Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 399
Netizens-Digest Tuesday, April 30 2002 Volume 01 : Number 399
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:19:16 -0400
From: "Luis G. Dequesada" <lgd42@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
Hello: I partially agree with what Mr.Schaeffer says and governments while
governments shouldn't be solely blamed for the efforts in privatizing the
internet, I cannot find more formidable allies of the big corporations than
governments, all kinds of governments capitalist and so called socialists
like those oligarchic tyrannies ruling China, Cuba and others. Governments
do become self serving and sooner or later misrepresent and turn against the
people they're suppossed to serve. Cuba is no exception I know I lived there
and Fidel Castro is a tyrant. He has been in power a whooping 43 years. I
personally think the U.S. embargo keeps perpetuates him in power.
The U.S. embargo that is because Canada, France ,Spain, Italy, Japan and the
rest of the world have never joined the U.S. in an embargo. RIght now the
big corporations have built posh 5 star hotels in Cuba, places where
admittances is restricted for foreign tourists, no Cuban need apply.
So keep the Internet as a libertarian like collective in the hands of the
people not governments and their friends the big corporations.
Lou D.
>From: jrh@ais.org (Jay Hauben)
>Reply-To: netizens@columbia.edu
>To: netizens@columbia.edu
>Subject: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 23:42:08 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Hi,
>
>This is a reposting from the nettime mailing list. It is a response to RFC
>3271 which can be seen online at http://rfc3271.x42.com. It is a response,
>the second to Vint Cerf, the author of the RFC. I think readers of the
>netizens list will find this of interest.
>
>Take care.
>
>Jay
>
> >From bbs.thing.net!owner-nettime-l Sun Apr 28 19:58:09 2002
>Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:35:12 +0200
>From: Franz Schaefer <schaefer@mond.at>
>To: nettime-l <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>
>Subject: Re: <nettime> Vinc Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
>Sender: nettime-l-request@bbs.thing.net
>Reply-To: Franz Schaefer <schaefer@mond.at>
>
>
> > > (Can anyone help to decipher this document? The Internet is for
> > > everyone. According to Vinc Cerf this is going to be the new ideology
>of
> > > the Internet Society. One really wonders what the previous ideology
>then
> > > was. The document then goes on and talks about staggering growth,
> > > Internet access on other planets, the tremendous rise of e-commerce
>(as
> > > if the dotcom crash did not happen). Cerf continues the old line of
> > > accusing only governments while remaining silent over the rise of
> > > corporate control over the Internet. Completely uncritically of what's
> > > going on inside ICANN he calls for unconditional support of ICANN,
>etc.
> > > Geert)
>
>
> the document is written as an RFC (request for comments). as most people
>here probably know, all technical aspects are defined in this form. RFC
>are the "standards" of the internet. (after they have been discussed and
>accepted).
>
> i assume that cerf wrote his memo in the form of an RFC in order to
>appeal to techies like me. what he forgets is that techies usually are not
>that stupid and most of us are not very happy with the load of neo-liberal
>bullshit expressed in this RFC. anyway. here is my C.
>
> let us dissect the dialectic of the RFC3271 document first:
>
> cerf repeats his the title of the document "the internet is for
>everyone" over and over again. a noble goal but what he fails is to define
>what he means with "the internet". he pictures an internet that growth
>exponentially. but into what kind of internet? does he mean a big shopping
>mall?
>
> indirectly, from where he thinks that the freedom of the internet is
>threatened and from where he thinks that the internet should grow we can
>deduce what kind of internet (and what kind of world) he envisions:
>
> to quote from the document:
>
> "Internet is for everyone - but it won't be if legislation around
> the world creates a thicket of incompatible laws that hinder the
> growth of electronic commerce, stymie the protection of intellectual
> property, and stifle freedom of expression and the development of
> market economies."
>
>
> obviously this guy does not understand that "protection of intellectual
>property" is one of the biggest threats to the freedom of the internet
>today.
>
> what about "market economies"? while cerf seems to know that today
>2/3 of the world live in poverty and he knows that the internet is not
>there
>yet. to quote from the RFC:
>
> " ...it is sobering to realize that only half of the Earth's population
> has ever made a telephone call."
