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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 436
Netizens-Digest Wednesday, March 19 2003 Volume 01 : Number 436
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
[netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
[netz] Re: Views and
Re: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
[netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE
Re: [netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE
[netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:08:42 EST
From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
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In a message dated 3/17/03 1:44:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, hcb@gettcomm.com
writes:
> If the list becomes a general place to vent non-network-related
> political concerns, I will leave it. I can't speak to others.
>
> I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with
> Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of
> DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then
> the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is
> irrelevant and I'll look for another venue.
>
Hey! We really don't want this to happen. I really don't think you want
Howard to leave. I don't.
Look, we don't want to alienate anyone here, especially the technical people.
We should be here trying to find solutions, not to vent. Please... Let us
keep this a sacred place. I came here for professional reasons. I truly
wanted to understand the political dynamics of the Internet as it develops.
This is a truly wondrous age. For the sake of research (and Michael was
about research) we really must keep the dialog professional which means
professional.
Let us avoid desultory political exposition or diatribe.
What can we learn from these events that inspire passion and rage? What
structure can we abstract from classes of similar events that can aid us in
devising an internetwork that can enhance the quality of our lives and for
citizens of the world?
People come here worldwide expecting professional dialog. I believe I have
used the word professional, it is now five times.
We're all intelligent here. Let's take that rage and channel it into
constructive endeavor. Whatdaya say?
Ronda has been very professional. I must say that I am very pleased and
honored that she has invited me here. She was correct in using appropriate
language to suggest that those who are interested in discussing the war
create another place to conduct that sort of discourse. There is nothing
wrong with it. It just does not belong here.
Larry
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/17/03 1:44:19 PM Eastern Standard=
Time, hcb@gettcomm.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If the list becomes a general p=
lace to vent non-network-related <BR>
political concerns, I will leave it. I can't speak to others.<BR>
<BR>
I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with <BR>
Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of <BR>
DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then <BR>
the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is <BR>
irrelevant and I'll look for another venue.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Hey! We really don't want this to happen. I really don't think y=
ou want Howard to leave. I don't.<BR>
<BR>
Look, we don't want to alienate anyone here, especially the technical people=
. We should be here trying to find solutions, not to vent. Pleas=
e... Let us keep this a sacred place. I came here for profession=
al reasons. I truly wanted to understand the political dynamics of the=
Internet as it develops. This is a truly wondrous age. For the=20=
sake of research (and Michael was about research) we really must keep the di=
alog professional which means professional. <BR>
<BR>
Let us avoid desultory political exposition or diatribe. <BR>
<BR>
What can we learn from these events that inspire passion and rage? Wha=
t structure can we abstract from classes of similar events that can aid us i=
n devising an internetwork that can enhance the quality of our lives and for=
citizens of the world?<BR>
<BR>
People come here worldwide expecting professional dialog. I believe I=20=
have used the word professional, it is now five times.<BR>
<BR>
We're all intelligent here. Let's take that rage and channel it into c=
onstructive endeavor. Whatdaya say?<BR>
<BR>
Ronda has been very professional. I must say that I am very pleased an=
d honored that she has invited me here. She was correct in using appro=
priate language to suggest that those who are interested in discussing the w=
ar create another place to conduct that sort of discourse. There is no=
thing wrong with it. It just does not belong here.<BR>
<BR>
Larry</FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:36:02 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Thanks, Larry, Sometimes someone else expresses my position even
better than I did, and this is one of those times.
I really want to discuss the enabling of communications. I am,
however, incredibly tired in getting off into the agendas of -- I
don't have the correct term, so substitute whatever you want --
"progressive activists." I'd be equally tired of dealing with the
agenda of neo-Nazis, of Enron executives, of anything you like.
Martin Luther King dreamed of a time when one would be judged by the
color of one's character, not the color of his skin. The Internet is
the closest we have come to that. The continuing viability of the
Internet itself, as well as possibly undreamed-of empowerment of
people, depends on that viability.
There are many venues to talk about "progressive" positions. I use
that adjective because most of the ideology presented here is in that
direction -- not many Jerry Falwells around (sounds of thanksgiving).
