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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 392
Netizens-Digest Monday, June 18 2001 Volume 01 : Number 392
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] Basic Net Services
Re[2]: [netz] Basic Net Services
[netz] May 23 talk on Usenet, Usenet archives and technical collaboration
[netz] Usenet as a model for the future of the Net
[netz] A segregation of information feared
[netz] Net blackout marks Web's Achilles heel - Tech News - CNET.com
[netz] Amateur Computerist Vol 10 No 2 is available
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:57:42 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@clark.net>
Subject: Re: [netz] Basic Net Services
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <<mailto:hcb@clark.net>hcb@clark.net>
>To: <<mailto:netizens@columbia.edu>netizens@columbia.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:13 PM
>Subject: [netz] Basic Net Services
>
>
> > I've become concerned that recent discussions have focused
> > away from the important policy issues, and wandered variously into
>> not-quite-correct discussions of current technologies, reviews of
>> historical evolution, and some diatribes about corporate and other
>> government malfeasance (or at least nonfeasance).
> >
>It seems quite important to me, even though I'm not an expert.
My concern was that we were spending a lot of time on arguing about
the way IP routing works or doesn't work, and making statements about
"equality of packets" that simply doesn't make good engineering sense.
> >
>> Now, if there it is a true policy that everything is equal on the
>> net, in my opinion, everything is doomed.
> >
>I don't think so. Everything should be free, and dependant on
>funding... And funding should depend on understanding. Yes
>I know, that might be too much to expect ;).
>
> > But it is not unreasonable, I believe, to identify a set of basic
> > -- "lifeline" -- services that MUST be supported, and even perhaps
> > with some availability guarantees by all participating providers.
> > Any service guarantees, of course, would have to be associated
> > with workload expectations. It is not reasonable to assume 5
> > minute email delivery given 10 text messages per person per day,
> >
>Now you want me to hang myself ;). I need at least 100 messages
>a day, even though I might survive with 50 of them (hoping for better
>days). What do you expect from me? To go to Pleistocene, and
>carve my messages in stone and throw them into the recipient
>heads? Like, you've got a message?\
Oh, I get several hundred. I was thinking less of the total number of
emails, than the delivery time. If individual emails are delayed for
5 or 10 minutes, it isn't very noticeable. If the response desired
is faster than that, you should probably not be using mail, but
something like IRC. In comparison, with recent server problems
inside my company, mail delivery has slowed to 4 hours or more, which
is really painful.
Of course, there is an implicit assumption that one is always
connected to receive mail, or that dialing into a server is of
minimal cost. Perhaps a reasonable assumption in North America, but
not elsewhere. I have many UK friends who collect their personal
email once or twice a day, to save telephone costs.
> >
> > and then have to cope with thousands of spammed messages
> > carrying large graphic files.
> >
>That depends on how graphic they really are ;).
Ummmm...yup.
> >
>> Basic User Services
>> -------------------
>>
>> So what might be the basic services? Note that I make no
>> profit/nonprofit distinctions as to who operates the service, and am
>> avoiding funding issues. Running through this, incidentally, is the
>> set of expectations of the end user. It is easier to use a web
>> interface to mail than a POP server and dedicated mail client like
>> Eudora or Pine, even though the web interface needs more support.
>>
>Please don't take my POP3 from me ;).
Nor from me. I mutter at a fair number of my friends who like to use
things like hotmail, and then complain that they can't do things that
I do with POP3 and Eudora, or with a non-free mail service.
Seriously, you touch on an important point. One of the
characteristics of the commercialization of the net has been dumbing
down many of the user interfaces. Does a "first class netizen" have
to be able to configure basic tools? Or is that an elitist view.
> >
> > 1. Email.
>>
>> I would suggest that email is one such basic service, with a rough
>> delivery goal of 20-30 minutes for a text message of moderate size.
>> This service needs high availability, not at the level of a life
>> support system.
>>
>No, no , no. It is life support related. Howard, you don't want to hurt
>an innocent human being like me. Right?
:-) noted. But Ronda makes the point -- with which I disagree --
that all packets should receive equal treatment. I want to give
better and enforceable priority to the telepresence surgery.
> >
> > 2. Bulletin board service
>>
>> Not a very precise term, but essentially USENET. There may need to
>> be restrictions based on sheer volumes of transmitting image files,
>> and also on possible illegalities involving warez.
