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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 242
Netizens-Digest Saturday, January 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 242
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
Re: [netz] Re: Representation in Cyberspace
[netz] Channeling in action..
[netz] Re: Representation in Cyberspace
[netz] kmm009: Representation in Cyberspace
[netz] [01/08/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:14:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: Jamal Shahin <J.Shahin@selc.hull.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [netz] Re: Representation in Cyberspace
Richard,
On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, richard bohn wrote:
> Kerry Miller's recent posing of the question , ..."is it time to bring
> ....these 'artsy' perspectives together ", left me feeling queasy. There
> seemed to be the scent of embarrassment in Kerry's own perspective towards
> 'humanists'. The "perspectives" , I assume you are referring to Kerry, are
> those who see humanity as an interconnected family. Interconnected from
> synapse to cell, psyche to cyber society.
Yeah, but what is the aim? An advertising campaign for British Telecom
uses the phrase "it's good to talk", but communication must have a
purpose, mustn't it? Sure, people talk for the sake of talking, but there
must be some kind of "sub-text" inherent in all discussion. In my case
(I'll be open about this), usage of this discussion list is for my
research, and ways of trying to use the Internet for the purposes you
mention below. Absolutely, we need to "transcend centuries of
antagonistic dialectics", but we need to define what they are, and how
the Internet *can* help us in overcoming them. And, as the discussion
here seems to hint, we need to discuss ways of doing *precisely that*,
using the Internet. "Representation in Cyberspace" is thus a question which
covers the points you make below.
> I joined the netizen mailing list out of a desire to participate within a
> community of world citizens motivated by deep hope. Hope nurtured by the
> birth of this global communication tool which might allow us all to
> transcend centuries of antagonistic dialectics, yet, I have watched
>Rhonda [sic]
Is this the purpose of netizens@columbia.edu? As I've said before, the
Internet isn't global (will it ever be? - how *can* I communicate online
to any great depth with someone who doesn't speak English, or who can't
understand my very poor French or Arabic [transliterated, of course]).
Sure, critical theory has a big part to play in these debates, and I
welcome the opportunity to discuss these issues, so please, fire away. (Yet
another q for the list!)
> pound upon Mommy and Daddy's door, sobbing to be let in the Great Big House
> for months. I don't know how many other kids are standing outside the gate
I don't think it's necessarily about wanting to become a member of the
Great Big Household, but more about being able to have a say in something
so fundamentally important to the future of the world (as any analysis of
Information Society Policies in the world (yes, the whole world!) would
show) as to require a completely radical way of looking at things. If the
Great Big House as you call it is able and willing to determine policy
using old structures (dominance by the market in the Internet is not only
the easy option, but the most logical in neo-liberal terms - whatever
happened to Adam Smith's 'hidden hand'??), then the potential of the
Internet is lost, wouldn't you agree? (Commercenet rules, okay!)
> watching this conversation between maybe,only 3 or 4 voices , but, Gosh,
> can't we be a little more inclusive and playful here?
Have I stopped you from talking to the list, or to me? I sincerely hope
not, and apologise if I have restricted you from the debates. ;). I myself
am not a computer scientist, and have only a basic understanding of the
workings of TCP/IP, hubs, routers, MBones, demons, listservers, html, java,
etc. etc.
I am (by education) a political scientist, with an interest in the impact
of ICTs and the Internet in general on International Relations, and the
role of the state in the era of the Internet. That hasn't restricted me
from "imposing" my viewpoint on interested parties (and some that aren't
so interested).
So, please introduce these concepts, Richard - they are more than
appropriate, imho, as we can only criticise existing frameworks *if* we
have something to suggest as a viable alternative, however impossible it
may be to achieve them...
Below are a few urls I've found in my bookmarks file, which may
provide stimulus for further research/discussion..
http://www.curtin.edu.au/learn/unit/networld/i23/index.htm
http://kali.murdoch.edu.au/~cntinuum/CRCC/mission.htm
http://media-in-transition.mit.edu/mission/
http://www.netnexus.org/theme/index.htm
: esp. http://www.netnexus.org/theme/global/index.htm
http://www.w3.org/TandS/
These are just a result of a quick glimpse of my 600+ bookmarks, there
are many more I'm not aware of (I'm sure - where does channeling make
for me to be aware of *all* research going on in my field, Kerry?), and
some may not be relevant, but I thought I'd post them to the list asap.
I'm well aware that this discussion needs to be broken up soon, as we
seem to be going around in circles, just talking about the *problem as
opposed to possible *solutions.
I'll try (if noone else does) to suggest themes within which to formulate
this discussion in a later posting. This "channeling" might make it
easier to discuss these things...