There are highly technical venues for talking about the innards of
DNS and, indeed, who governs the root.
There are very few venues to discuss the interaction of network with
the generic process of enabling citizenship. Let us try to keep this
list focused on the unique contributions it can make there, and let
us make it a place where, to be blunt, more technical people would
feel welcome. It's a fairly basic characteristic of technical people
to focus on finding solutions, rather than bewail how they are not
empowered, or how eeeevil the Conspiracies are.
:-) we know that the darkest motives ascribed to Bush and Cheney come
nowhere near the havoc that Dilbert-style pointy-haired bosses can
wreak.
>n a message dated 3/17/03 1:44:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>hcb@gettcomm.com writes:
>
>>If the list becomes a general place to vent non-network-related
>>political concerns, I will leave it. I can't speak to others.
>>
>>I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with
>>Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of
>>DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then
>>the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is
>>irrelevant and I'll look for another venue.
>>
>
>
>Hey! We really don't want this to happen. I really don't think you
>want Howard to leave. I don't.
>
>Look, we don't want to alienate anyone here, especially the
>technical people. We should be here trying to find solutions, not
>to vent. Please... Let us keep this a sacred place. I came here
>for professional reasons. I truly wanted to understand the
>political dynamics of the Internet as it develops. This is a truly
>wondrous age. For the sake of research (and Michael was about
>research) we really must keep the dialog professional which means
>professional.
>
>Let us avoid desultory political exposition or diatribe.
>
>What can we learn from these events that inspire passion and rage?
>What structure can we abstract from classes of similar events that
>can aid us in devising an internetwork that can enhance the quality
>of our lives and for citizens of the world?
>
>People come here worldwide expecting professional dialog. I believe
>I have used the word professional, it is now five times.
>
>We're all intelligent here. Let's take that rage and channel it
>into constructive endeavor. Whatdaya say?
>
>Ronda has been very professional. I must say that I am very pleased
>and honored that she has invited me here. She was correct in using
>appropriate language to suggest that those who are interested in
>discussing the war create another place to conduct that sort of
>discourse. There is nothing wrong with it. It just does not belong
>here.
>
>Larry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 23:57:22 +0100
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
HCB> In my opinion, it should be equally protected that that this person
HCB> be able to ELECTRONICALLY (in the context of Netizens) put out this
HCB> message, and for an odious racist to spew his filth. It would be
HCB> wrong, for example, to shut down a website associated with either.
...
HCB> But I still wouldn't shut down his website.
This is American view of free speech. In Europe it is community that
decides what's appropriate and what's out of limits. Of course, I am
not against displaying fascist webpages, but guidance is needed for
children and youth while working with net. And it should be parental
guidance preferably.
BTW Howard - Netiquette: You should really delete old replies below
your emails...
PS Luis - Netiquette: Don't use CAPS for it looks as shouting.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- three saints: looser & lamer & hacker -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:48:30 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: [netz] Re: Views and
Dan Duris wrote, identifying what I think is an excellent area of
Netizens discussion,
>HCB> In my opinion, it should be equally protected that that this person
>HCB> be able to ELECTRONICALLY (in the context of Netizens) put out this
>HCB> message, and for an odious racist to spew his filth. It would be
>HCB> wrong, for example, to shut down a website associated with either.
>...
>HCB> But I still wouldn't shut down his website.
>
>This is American view of free speech. In Europe it is community that
>decides what's appropriate and what's out of limits. Of course, I am
>not against displaying fascist webpages, but guidance is needed for
>children and youth while working with net. And it should be parental
>guidance preferably.
I'd say the position in the US is somewhere in the middle. There is a
US faction that wants prior restraint on content, perhaps on
"community standards." In a country as large and diverse as the US,
however, this becomes a problem -- prosecutors routinely would move
the trial venue for an obscenity case from, say, New York City --
where the material wouldn't raise a community eyebrow -- to a rural
religious community, which was opposed to almost anything.
I'm in the category of feeling there should be "warning labels", as
indeed there are in television, that can be enforced (including
electronically) by parents. As opposed to some colleagues, I would be
open to considerable "warning information" being available, much as I
agree there should be controls on admission of children to
pornography stores into which an adult should be free to go.
