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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 435
Netizens-Digest Monday, March 17 2003 Volume 01 : Number 435
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:22:33 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
> Hello: I consider what happened at that mall and democracy is very, very
>much on topic.
I repeat: tell me the relevance to the net, or rephrase this post so
that it considers looks at the Internet as a place of free speech --
and, not unreasonably, addressing whether it's for all views.
In my opinion, it should be equally protected that that this person
be able to ELECTRONICALLY (in the context of Netizens) put out this
message, and for an odious racist to spew his filth. It would be
wrong, for example, to shut down a website associated with either.
To pose an extreme analogy, I could pull the trigger on Osama bin
Laden -- hell, let's not give me the separation of a gun. Kill in
body contact while staring in his eyes.
But I still wouldn't shut down his website.
>While I recognize that, unfortunately, there may be laws
>allowing mall owners to treat people on their property, virtually as they
>damn well please, one must recognize that people of many political points of
>view will enter stores, malls, etc. and respect those opinions, even if
>they're displayed on a t-shirt in bold letters.One must also recognize that
>there are good laws and bad laws. The laws or laws that allowed that arrest
>are clearly bad and should be changed or discarded, because they lead to
>nowhere but dictatorship. These are the kind of laws people like Hitler took
>advantage of, to get away with murder.
Are you familiar with the USENET concept of "calling a Godwin?" If
not, I commend you to do so. I, sir, invoke Godwin on you.
>Otherwise mall owners should post a
>visible warning sign at the entrance(s) of their businesses, such as "people
>wearing t-shirts and other regalia displaying political views, especially
>those contrary to ours, not allowed".
As a matter of fact, many malls do have warning signs about
displaying position information not approved by the mall.
>It would also be helpful if those
>owners would instruct blank t-shirt merchants who do printing jobs inside
>those malls, not to print anything they consider "inflammatory or contrary to
>their views". The t-shirts and printing jobs on them were done at the mall.
I will agree this was the most ridiculous part of the incident.
>I
>am convinced that what initially happened at that mall, current applicable
>laws notwithstanding was the kind of stuff which should never happen in a
>democracy.
>Luis D.
>
>Mark Lindeman wrote:
>
>> Luis De Quesada wrote in part:
>>
>> >On democracy I have serious concerns about the latest developments in
>> >our nation, namely the incident at a mall near Albany, NY where a lawyer
>> >was arrested for wearing a "give peace a chance" t-shirt. The charges
>> >were dropped but the fact that it did happen, the initial overreaction
>> >and blatant constitutional rights infringement on the part of the mall's
>> >security guards and acquiescing local police is a matter to be taken
>> >seriously and with great concern by those who truly believe in democracy
>> >
>> For better or for worse, what happened at the Crossgates Mall wasn't a
>> _blatant_ constitutional violation. (There's a decent legal case
>> against what the mall did, but it isn't open-and-shut.) Malls are
>> private space that many people consider quasi-public; the owners do have
>> lots of discretion over how they treat people on their property.
>>
>> I almost didn't post this, because a prolonged discussion of the
>> constitutional status of malls seems off-topic. But the issue of
>> private vs. public space probably is very pertinent to netizen themes.
>>
>> Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:27:19 -0500
From: Mark Lindeman <lindeman@bard.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Luis De Quesada wrote:
> Hello: I consider what happened at that mall and democracy is very, very
>much on topic. [big snip]
>
Sorry, I should have been more specific. Certainly on topic with
respect to the general theme of democracy. And no one appointed me to
police some border of topicality. But I agree with Howard that I'd like
this list to focus on the role of what he called network-enabled
communication -- a broad theme, yet focused enough that a netizens list
can have some advantage.
Of course we all can post whatever opinions we feel like. But if that's
the extent of our common purpose, then there isn't much point to it.
I have very little idea what sort of input Ronda intended to invite, and
certainly no desire to dispute with you over the correct interpretation.