Regards,
- --Jamal
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:50:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: Jamal Shahin <J.Shahin@selc.hull.ac.uk>
Subject: [netz] Channeling in action..
Hi there,
Couldn't resist the opportunity to provide a structure within which to work!
Below, I've tried to pinpoint the main issues that we've been discussing,
in order to see whether there's a way we can provide meaning and
*solutions to these complex points of discussion. It's my attempt at
channeling these proceedings, to make them more digestable. I just thought
it might be a good way to continue discussion, to enable others to get
involved, and to make sure that we don't just circle around these points.
Feel free to ignore, or amend this (imposition/aid) to our discussion, but
I was getting a little lost.. <g>.
As with any framework, these things all have some crossover and linkage,
but perhaps this will help us approach the subject of Internet governance
in a clearer manner. Some of them are too broad - maybe if someone would
like to comment and clarify, this could provide a useful model for
discussion?
=====================
What is the Internet? </heading1?>
What are the Internet's aims?
(Bearing in mind there is "very little understanding or concern for the
Internet" [Ronda], and that the present situation seems to reveal the
centrality of the Internet's ability to "make money" to existing
institutions.)
Who uses the Internet?
Why do they use the Internet?
(Bearing in mind the "issue of privatisation will be decided according to
what everybody who uses the Internet wants to do with it." [Greg])
The Internet as a new structure.
Impact on: Politics, Economics and Society.
Values on the Internet [Greg]
Truth, reality, legitimacy (should you be saying that on the
Internet?), trust, culture etc. etc.
No need for authority/hierarchy/censorship [Kerry]
Self governance
Need for governance (content AND infrastructure)
Who should govern? State/Market?
How? - which leads to..
Decision making online (both OF the Internet and ON the Internet)
Participation (equal influence?) vs. representation
Channeling
Input limiting
Subissues, and determining them.
etc. etc.
Thanks for your time!
- --Jamal
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:10:45 -0400
From: kerryo@ns.sympatico.ca (Kerry Miller)
Subject: [netz] Re: Representation in Cyberspace
Richard,
{ There
{ seemed to be the scent of embarrassment in Kerry's own perspective
towards
{ 'humanists'. The "perspectives" , I assume you are referring to Kerry,
{ are those who see humanity as an interconnected family.
Interconnected
{ from synapse to cell, psyche to cyber society.
I was embarrassed by my failure to find a word that included not only the
specialists in the 'humanities,' but the ordinary folk who may not be
aware of how pervasive the language of the hard sciences has become.
I considered 'fine arts' as a substitute for 'humanism,' in order to use
the latter word to do that in the next sentence, but it didnt seem to
work (and Im not in favor of distinguishing the arts from the fine arts
anyhow).
Nevertheless, interconnected family is a good phrase. Last month, I
quoted John Ralston Saul to Carsten:
> Humanism accepts the full spectrum of human characteristics --
> "spirit, appetite, faith and emotion, but also intuition, will, and
> most important, experience." ( [Voltaire's Bastards] p15; in the
> London interview, he lists "common sense, creativity, ethics,
> intuition, memory, and reason.")
In the present context of 'representation' it might be interesting to
ponder our manner of *presentation*: how much of the spectrum does ones
writing express? Does it correlate with the sense of exclusion or
inclusion in the conversation another might feel, whether vocal or
silent? Is it enough to 'speak to the speaker' if our intention is to
broaden the compass of participation in internet governance -- that is,
to invlove (sic!) 'all of them who use the Internet' (but dont see where
to plug in)? Is it in short, a matter not of message content but of
*style*?
=======
Greg wrote
{ I think ultimately, the issue of privatization of Internet resources
{ will be decided according to what the people (all of them) who use the
{ Internet want to do with it.
Strategically speaking, the rationalist/ humanist divide is between
*deciding for* the invisible masses (on the assumption that they will
rebel if they dont like what they get), and working *with them to
articulate what they 'want to do with it' in the same ongoing way as
Ronda has shown that we got this far. It seems to me that the latter is,
at the very least, an entirely valid thing they might want to do -- and
one even the rationalists might accept on their behalf, if we had a big
enough hammer to hit them on the head with it ;-)
kerry
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:10:45 -0400
From: kerryo@ns.sympatico.ca (Kerry Miller)
Subject: [netz] kmm009: Representation in Cyberspace
Ronda,
{ >The net is uinique only in that it is a communication medium which
came
{ >out of technical left field, with minimal social context.
...
{ What I have found is that the social power of the Internet has come
{ out of not only someone developing technology, but out of a vision
{ for a different world that guided the pioneers who worked on this
{ development.