>>
>Come on Howard, I love image files ;).
I like them too. But again there's a real cost -- binaries take up
lots of disk space on servers. This isn't precisely a net
(transmission) cost, but it's a cost of using the net services. I
have very real concerns with my provider shortening the retention
time on technical and policy groups so they can keep up with a few
days of erotic binaries. Don't get me wrong -- I like certain sorts
of erotic binaries, but I'd rather pay for access to them. I can live
with having adults only bookstores, but I don't want the contents of
those bookstores limited to what's appropriate for children.
>
>
> >
>> 7. Electronic commerce
>>
>> Since this is quite convenient for many consumers, and potentially
>> profitable for businesses, it has a value. I see support for it as
>> funded from transaction fees or taxes.
>>
>I couldn't care less. They'll fund it, don't doubt it.
> >
>> 8. General information browsing
>>
>> "The Web," and I'm not sure how to characterize it.
>>
>I don't care, just don't take that information source from me.
OK...but somebody pays.
> >
>> Basic Infrastructure Services
>> -----------------------------
>>
>> The network(s) that provide these services need to have a certain
>> level of expectation of reliability. If that means they all need to
>> move to corporate level security to protect against very real world
>> malicious hacking and outright criminal behavior, that will have to
>> be done insofar as it protects networks rather than servers.
> >
>You may be right, but you haven't mention graphic services for a
>long time now.
>>
>> At some point in planning for reliability, network operators have to
>> plan for natural disasters.
> >
>Isn't the Internet the ultimate post nuclear war communication
>system? It should ensure (1) the command line services, and (2)
>graphic services for the rest of us ;), while they play their war
>games.
Actually, there's a lot of urban legend there. The idea of packet
switching does improve reliability -- we had hard proof in the
survivability of the Iraqi air defense system -- but lots of the
nuclear warfighting systems are radio based, throughout the
electromagnetic spectrum. They have to be--it's not even a question
of damage, but that the bombers and submarines are moving.
>
> >
> > where other cities, such as San Jose, routinely put in
>> dark fiber whenever they do road or sewer construction,
>> and then lease it to the providers.
> >
>That's smart. Unfortunately the rest of the world is not San Jose.
>
>Personally, I like this list serious as it is. I just couldn't resist
>this. In my opinion, IP numbers should be arranged in levels,
>allowing individual servers to point wherever.
Not sure quite what you mean by levels, but real-world, scalable IP
routing systems are hierarchical. IP addresses should NOT be
permanent host identifiers; they are there for the benefit of the
routing system. DNS and future directories are the proper tools for
finding servers, especially when you are dealing with a virtual
server name (e.g., amazon.com isn't one physical machine, but several
clusters in several locations)
>If you allow
>linking names with numbers, you can have duplicate names,
>leaving it to surfers to go wherever they want to... they'd have
>name 1, name 2 &c (with descriptions)...
>
>Julian Ams .)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:59:29 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dan@netcommodities.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [netz] Basic Net Services
HCB> 5 or 10 minutes, it isn't very noticeable. If the response desired
HCB> is faster than that, you should probably not be using mail, but
HCB> something like IRC. In comparison, with recent server problems
sometimes it is funny to use email for (almost) real-time
communication... and sometimes there isn't irc provided, nor icq...
HCB> not elsewhere. I have many UK friends who collect their personal
HCB> email once or twice a day, to save telephone costs.
hm. i also connect to internet only 2 or 3 times a day to save
money... i wait for cable-modem connection or other cheap dsl
connections. but this won't be in slovakia until january 1 2003. this
is the date when monopoly of slovak telecommunications ends.
HCB> of erotic binaries, but I'd rather pay for access to them. I can live
HCB> with having adults only bookstores, but I don't want the contents of
HCB> those bookstores limited to what's appropriate for children.
this is all about money. i use much of software that is cracked,
because i don't have money to pay like 7000 slovak crowns for
microsoft windows 2000, because the average income is around 10000
crowns.... so i don't buy it, i just use it. and please don't tell me
about linux, i also use that one, but you know, i can use it, my
father/mother/brother (choose anyone...) can't...
dan
- -----------------------------
email: dan@netcommodities.com
ICQ: 17932727
*- the bat! is my servant, is yours? http://www.ritlabs.com/the_bat/ -*
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:17:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: ronda@panix.com
Subject: [netz] May 23 talk on Usenet, Usenet archives and technical collaboration
I thought those on the Netizens mailing list would find this subject of
interest. Once I have a written version of the talk I will make it
available as well. Ronda
Usenet and the Usenet Archives
The Challenges of Building a Collaborative Technical Community
by Ronda Hauben
ronda@panix.com
In 1981, Mark Horton, one of the early developers of Usenet, wrote that
"USENET exists for and by the users, and should respond to the needs of
those users."