But the final authority is parental, with the caveat that the Net as
a whole cannot and should not be restricted to that which is fully
child-safe. I don't have conventional children (just three much-loved
cats). I know, however, that I might be thoroughly upset to have
human children reading some propaganda others might be delighted to
have them read, and vice versa.
(side note: Clifford, my really close cat friend of almost 18 years,
who died last summer, only paid attention to two things on
television: nature shows involving dogs/wolves/coyotes/etc. -- not
cats -- and Bill Clinton speeches. He'd sit and stare at the
television set through a 90 minute speech. It's beyond the mind of
man.
The next generation does like to watch the Animal Channel on
television. I don't know if it will convince some international
readers that the US has finally gone over the edge, but there is a
commercial proposal for new cable TV programming called the "Cat
Channel" -- not content about cats for people, but for cats to watch.
I have _very_ conflicted feelings about this. :-)
Does it make my cats Netizens because they emphatically walk on the
keyboard, sending some sort of message, while I am posting?
From a technical standpoint, there have been many idiotic measures
proposed for "prior protection." Simply speaking, they don't work
well if at all, and they also miss one of the most fundamental
principles of computer and network security: putting in every
protection needed doesn't relieve the administrator of creating an
audit trail and verifying that what eventually was accessed was
appropriate.
Now, this does not necessarily mean "checking up" on what adults do
by some outside authority. It may mean that a corporate or
governmental activity can monitor use (and potential security
violations) of their computing resources, or it may mean that parents
check their childrens' actual access.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:40:41 -0500
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...)
Dan : Thank you for the tip, from now on I'll use netiquette when I write. I
also want to thank those of you who defend freedom of speech, writing, etc.
I wrote to Jay and Ronda saying that I was "out my league" when I posted my
personal views on the war and democracy, when I actually should have written
how the war and democracy affect netizens, the net,.communications, etc. I
didn't mean to offend anyone or become controversial and I apologize for any
words I used out of anger. I am a simple person, a worker,not familiar with
many of the terms you use. I have learned to use a computer, but I'm still a
great distance away from becoming fully skilled in it. I have learned a good
deal from my friends the Haubens, whom I love and respect very much. One of
my goals is to become a good and effective netizen and I would appreciate
very much any help any of you can give me in becoming one.
Take care,
Luis de Quesada
Dan Duris wrote:
> HCB> In my opinion, it should be equally protected that that this person
> HCB> be able to ELECTRONICALLY (in the context of Netizens) put out this
> HCB> message, and for an odious racist to spew his filth. It would be
> HCB> wrong, for example, to shut down a website associated with either.
> ...
> HCB> But I still wouldn't shut down his website.
>
> This is American view of free speech. In Europe it is community that
> decides what's appropriate and what's out of limits. Of course, I am
> not against displaying fascist webpages, but guidance is needed for
> children and youth while working with net. And it should be parental
> guidance preferably.
>
> BTW Howard - Netiquette: You should really delete old replies below
> your emails...
>
> PS Luis - Netiquette: Don't use CAPS for it looks as shouting.
>
> dan
> --------------------------
> email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
> ICQ: 17932727
>
> *- three saints: looser & lamer & hacker -*
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:55:41 -0500
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE
Hello: During these difficult days I would like to suggest that all of
you with things to contribute to the list, do so, to keep the list
alive. I've been reading the list for a long time and your contributions
are enlightening and educational.
Thank you,
Luis de Quesada
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:00:02 EST
From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com
Subject: Re: [netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE
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In a message dated 3/19/03 10:40:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lgd1@columbia.edu writes:
> Hello: During these difficult days I would like to suggest that all of
> you with things to contribute to the list, do so, to keep the list
> alive. I've been reading the list for a long time and your contributions
> are enlightening and educational.
> Thank you,
> Luis de Quesada
>
Luis, I truly believe that it is not possible for the list to die. There are
way too many political issues to resolve regarding the development and
governance of the Internet. As you are well aware, Michael and Ronda have
introduced and articulated deftly many of these issues. Personally, as I am
looking to pursue in some way, some fair level of exploitation of the
Internet to reach consumers, I need to understand all sides of this
development and governance.