>
> it is the "market economy" of today that is responsible for that
>sobering fact. a market economy is not interested in bringing internet to
>places where there is no money to make. a market economy is interested to
>bring the internet to people who have money. and that are the people who
>*already* have internet today.
>
> interestingly this kind of neo-liberal ideology does not hesitate to
>brake
>it's own "laws" and sanction freedom in order to destroy competing
>ideologies. think about the trade restriction the USA imposes on cuba. in
>the same way this market economy will be the first to limit growth and
>freedom of the internet as soon as it threatens to limit their profits.
>actually this is what it already does: see the DMCA. and it is done under
>the premise of "protection of intellectual property".
>
> it seems cerf does not want to look like an asshole that only wants to
>spread capitalism so he tries to point out some other uses of the internet.
>e.g: democracy. quote from the RFC again:
>
> "The Internet can facilitate democratic practices in unexpected
> ways. Did you know that proxy voting for stock shareholders is now
> commonly supported on the Internet? Perhaps we can find additional
> ways in which to simplify and expand the voting franchise in other
> domains, including the political, as access to Internet increases."
>
>
> mister cerf's understanding of democracy is certainly limited. besides
>the
>fact that he does not understand how capitalism is fundamentally opposed to
>democracy, all he can associate with democracy is the word "voting". while
>voting on the internet could be convenient the new quality that the
>internet
>could bring into democracy is that it could solve the problem that only the
>rich can afford to raise their voice in the media and in election
>campaigns.
>with an internet where it does not cost you an arm and a leg to publish
>your
>ideas the chances for the poor to have an equal voice are at least a little
>bit better. again here the question of "intellectual property" is critical,
>since it is the intellectual property laws that are used by conventional
>media
>to have a stranglehold on information.
>
> all in all the piece from mister cerf is extremely poor. it is sad to
>know
>that this man is the chief at such an important internet institution like
>ICANN. maybe he just go back to working on technical details and stay out
>of
>politics.
>
>greetings from vienna, austria.
>
>mond <fs@mond.at>
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> . Franz Schaefer NEW Fingerprint:
> .. +43/699/172 01 007 +43/676/319 52 31 GPG: 57C2 C0CC
> ... schaefer@mond.at 6F0A 54C7 0D88 D37E
> ... http://www.mond.at/ C17C CB16 CFA2 F632
>
># distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
># <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
># collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
># more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
># archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:02:56 +0200
From: Dan Duris <dusoft@staznosti.sk>
Subject: Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
Since I haven't read Cerf's RFC, I am not gonna comment it. But since
I have rad this misleading opposition talk I am gonna to react on it.
I don't think capitalism is "fundamentally opposed to demoracy", I
don't even think that author of this point has its own explanation of
it. I doubt there exists any logical explanation of how capitalism
opposes democracy. But never mind.
>From this reply it is certain that author is some left wing guy, maybe
new left, maybe not. It doesn't matter at this time, but what does
matter is fact that neo-liberalism is not thinking described in his
comment. I doubt Cerf is neo-liberalist. Actually, it seems that he
would describe himself as much more corporate man than putting him
somewhere in political spectrum. I am not sure if corporate man has to
be right wing, since good old companies supported their employees and
owenrs had strong feeling of solidarity with them.
I go mad sometimes when seeing how somebody doesn't understand
fundamental concept of liberalism and exchanges it with some
corporation system. You are mistaken dear friend, I recommend you to
study some more books on liberalism, liberalist authors preffered
since opposition always blames liberalism for everything that happens.
Don't forget if there wasn't any liberalism, Internet wouldn't be
here and we could still be using postal pigeons to send and receive
messages.
dan
- --------------------------
email: dusoft@staznosti.sk
ICQ: 17932727
*- "ye shall not rob from the house i have built" thief1 -*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:09:04 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
>Since I haven't read Cerf's RFC, I am not gonna comment it. But since
>I have rad this misleading opposition talk I am gonna to react on it.
>
>I don't think capitalism is "fundamentally opposed to demoracy", I
>don't even think that author of this point has its own explanation of
>it. I doubt there exists any logical explanation of how capitalism
>opposes democracy. But never mind.