I'm hoping to take a longer view of what the list hopes to be discussing
weeks and months from now.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:42:21 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
>Hello: When Ronda invited all netizens to post their views on the war and
>demoracy, I took it as an invitation to everyone to do just that and post
>their views, for or against the war. I posted my own and if you post yours I
>will respect it, because I believe that's what democracy is all about.
If the list becomes a general place to vent non-network-related
political concerns, I will leave it. I can't speak to others.
I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with
Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of
DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then
the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is
irrelevant and I'll look for another venue.
I am deeply involved in discussing war-related issues on other
mailing lists and newsgroups. That is their focus. To make a list
include everything is to make it focused on nothing. That is my
advice to Ronda.
>I did
>not interpret Ronda's wishes as "short of an invitation". Furthermore I will
>not fall short of expressing my views on the board since we were all invited
>to do so by Ronda.
>Luis de Quesada
>
>"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
>
>> >Hello: Since all netizens have been invited to post their views on
>> >democracy and the very possible and looming war against Iraq I post the
>> >following:
>>
>> Well, it is true that Ronda expressed this as something desirable,
>> but I found it something short of an invitation.
>>
>> If you define "all netizens" as the membership of the list, you may
>> have some argument -- but if you generalize beyond that, you may very
>> well alienate potential allies. To be perfectly blunt, I find your
>> postings less and less credible because they tend to deal exclusively
>> or almost exclusively with ideology, in a way that is so far removed
>> from improing net communications as to be irrelevant. I regret it if
>> that is perceived as a personal attack, and I'm trying to be
>> objective. But, I feel I must make my point clear.
>>
>> Luis, if you would want to create a list dealing with war issues, I'd
>> probably subscribe. But do _not_ imply I am endorsing a "Netizens on
>> War and Democracy" focus -- I reject that and will not be lumped into
>> that category. "Netizens on Network-Enabled Political Communications"
>> -- sure. War is only one aspect of politics and governance.
>>
>> I do not think, however, this is the place for it. This list can
>> fill a niche in dealing with Netizen/internet process well beyond the
>> issue of a specific war. There area other places for that discussion.
>>
>> Should this list primarily get into politicomilitary issues that have
>> no obvious connection to improving network-enabled communication ---
>> which is a harder topic than saying "we sent out mail on XXX issue,"
>> I certainly will resign from the list and go somewhere else where I
>> actually might accomplish something long-lasting.
>>
>> >I favor diplomacy not war. I don't think the U.S. and Britain diplomatic
>> >efforts have been totally exhausted with Iraq and I think that through
>> >diplomacy an effective Iraqi discarding of all its WMD's can be
>> >achieved. Effective plans such as Canada's have been written off as
>> >"unworkable" and "more of the same" without even giving them serious
>> >study or attempt to implement. Again my opposition to a military or
>> >violent solution of the crisis against Iraq must never be interpreted as
>> >an endorsement of Sadam Hussein and his regime.\
>>
>> Look at your above paragraph. I can't see one word regarding how
>> network-enabled communication could facilitate the process.
>>
>> >On democracy I have serious concerns about the latest developments in
>> >our nation, namely the incident at a mall near Albany, NY where a lawyer
>> >was arrested for wearing a "give peace a chance" t-shirt. The charges
>> >were dropped but the fact that it did happen, the initial overreaction
>> >and blatant constitutional rights infringement on the part of the mall's
> > >security guards and acquiescing local police is a matter to be taken
>> >seriously and with great concern by those who truly believe in democracy
>>
>> To try to give you some perspective, I am absolutely appalled by the
>> behavior of the guards and police in this incident. That being said,
>> I see it in no way relevant to an effectively focused Netizen list.
>>
>> >
>> >Luis de Quesada
>> >netizen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:21:15 -0500
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Hello: What's the relevance to the net? Probably none but I think freedom of
expression should be relevant to the net and to all means of communications.