As long as I'm still invited, I'd like to stay.
By the way, I pray that everyone remains safe.
Larry
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/19/03 10:40:55 AM Eastern Standar=
d Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hello: During these difficult d=
ays I would like to suggest that all of<BR>
you with things to contribute to the list, do so, to keep the list<BR>
alive. I've been reading the list for a long time and your contributions<BR>
are enlightening and educational.<BR>
Thank you,<BR>
Luis de Quesada<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Luis, I truly believe that it is not possible for the list to die. The=
re are way too many political issues to resolve regarding the development an=
d governance of the Internet. As you are well aware, Michael and Ronda=
have introduced and articulated deftly many of these issues. Personal=
ly, as I am looking to pursue in some way, some fair level of exploitation o=
f the Internet to reach consumers, I need to understand all sides of this de=
velopment and governance. <BR>
<BR>
As long as I'm still invited, I'd like to stay. <BR>
<BR>
By the way, I pray that everyone remains safe.<BR>
<BR>
Larry</FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:21:38 -0500 (EST)
From: jrh@ais.org (Jay Hauben)
Subject: [netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs
Hi,
I thought this article about the Internet in Iraq from Radio Netherlands
would interest readers of this list. My heart goes out to all the Iraqi
people and to those military personnel whose lives will be shattered
because the military of the US and its allies have been thrown against
Iraq. Those who want democracy anywhere might help that process by helping
spread the Internet to those places. Bombs and invasions from my point of
view can not spread democracy.
Take care.
Jay
- -------------
Radio Netherlands 14 March 2003
This is the weekly newsletter from Media Network at Radio
Netherlands.
http://www.rnw.nl/realradio/features/html/iraq-internet.html
The Iraqi Internet
by Andy Sennitt
Until 1999, ordinary Iraqis did not have
access to the Internet. That was not entirely
the fault of the Iraqi government.
UN-imposed trade sanctions made it
impossible to import the necessary technical
equipment. Now the government allows
individuals to access the Net, albeit only via its own
service provider (the State Company for Internet
Services) which trades as uruklink.net. Only in
quasi-autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan is the Web largely
free of official censorship.
The Iraqi government sees the Internet as a form of
getting information from abroad, and as a source of
income through charging relatively high fees to use the
Internet. Even so it's cheaper to send an e-mail than
make a phone call in Iraq.
Internet cafes
The first state-run Internet cafe opened in July 2000, and
there were around 60 by the start of 2003. Those who can
afford it are allowed to have Internet connections at
home. The cost is 50,000 Iraqi dinars (about US$25) for
three months, with an additional charge for each e-mail
message. A locally built computer costs around US$600.
That's beyond the means of most ordinary Iraqis, who
prefer to use the Internet cafes where typically they can
surf the net for 500 Dinars (about 25 US cents) per
session.
But at least some Iraqis now have direct access to
information from outside the country, though there's no
doubt that the authorities closely monitor their online
activity. There's a degree of official censorship too. Iraqis
cannot access Web sites whose contents are considered
"contradictory to Islamic law." Any Iraqi clicking on a link
to a site that contains sexual or pornographic material is
receives an "Access Denied" message. Also banned are
the sites of Iraqi opposition groups, and some US
government sites. Iraqis are not allowed to open E-mail
accounts with commercial providers outside Iraq, such as
Hotmail and Yahoo! Unexplained disruptions to service
still occur, probably more for political than technical
reasons.
Iraqi Web sites
T
here are relatively few Web sites produced inside Iraq
for the outside world, all of them by the Iraqi government
and institutions. They are linked from the Home Page of
Uruklink. Ironically, one of the sites is for the Iraq
Tourism Board. Note from the screen shot below that they
have pages in 'Dutche' (sic) which in fact turns out to be
German.
The Web site of the Iraqi News Agency has a substantial
section in English, though when we checked the latest
headlines were three days old, suggesting that stories
have to go through a rigorous checking procedure before
they're published.