>
>>From this reply it is certain that author is some left wing guy, maybe
>new left, maybe not. It doesn't matter at this time, but what does
>matter is fact that neo-liberalism is not thinking described in his
>comment. I doubt Cerf is neo-liberalist. Actually, it seems that he
>would describe himself as much more corporate man than putting him
>somewhere in political spectrum. I am not sure if corporate man has to
>be right wing, since good old companies supported their employees and
>owenrs had strong feeling of solidarity with them.
I do know Vint Cerf, having worked with him on a number of
committees. Admittedly, one can make a case for calling him a wine
snob, but I'd never say he doesn't have a social conscience. He does
believe that it's generally necessary to have large organizations to
build things on the scale of the ever-growing Internet.
>
>I go mad sometimes when seeing how somebody doesn't understand
>fundamental concept of liberalism and exchanges it with some
>corporation system. You are mistaken dear friend, I recommend you to
>study some more books on liberalism, liberalist authors preffered
>since opposition always blames liberalism for everything that happens.
>Don't forget if there wasn't any liberalism, Internet wouldn't be
>here and we could still be using postal pigeons to send and receive
>messages.
See http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc1149.txt for Internet via pigeon,
which was recently demonstrated by a Norwegian team.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:12:29 -0400
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
>Hello: I partially agree with what Mr.Schaeffer says and governments
>while governments shouldn't be solely blamed for the efforts in
>privatizing the internet, I cannot find more formidable allies of
>the big corporations than governments, all kinds of governments
>capitalist and so called socialists like those oligarchic tyrannies
>ruling China, Cuba and others. Governments do become self serving
>and sooner or later misrepresent and turn against the people they're
>suppossed to serve. Cuba is no exception I know I lived there and
>Fidel Castro is a tyrant. He has been in power a whooping 43 years.
>I personally think the U.S. embargo keeps perpetuates him in power.
>The U.S. embargo that is because Canada, France ,Spain, Italy, Japan
>and the rest of the world have never joined the U.S. in an embargo.
>RIght now the big corporations have built posh 5 star hotels in
>Cuba, places where admittances is restricted for foreign tourists,
>no Cuban need apply.
>So keep the Internet as a libertarian like collective in the hands
>of the people not governments and their friends the big corporations.
>Lou D.
Lou, do you have any idea how the Internet works internally, and how
there must be a certain degree of agreement for it to work? Indeed,
the motto of the Internet Engineering Task Force, that defines
Internet technical standards, is "We don't believe in kings,
presidents, or voting. We believe in rough consensus and running
code."
Let me know when a libertarian like collective builds a router that
can handle multiple OC-192, preferably OC-768, digital streams while
maintaining adjacencies with several thousand other routers. It's
not a small or cheap project.
>
>
>>From: jrh@ais.org (Jay Hauben)
>>Reply-To: netizens@columbia.edu
>>To: netizens@columbia.edu
>>Subject: [netz] Vint Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
>>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 23:42:08 -0400 (EDT)
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>This is a reposting from the nettime mailing list. It is a response to RFC
>>3271 which can be seen online at http://rfc3271.x42.com. It is a response,
>>the second to Vint Cerf, the author of the RFC. I think readers of the
>>netizens list will find this of interest.
>>
>>Take care.
>>
>>Jay
>>
>>>From bbs.thing.net!owner-nettime-l Sun Apr 28 19:58:09 2002
>>Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:35:12 +0200
>>From: Franz Schaefer <schaefer@mond.at>
>>To: nettime-l <nettime-l@bbs.thing.net>
>>Subject: Re: <nettime> Vinc Cerf: The Internet is for Everyone
>>Sender: nettime-l-request@bbs.thing.net
>>Reply-To: Franz Schaefer <schaefer@mond.at>
>>
>>
>>> > (Can anyone help to decipher this document? The Internet is for
>>> > everyone. According to Vinc Cerf this is going to be the new ideology of
>>> > the Internet Society. One really wonders what the previous ideology then
>>> > was. The document then goes on and talks about staggering growth,
>>> > Internet access on other planets, the tremendous rise of e-commerce (as
>>> > if the dotcom crash did not happen). Cerf continues the old line of
>>> > accusing only governments while remaining silent over the rise of
>>> > corporate control over the Internet. Completely uncritically of what's
>>> > going on inside ICANN he calls for unconditional support of ICANN, etc.