Almost twenty years later, in the Fall of 2000, almost 4000 people signed
a petition directed to Deja.com asking them to either maintain the
archives online that they had compiled of Usenet posts, or to transfer it
to someone who would continue to keep it online and to provide it with
an appropriate home.
These two events, separated by almost twenty years, help to highlight
an important achievement and yet a significant challenge for our times.
Usenet was created as a users's network. What are the implications of this
design principle on the continuing development and scaling process of
Usenet?
How do the contributions and collaborative efforts by the users
affect Usenet's continued development? The technical collaboration
and support that Usenet provides for people around the world is
valued, as reflected by the petition to Deja.com. Yet there are
problems that develop as Usenet develops, such as the problem of
archiving Usenet and maintaining that archive and access to it in
a way that recognizes the concerns of the online community and
provides a means to respond to these concerns.
As Usenet scales new problems develop. But so too does the body
of experience of how to understand and approach these problems.
Usenet is not only about open source and user developed content.
It is also an example of user involvement in the administration and
developing architecture of the network itself. As such, Usenet
is a working model of grassroots development. What are the
implications of this model toward the broader challenge of
the continuing development of a collaborative technical
community? Although focusing on Usenet and its development,
this talk will also explore the implications of this model
toward the general problem of the need for the continued development
of a collaborative technical community.
Stanford University
4:15PM, Wednesday, May 23, 2001
NEC Auditorium, Gates Computer Science Building B03
Url: http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:53:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: jrh@ais.org (Jay Hauben)
Subject: [netz] Usenet as a model for the future of the Net
Hi,
I think the readers of the Netizens list will find the talk by Ronda
Hauben at Stanford University of interest. The speech is online and can be
seen using a stream video viewer.
Jay
- ----------
How the Net Will Grow?
A framework in which to take up that question was presented in a talk at
Stanford University in Palo Alto, California on May 23, 2001. Using the
history of Usenet and the current questions raised by the purchase by
Google, Inc. of the Deja.com 1995-2000 archives of Usenet the talk
emphasized the strength of Usenet as a model for the future of the Net.
A streaming video of that talk is on line at
http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/
It can be seen using a video viewer by clicking the View Video button for
May 23.
The title of the talk which is by Ronda Hauben is:
Usenet and the Usenet Archives
The Challenges of Building a Collaborative Technical Community
Abstract:
In 1981, Mark Horton, one of the early developers of Usenet, wrote that
"USENET exists for and by the users, and should respond to the needs of
those users."
Almost twenty years later, in the Fall of 2000, almost 4000 people signed
a petition directed to Deja.com asking them to either maintain the
archives online that they had compiled of Usenet posts, or to transfer it
to someone who would continue to keep it online and to provide it with an
appropriate home.
These two events, separated by almost twenty years, help to highlight an
important achievement and yet a significant challenge for our times.
Usenet was created as a users's network. What are the implications of this
design principle on the continuing development and scaling process of
Usenet?
How do the contributions and collaborative efforts by the users affect
Usenet's continued development? The technical collaboration and support
that Usenet provides for people around the world is valued, as reflected
by the petition to Deja.com. Yet there are problems that develop as
Usenet develops, such as the problem of archiving Usenet and maintaining
that archive and access to it in a way that recognizes the concerns of the
online community and provides a means to respond to these concerns.
As Usenet scales new problems develop. But so too does the body of
experience of how to understand and approach these problems.
Usenet is not only about open source and user developed content. It is
also an example of user involvement in the administration and developing
architecture of the network itself. As such, Usenet is a working model of
grassroots development. What are the
implications of this model toward the broader challenge of the continuing
development of a collaborative technical community? Although focusing on
Usenet and its development, this talk will also explore the implications
of this model toward the general problem of the need for the continued
development of a collaborative technical community.