The Iraq Satellite Channel affair
The Iraqi Internet infrastructure has been set up
with scant attention to efficiency and security. This is
amply demonstrated by what happened to the Web site
of the Iraq Satellite Channel, Iraq's international TV
service. On 18 February 2003, a routine check by
Media Network showed that the site appeared to
have been hacked. During 2002, we had been able to
watch the channel in streaming video at www.iraqtv.ws.
But we were surprised to find that the content had been
replaced by a Christian fundamentalist message (see
screenshot on right).
Media Network's Lou Josephs and Sheila Lennon of the
Providence Journal managed to track down the person
responsible, American James Poole. It turns out that he
had discovered the domain registration had expired, and a
quick piece of thinking allowed him to reregister it.
Quick Thinking
"I don't know if they let it lapse or just never got it up off
the ground," said Poole. "I was scanning their sites
looking for some weakness or vulnerability, and
discovered that they had a link to their satellite service
that was not registered at that point, so I registered the
link and put up my own site. I registered the site on
Sunday, Feb 16 and the fact that my link is still imbedded
on the site tells me that someone over there is helping
me, either out of fear or agreement. I have received one
threat by E-mail but many positive messages of
encouragement, even one in French and one short letter
of appreciation from an Arabic sounding name."
Poole was able to take advantage of the fact
that the State Company for Internet Services
(SCIS), uses just two foreign companies to
handle nearly all its Internet access. One is
American (Atlanta International Teleport of
Douglasville, Ga.), and the other is British
(SMS Internet of Rugby, Warwickshire). This
arrangement came about when SCIS approached ARABSAT
to obtain Internet access. ARABSAT contracts its Internet
service from various commercial companies, which happen
to include AIT and SMS. In theory, the US and Britain
could shut down Iraq's internet access if they wanted to,
simply by ordering AIT and SMS to switch off the
connection.
Opposition Sites
Most Iraqi-related sites operating in the west are either
independent or run by opposition groups supporting the
goal of regime change in Iraq. Some of them have
suffered denial of service attacks and other
inconveniences. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
has not ruled out the possibility that some of the denial
of service attacks are the work of pro-Baghdad hackers.
But this seems unlikely as the general level of Internet
expertise in Iraq remains low. A more likely scenario is
that US citizens, unable to grasp the complexities of Iraqi
politics, were behind most of the attacks. It is, of course,
politically expedient for the Bush administration to claim
that cyber attacks by Iraq, Al Qaeda and other
'undesirable' elements, are a threat to US security. At the
same time, the FBI has warned US hackers to desist from
"patriotic hacking", as it is a crime and could even
backfire.
Cyberwar
In January, the US Defense Department began
sending thousands of e-mail messages to
Leaders of the Iraqi military, warning them that
that they would sustain heavy losses unless
they defied Saddam Hussein. This is very much
the same message as the psyop radio broadcasts. It's
believed that the 193rd Special Operations Wing of the
Pennsylvania Air National Guard, which operates
Information Radio, and the CIA were involved in the
e-mail campaign. They used the services of Iraqi
defectors to contact former colleagues and urge them to
cooperate with US forces. These are extracts from some of
the messages:
"If you provide information on weapons of mass
destruction or you take steps to hamper their use,
we will do what is necessary to protect you and
protect your families. Failing to do that will lead to
grave personal consequences."
"If you take part in the use of these ugly weapons,
you'll be regarded as war criminals. If you can make
these weapons ineffective, then do it. If you can
identify the position of weapons of mass destruction
by light signals, then do it. If all this is not possible,
then at least refuse to take part in any activity or
follow orders to use weapons of mass destruction."
"Iraqi chemical, biological and nuclear weapons
violate Iraq's commitment to agreements and United
Nations resolutions. Iraq has been isolated because
of this behaviour. The United States and its allies
want the Iraqi people to be liberated from Saddam's
injustice and for Iraq to become a respected member
of the international community. Iraq's future depends
on you."
It's not clear if any of the messages reached their
intended recipients, as all Internet traffic reaching Iraq is
monitored and is filtered through uruklink.net.
NB: Radio Netherlands is not responsible for the content of external Web
sites.© 2003 Send us an e-mail
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #436
******************************