Again I accepted an encouragement or invitation from Ronda to all netizens to
post their views on the war and democracy, whether its relevant or irrelevant to
the net. I've already explained myself on it and this is absolutely the last time
I will do it because I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else. I am a
free man. I am not familiar with the term "invoking a Godwin" or any other
"gobbledygook" term you might care to use. As far as looking for another venue, I
cannot speak for the Haubens, so you'll have to take that issue with them.
Lou D.
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
> >Hello: When Ronda invited all netizens to post their views on the war and
> >demoracy, I took it as an invitation to everyone to do just that and post
> >their views, for or against the war. I posted my own and if you post yours I
> >will respect it, because I believe that's what democracy is all about.
>
> If the list becomes a general place to vent non-network-related
> political concerns, I will leave it. I can't speak to others.
>
> I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with
> Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of
> DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then
> the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is
> irrelevant and I'll look for another venue.
>
> I am deeply involved in discussing war-related issues on other
> mailing lists and newsgroups. That is their focus. To make a list
> include everything is to make it focused on nothing. That is my
> advice to Ronda.
>
> >I did
> >not interpret Ronda's wishes as "short of an invitation". Furthermore I will
> >not fall short of expressing my views on the board since we were all invited
> >to do so by Ronda.
> >Luis de Quesada
> >
> >"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
> >
> >> >Hello: Since all netizens have been invited to post their views on
> >> >democracy and the very possible and looming war against Iraq I post the
> >> >following:
> >>
> >> Well, it is true that Ronda expressed this as something desirable,
> >> but I found it something short of an invitation.
> >>
> >> If you define "all netizens" as the membership of the list, you may
> >> have some argument -- but if you generalize beyond that, you may very
> >> well alienate potential allies. To be perfectly blunt, I find your
> >> postings less and less credible because they tend to deal exclusively
> >> or almost exclusively with ideology, in a way that is so far removed
> >> from improing net communications as to be irrelevant. I regret it if
> >> that is perceived as a personal attack, and I'm trying to be
> >> objective. But, I feel I must make my point clear.
> >>
> >> Luis, if you would want to create a list dealing with war issues, I'd
> >> probably subscribe. But do _not_ imply I am endorsing a "Netizens on
> >> War and Democracy" focus -- I reject that and will not be lumped into
> >> that category. "Netizens on Network-Enabled Political Communications"
> >> -- sure. War is only one aspect of politics and governance.
> >>
> >> I do not think, however, this is the place for it. This list can
> >> fill a niche in dealing with Netizen/internet process well beyond the
> >> issue of a specific war. There area other places for that discussion.
> >>
> >> Should this list primarily get into politicomilitary issues that have
> >> no obvious connection to improving network-enabled communication ---
> >> which is a harder topic than saying "we sent out mail on XXX issue,"
> >> I certainly will resign from the list and go somewhere else where I
> >> actually might accomplish something long-lasting.
> >>
> >> >I favor diplomacy not war. I don't think the U.S. and Britain diplomatic
> >> >efforts have been totally exhausted with Iraq and I think that through
> >> >diplomacy an effective Iraqi discarding of all its WMD's can be
> >> >achieved. Effective plans such as Canada's have been written off as
> >> >"unworkable" and "more of the same" without even giving them serious
> >> >study or attempt to implement. Again my opposition to a military or
> >> >violent solution of the crisis against Iraq must never be interpreted as
> >> >an endorsement of Sadam Hussein and his regime.\
> >>
> >> Look at your above paragraph. I can't see one word regarding how
> >> network-enabled communication could facilitate the process.
> >>
> >> >On democracy I have serious concerns about the latest developments in
> >> >our nation, namely the incident at a mall near Albany, NY where a lawyer
> >> >was arrested for wearing a "give peace a chance" t-shirt. The charges
> >> >were dropped but the fact that it did happen, the initial overreaction
> >> >and blatant constitutional rights infringement on the part of the mall's
> > > >security guards and acquiescing local police is a matter to be taken
> >> >seriously and with great concern by those who truly believe in democracy
> >>
> >> To try to give you some perspective, I am absolutely appalled by the
> >> behavior of the guards and police in this incident. That being said,
> >> I see it in no way relevant to an effectively focused Netizen list.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Luis de Quesada
> >> >netizen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:39:55 -0500
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
Hello Mark:
Thank you for your intelligent clarification. I think at this point Ronda
should clarify exactly what she meant by her invitation to all netizens to
state how they view the possible war in Iraq and democracy to avoid
misunderstandings.