Url: http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Greg Skinner <gds@best.com>
Subject: [netz] A segregation of information feared
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-201-6016950-1.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Greg Skinner <gds@best.com>
Subject: [netz] Net blackout marks Web's Achilles heel - Tech News - CNET.com
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-6206030.html?tag=tp_pr
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:32:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: jrh@ais.org (Jay Hauben)
Subject: [netz] Amateur Computerist Vol 10 No 2 is available
Announcing
Amateur Computerist Volume 10 No 2
http://www.ais.org/~jrh/acn/text/ACN10-2.txt
Table of Contents
[1] Editorial
[2] Is the Internet a Laboratory for Democracy?
[3] Ford Model E Program
[4] Battle over Computer Classes at Ford 1984-1987
[5] State of the Net in Hungary
[6] A Loss for Netizens: Kerry Miller
[7] Moment of Silence for Michael Muuss
[8] Culture Clash: Google Purchase of Usenet Archives
[9] John Locke and the Internet
[10] MsgGroup Mailing List
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
This issue of the Amateur Computerist returns to a general rather than
thematic format. There are a number of articles, however, that
explore whether the Internet will be for everybody or whether it will
be limited to an exclusive strata of society. Also the question
what role the Internet will play in society is a question that needs
public discussion and examination. Such topics are being ignored by
the media, at least in the U.S., at the current time. Meanwhile there
are plans in the U.S. to change some of the nature of the Internet and
the means of its access. While the Internet was originally created to
make possible resource sharing of human and computer resources, there
are commercial desires to make the Internet into a network that will
prioritize packets and introduce classes of service so that the
packets of those who pay more will be treated in a privileged way and
those who cannot pay more will have their packets treated as second
class. The article in this issue about the cancellation of
programming classes at the Ford Motor Company that led to the creation
of the Amateur Computerist shows that a change in policy can be
carried out in a way that is hidden from the public and contrary to
their best interests. The effort of the staff of the Amateur
Computerist to continue to support the development of computers and
computer education, despite losing the classes has been an important
achievement. Almost 15 years after the computer programming classes
were ended at the Ford Rouge Plant, the Ford Model E program has been
introduced and is making it possible for many Ford employees to have
computers and a form of Internet access. What will be the long term
effect of this program will be interesting to see.
The talk "Is the Internet a Laboratory for Democracy?" presented at a
European Union Conference in December 1999, describes the important
role that the Internet can play in making it possible for citizens to
make some impact on the otherwise difficult problems of their
societies. Understanding the potential of the Internet and the goals
of its early socio-technical pioneers can help to define a path for
those concerned with its continued development.
The article on the State of the Net in Hungary provides a view of how
Internet development is progressing in Hungary and the problems that
the Hungarian people are encountering to be able to have access to the
Internet. This article helps to understand the challenges to a society
trying to develop the Internet and trying to have it serve a general
purpose and socially beneficial goal.
In a similar way, the challenges of Usenet's development and the
effect on Usenet of a company archiving the posts contributed by users
is explored in "Culture Clash: The Google Purchase of the 1995-2001
Usenet Archive and the Online Community."
In this issue we express sadness with the loss to the Internet and the
world of two important Netizens, Michael Muuss and Kerry Miller.
The article on John Locke and the Privatization of the Internet
considers the importance of thinking about the way that the Internet
was originally created and the benefits that a social goal provided
for all users. John Locke's writing offers some helpful ways of
understanding how the benefits of such a shared development are
important to consider and nourish.
Serialization of the article describing the early development of the
MsgGroup mailing list ends in this issue. Reviewing this early
mailing list provides a way to look back at some of the early vision
of creating an online collaborative process. This can help provide
useful perspective toward understanding the current developments and
plans for scaling the Internet. How far have we come and where do we
as a society want to go with regard to the future of the Internet?
There is a vital need to be raising such questions publicly and
hearing from a variety of voices of users about how they perceive the
path forward. We hope that volume 10 no 2 of the Amateur Computerist
will contribute to catalyzing the much needed public discussion on
these issues.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole issue or a subscription is available for free via email.
Send a request to jrh@ais.org or see http://www.ais.org/~jrh/acn/
Individual articles are available at
http://www.ais.org/~jrh/acn/text/acn10-2.articles/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #392
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