "regime" is not _supposed_ to imply
>anything about legitimacy. A regime is a form of government, an
>administration, or a prevailing social system or pattern
>(paraphrasing the American Heritage Dictionary).
Mea culpa, my bad, and take ten points off the political science
exam. Raising my eyes to the heavens, I _hate_ it when perfectly
legitimate, precise terms somehow become epithets. I'm afraid that's
happened to "regime".
There's enough confusion, on an international list, that I try very
carefully to avoid the terms "government" and "administration", with
their opposite meanings in much of Europe and the US, or perhaps
between representative and parliamentary systems. Neither one of
these has lost precise meaning, other than you must know the context
to know _which_ meaning.
People, perhaps, could use a laugh. My house was built in 1948. The
original owners put on a badly constructed addition (i.e., sticking
newspapers in the wall for insulation) in the early fifties.
In 1990, we demolished and rebuilt the extension. Demolition stopped
for a couple of hours, however, when the crew picked up some of the
newspapers stuffed in the wall and read the headlines. It took us an
hour or two to stop laughing hysterically, and then we decided it was
time to call it a day and have some beer.
You see, the newspaper headline were reporting on Douglas MacArthur's
dismissal from the Korean War command and his triumphant return
parade in New York.
The key headline:
"MacA Comes Home. New York gives Gay Welcome"
>As for what Jay intended, my reading is pretty close to Howard's.
>
>And, in truth, I am similarly annoyed. It seems to me that Howard
>has been making a perfectly plausible argument about the appropriate
>scope of the list, and Jay hasn't offered a clear alternative that I
>have registered, and yet much of the content of his post simply
>disregards what Howard has said. At best, it seems like waving a
>red flag in front of a bull (no disrespect to Howard intended!).
Well, given the epithet I chose to use, perhaps the metaphor is not
completely misplaced. :-)
>It makes me feel that my own efforts to discern and contribute to a
>common purpose for the list, as well as Howard's and other people's
>efforts, are futile.
>
>Mark Lindeman
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:15:53 +0100
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
JH> My heart goes out to the Iraqi people and the military personnel and their
Military personnel is just another group in support of Saddam's
dictatorship.
By the way, your email seems quite similar to one Ronda sent when she
too part in first protest, I guess you had even same banner there...
I am not so interested in mass protests anyway. I don't think this
list is about Iraq, although it seems so in last few weeks.
PS How many people are subscribed to Netizens?
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- "ye shall not rob from the house i have built" thief1 -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:47:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Hauben <jrh@umcc.ais.org>
Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off
Hi,
I wrote:
> > The march resembled the Internet.
Howard responded:
>
> Ummmm...we have rather different perceptions of what constitutes "the
> Internet."
I think Howard is maybe correct. My understanding of the Internet is that
it is more than the technology. For me the Internet is the users and the
technology in a symbiotic like relation producing a system and practice of
communication. That communication has for human society 2 important
characteristics. It has the potential to be universal and to provide
uncensored speech so that all contributions can be made and considered. It
is in that sense that I wrote that the march resembled the Internet. The
sea of homemade signs was my point of resemblence. And the active
participation in an important question for the US society was my
connection with netizenship. For me netizenship is both taking
responsibilty for the health and spread of the net and for the health of
one's society as well.
Howard continued
> ... There are limited venues for discussing interactions between
> electronic/photonic networks and the political process.
That maybe true but we may differ over what is meant by "the political
process". For me the march was a piece of that process. So seeking the
connection of the march to the Internet is worthwhile. And I consider the
Internet as I said above a communications network currently
electronic/photonic but important because of the communication.
Understanding the technology is crucial to helping the Internet to grow
and it is valuable to have Howard and others who do on this list.
I wrote
> >
> >It would make a valuable study to gather the 1000's of slogans at this and
> >other marches and see what the patterns and understandings behind them
> >are. And then search for a correlation with the contents of the main
> >web sites and newsgroups that the protesters participate in.
>
Howard replied
> _that_ would seem a legitimate network-enabled topic. Specific proposals?
>
You might look at:
http://www.lib.gcal.ac.uk/researchcollections/antiwar.htm
where slogans are being collected. I don't know of anyone who has yet
undertaken the correlation work I proposed.
I wrote:
> >
> >My heart goes out to the Iraqi people and the military personnel and their
> >families whose lives are being shattered by this war.
By "military personnel" I meant British and American fighters. I included
the Iraqi military as part of the Iraqi people.
So I agreed with Howard or he was agreeing with me when he wrote:
> I regret the tragedy to all people on all sides.
Perhaps we can agree we are searching to understand and contribute to the
Internet and netizenship. Then our differences may be over how might a
netizen act in so troubling a time as this appears to be to me.
Take care.
Jay
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #442
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