{
I agree, a *vision*, not an extrapolation of contemporary social
functions -- radio, newspaper, Chatauquas or anything else.
{
{ That the cooperative practices that helped to make the net developments
{ possible grew out of the design principles - i.e. that the
{ interface had to be designed by those using the interface, not
{ planned outside of them for them as the commercial world functions.
{
Again, *those using the interface*, not a larger society which felt
either a shortcoming of extant media (as radio led to 'multimedia' TV) or
a need to interact with people they had never met. Now that the Net has
revealed such potentials, we're busily trying to find ways to assimilate
it into familiar social contexts such as virtual community and
distributed education, but the clear leader in this is obviously the
marketplace. What future sociologists may find most remarkable is that
the concept of marketing as a *collective activity in the _agora had
changed so radically *prior to the existence of the net* to emphasise
personal privacy and 'freedom of choice', that at this point we are
trying to conceive how to preserve a 'social' function *independently of
commercial enterprise.
In any other culture, if communication per se needed encouragement, the
natural place to start would be with the 'chatgroups' that form around
the grocery stalls and watering holes - and yes, websites that support
comment lines are finding it's good for business. I'm wondering tho if
the feedback is acted on (and how one would find out) -- and whether many
of the people who contribute get in touch with one another or would
recognize each other if they 'met' at another site.
kerry
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:18:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Art McGee <amcgee@igc.org>
Subject: [netz] [01/08/1999]: Culture, Class, and Cyberspace
[The date in the subject indicates the last time this list was updated]
Greetings,
I don't agree with all the conclusions, but listed below are some very
interesting and important resources, dealing with the intersection of
ethnicity, culture, class, poverty, computers, and cyberspace.
Even if you're busy, please be sure to at least browse them.
By the way, many of the links lead to original material, not the
summarized articles with similar titles that you may have read
in a newspaper or magazine.
- ---
[Ethnicity and Culture Section]
Atlantic Monthly 99.01:
Technology Versus African-Americans
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/aftech.htm
First Monday 3.11: Africa Connected
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue3_11/hall/
Virtual University/Segregated Highway?
The Politics of Connectivity
http://www.meg.uct.ac.za/martin/paper3.htm
Brillo Magazine, Issue Number 3, "The Invasion"
Resisting Erase-ism on the 'Net
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/erasism.htm>
CTHEORY: Global Algorithm 1.10:
Deregulation/Globalisation: The Loss of Cultural Diversity?
<http://www.ctheory.com/ga1.10-deregulation.html>
Buying into the Computer Age:
A Look at Hispanic Families
<http://www.cgu.edu/inst/aw1-1.html>
UnderCurrent #4:
Virtual Whiteness and Narrative Diversity
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~ucurrent/uc4/4-lockard.html
Brillo Magazine, Issue Number 2, "A Bug in the Wetware"
Buggin' in and Out: Eye Dialectal Nightmares in Cyberspace
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No2/email.htm>
Brillo Magazine, Issue Number 2, "A Bug in the Wetware"
In Bed with the Devil
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No2/rant.htm>
The Unbearable Whiteness of Being:
African American Critical Theory and Cyberculture
<http://www.kalital.com/Text/Writing/Whitenes.html>
Cultural Uses of New, Networked Internet Information and
Communication Technologies: Implications for US Latino Identities
<http://sunsite.unc.edu/jlillie/thesis.html>
Bridging the Digital Divide:
The Impact of Race on Computer Access and Internet Use
<http://www2000.ogsm.vanderbilt.edu/papers/race/science.html>
What it Means to be Black in Cyberspace
<http://www.panix.com/~mbowen/cz/identity/blakCMC.html>
Cyborg Diaspora:
Virtual Imagined Community
<http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~radhik/sanov.html>
Race In/For Cyberspace:
Identity Tourism and Racial Passing on the Internet
<http://acorn.grove.iup.edu/en/workdays/Nakamura.html>
American Emissaries to Africa:
>From John Barlow via James Bond to James Baldwin and Back
<http://www.factory.org/nettime/archive/1292.html>
What Color is the Net?
<http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/97/11/index2a.html>
WIRED 3.12:
Idees Fortes - Race in Cyberspace?