>>> > Geert)
>>
>>
>> the document is written as an RFC (request for comments). as most people
>>here probably know, all technical aspects are defined in this form. RFC
>>are the "standards" of the internet. (after they have been discussed and
>>accepted).
>>
>> i assume that cerf wrote his memo in the form of an RFC in order to
>>appeal to techies like me. what he forgets is that techies usually are not
>>that stupid and most of us are not very happy with the load of neo-liberal
>>bullshit expressed in this RFC. anyway. here is my C.
>>
>> let us dissect the dialectic of the RFC3271 document first:
>>
>> cerf repeats his the title of the document "the internet is for
>>everyone" over and over again. a noble goal but what he fails is to define
>>what he means with "the internet". he pictures an internet that growth
>>exponentially. but into what kind of internet? does he mean a big shopping
>>mall?
>>
>> indirectly, from where he thinks that the freedom of the internet is
>>threatened and from where he thinks that the internet should grow we can
>>deduce what kind of internet (and what kind of world) he envisions:
>>
>> to quote from the document:
>>
>> "Internet is for everyone - but it won't be if legislation around
>> the world creates a thicket of incompatible laws that hinder the
>> growth of electronic commerce, stymie the protection of intellectual
>> property, and stifle freedom of expression and the development of
>> market economies."
>>
>>
>> obviously this guy does not understand that "protection of intellectual
>>property" is one of the biggest threats to the freedom of the internet
>>today.
>>
>> what about "market economies"? while cerf seems to know that today
>>2/3 of the world live in poverty and he knows that the internet is not there
>>yet. to quote from the RFC:
>>
>> " ...it is sobering to realize that only half of the Earth's population
>> has ever made a telephone call."
>>
>> it is the "market economy" of today that is responsible for that
>>sobering fact. a market economy is not interested in bringing internet to
>>places where there is no money to make. a market economy is interested to
>>bring the internet to people who have money. and that are the people who
>>*already* have internet today.
>>
>> interestingly this kind of neo-liberal ideology does not hesitate to brake
>>it's own "laws" and sanction freedom in order to destroy competing
>>ideologies. think about the trade restriction the USA imposes on cuba. in
>>the same way this market economy will be the first to limit growth and
>>freedom of the internet as soon as it threatens to limit their profits.
>>actually this is what it already does: see the DMCA. and it is done under
>>the premise of "protection of intellectual property".
>>
>> it seems cerf does not want to look like an asshole that only wants to
>>spread capitalism so he tries to point out some other uses of the internet.
>>e.g: democracy. quote from the RFC again:
>>
>> "The Internet can facilitate democratic practices in unexpected
>> ways. Did you know that proxy voting for stock shareholders is now
>> commonly supported on the Internet? Perhaps we can find additional
>> ways in which to simplify and expand the voting franchise in other
>> domains, including the political, as access to Internet increases."
>>
>>
>> mister cerf's understanding of democracy is certainly limited. besides the
>>fact that he does not understand how capitalism is fundamentally opposed to
>>democracy, all he can associate with democracy is the word "voting". while
>>voting on the internet could be convenient the new quality that the internet
>>could bring into democracy is that it could solve the problem that only the
>>rich can afford to raise their voice in the media and in election campaigns.
>>with an internet where it does not cost you an arm and a leg to publish your
>>ideas the chances for the poor to have an equal voice are at least a little
>>bit better. again here the question of "intellectual property" is critical,
>>since it is the intellectual property laws that are used by
>>conventional media
>>to have a stranglehold on information.
>>
>> all in all the piece from mister cerf is extremely poor. it is sad to know
>>that this man is the chief at such an important internet institution like
>>ICANN. maybe he just go back to working on technical details and stay out of
>>politics.
>>
>>greetings from vienna, austria.
>>
>>mond <fs@mond.at>
>>
>>--
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> . Franz Schaefer NEW Fingerprint:
>> .. +43/699/172 01 007 +43/676/319 52 31 GPG: 57C2 C0CC
>> ... schaefer@mond.at 6F0A 54C7 0D88 D37E
>> ... http://www.mond.at/ C17C CB16 CFA2 F632
>>
>># distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
>># <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
>># collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
>># more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
>># archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #399
******************************