Take care,
Lou
Mark Lindeman wrote:
> Luis De Quesada wrote:
>
> > Hello: I consider what happened at that mall and democracy is very, very
> >much on topic. [big snip]
> >
> Sorry, I should have been more specific. Certainly on topic with
> respect to the general theme of democracy. And no one appointed me to
> police some border of topicality. But I agree with Howard that I'd like
> this list to focus on the role of what he called network-enabled
> communication -- a broad theme, yet focused enough that a netizens list
> can have some advantage.
>
> Of course we all can post whatever opinions we feel like. But if that's
> the extent of our common purpose, then there isn't much point to it.
>
> I have very little idea what sort of input Ronda intended to invite, and
> certainly no desire to dispute with you over the correct interpretation.
> I'm hoping to take a longer view of what the list hopes to be discussing
> weeks and months from now.
>
> Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:02:51 -0500
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
>Hello: What's the relevance to the net? Probably none but I think freedom of
>expression should be relevant to the net and to all means of communications.
>Again I accepted an encouragement or invitation from Ronda to all netizens to
>post their views on the war and democracy, whether its relevant or
>irrelevant to
>the net. I've already explained myself on it and this is absolutely
>the last time
>I will do it because I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone
>else. I am a
>free man. I am not familiar with the term "invoking a Godwin" or any other
>"gobbledygook" term you might care to use.
Gobbledygook. Indeed. I now understand better why you aren't better
prepared to discuss Internet issues, since you are obviously
unfamiliar with the history, culture, and customs of the medium.
Consider this, Sir, my last communication with you.
>As far as looking for another venue, I
>cannot speak for the Haubens, so you'll have to take that issue with them.
>Lou D.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:00:05 -0500
From: Luis De Quesada <lgd1@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
That's fine with me, sir.
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
> >Hello: What's the relevance to the net? Probably none but I think freedom of
> >expression should be relevant to the net and to all means of communications.
> >Again I accepted an encouragement or invitation from Ronda to all netizens to
> >post their views on the war and democracy, whether its relevant or
> >irrelevant to
> >the net. I've already explained myself on it and this is absolutely
> >the last time
> >I will do it because I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone
> >else. I am a
> >free man. I am not familiar with the term "invoking a Godwin" or any other
> >"gobbledygook" term you might care to use.
>
> Gobbledygook. Indeed. I now understand better why you aren't better
> prepared to discuss Internet issues, since you are obviously
> unfamiliar with the history, culture, and customs of the medium.
>
> Consider this, Sir, my last communication with you.
>
> >As far as looking for another venue, I
> >cannot speak for the Haubens, so you'll have to take that issue with them.
> >Lou D.
> >
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:43:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY
I just have had a chance to glance at some of the latest posts.
When I wrote about the view of netizens toward war, I wasn't
asking for a specific discussion of the Iraq war, but rather
to try to understand if there are principles which relate to
netizens and war.
I felt that since there is disagreement on this list about views
on the war on Iraq, that we could look and try to understand
what we did agree on and what understanding we who differed had
about netizens so we could try to clarify what we had in common.
Somehow it seems that perhaps the opposite has been occurring,
but since I haven't had time to read through the different posts
yet, I don't know for sure.
In any case, I suggested a general discussion, not a specific one
and I thought our differences on the war question would help
us to sort out what we agreed about with regard to netizens.
I am sorry I haven't been available to discuss this further.
I will read over what has gone on later this evening.
Hopefully, we can turn any disagreements into a constructive,
not destructive process.
with best wishes
Ronda
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #435
******************************