<http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/departments/berger.if.html>
Book Review:
The African-American Resource Guide to the Internet
<http://www.otal.umd.edu/~rccs/books/battle.html>
Black Pioneers of the Internet
<http://www.delphi.com/blackpioneers/>
Forsaken Geographies:
Cyberspace and the New World 'Other'
<http://eng.hss.cmu.edu/internet/oguibe/>
<http://arts.usf.edu/~ooguibe/madrid.htm>
On Digital 'Third Worlds':
An interview with Olu Oguibe
<http://arts.usf.edu/~ooguibe/springer.htm>
The Virtual Barrio @ The Other Frontier
(or the Chicano inerneta)
<http://www.telefonica.es/fat/egomez.html>
Cultural Survival Quarterly:
The Internet and Indigenous Communities
<http://www.cs.org/csq/csqinternet.html>
Nils Zurawskis' Ethnicity and Culture in Cyberspace Papers
<http://www.uni-muenster.de/Soziologie/Home/zurawski/papers.html>
[The next link is to some comments I made a few years ago]
AFROAM-L Archives - February 1995:
Race, Ethnicity, Culture, and Cyberspace
<http://www.afrinet.net/~hallh/afrotalk/afrofeb95/0796.html>
[Below is a great essay (not specifically dealing with cyberspace), that
discusses multiple identities from an apparently non-European perspective]
The Multiple Self:
Exploring Between and Beyond Modernity and Postmodernity
<http://www1.umn.edu/irp/multiple.htm>
[Lastly, a link to a resource page that contains general and
gender-based papers on net sociology/identity]
The Media and Communication Studies Site
Resource Page for Gender, Ethnicity & Class: Social and Personal Identity
<http://www.aber.ac.uk/~dgc/gender05.html>
- ---
[Class and Poverty Section]
CTHEORY: Global Algorithm 1.4:
The Theory of the Virtual Class
<http://www.ctheory.com/ga1.4-theory_virtual.html>
The Internet and Poverty:
Real Help or Real Hype?
<http://www.oneworld.org/panos/briefing/interpov.htm>
Possible Roles for Electronic Community Networks and Participatory
Development Strategies in Access Programs for Poor Neighborhoods
<http://www.unc.edu/~jlillie/310.html>
High Technology and Low-Income Communities:
Prospects for the Positive Use of Advanced Information Technology
<http://web.mit.edu/sap/www/high-low/>
Losing Ground Bit by Bit:
Low-Income Communities in the Information Age
<http://www.benton.org/Library/Low-Income/>
Falling Through the Net II:
New Data on the Digital Divide
<http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/net2/>
Impact of CTCnet Affiliates:
Findings from a National Survey of Users of Community Technology Centers
<http://www.ctcnet.org/impact98.htm>
Cybersociology Magazine:
Issue 3 - Digital Third Worlds
<http://members.aol.com/Cybersoc/issue3.html>
- ---
[Gender and Sexuality Section]
[In this section, I'm keeping the focus on Women and GLBT people of color,
which is why you aren't seeing as many listings as you might expect]
Womenspace Spring 98: Black Women on the Net
<http://www.womenspace.ca/vol33e.html>
Brillo Magazine, Number 1, "Armed and Dangerous"
Like Fish to W.A.T.E.R.
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No1/water.htm>
Brillo Magazine, Number 1, "Armed and Dangerous"
Turned On, Plugged In, Left Out
<http://www.virago-net.com/brillo/No1/pluggedi.htm>
- ---
[Definitive Quote Section]
Lastly, in case you're wondering why I even bothered to put this list
together, one of my "white" colleagues said it better than I ever could:
"We're resisting the tired-but-still-commonly-accepted idea that the
virtual world provides a somehow "level" playing field, in which race,
gender, [and] culture(s) no longer matter. We think that such ideas are
based on the false notion that there's a normative white male middle-class
culture to which all folks can gain access, now that the barriers imposed
by the physical body have been miraculously removed. We want [to see]
essays, articles, and examples of work which show that the "politics of
identity" is alive and well on the internet, and that instead of regressing
to a sort of Eisenhowerian procession of the bland leading the bland, there
are people out there using electronic technology to emphasize and celebrate
and motivate and defend their own communities and cultural ideals."
"There's been a lot of talk (mostly by white men) about the "liberating"
potential of the internet and of virtual spaces. What they usually mean
is a liberation *from* the body, to some kind of higher plane. But we're
interested in how folks whose bodies are usually threatened by the power
structure (nonwhite folks, women, poor people, queer folks) are using the
internet as a platform for making themselves more visible (a liberation
*of* the body), and how that connects to other contemporary activist
movements."
Kali Tal
Lecturer, University of Arizona
- ---
Art McGee
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
| Organization Consultant Institute for Global Communications |
| SEIU Local 790 IRS 501(c)(3) |
| http://www.igc.org/ amcgee@igc.org |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
New Yorker Cartoon (Internet Savvy Dog):
"On the Internet, no one knows that you're a dog."
Art McGee (Internet Ignorant Dog added to cartoon):
"What's wrong with being a dog?"
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End of Netizens-Digest V1 #242
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