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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 166
Netizens-Digest Monday, June 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 166
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
[netz] Pro Spam Legislation
[netz] Response I received to my Netizenship as Model for Citzenship post
[netz] Netizenship as model for Citizenship
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Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 18:13:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Hauben <hauben@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] Pro Spam Legislation
Poster was Jay Hauben <jay@dorsai.org>
The question of laws dealing with spam is important. Communications media
require socail regulation to prevent abuse since abuse has an economic
advantage to the abuser. This legislation seems to favor the abuser too much
but is food for thought.
>From list_error@medea.wz-berlin.de Tue May 26 08:20:55 1998
Subject: Spam Spam Spam.........
<schnipp>
>
>PRO-SPAM BILL CLOSE TO BECOMING LAW!
>====================================
>
>As you may be aware, in the dark of the night on May 12, Senators
>Murkowski and Torricelli offered an amendment to a bill dealing with the
>long distance industry. This amendment threatens to legalize and
>legitimize the sending of junk email. The entire bill -- including the
>new junk email language -- was passed by the full Senate and sent to the
>House of Representatives. Identical language to the Murkowski-Torricelli
>amendment was introduced late last week by Rep. Billy Tauzin (R-LA), the
>Chairman of the Telecommunications, Trade and Consumer Protection
>Subcommitee of the House Commerce Committee -- who, by the way, will
>decide what action, if any, will be taken on the Smith Bill. Rep. Tauzin
>has previously offered pro-marketing legislation on spam (see
><http://www.cauce.org/why.html> for details).
>
>This new language by Murkowski and Torricelli is extremely similar to
>pro-spam language previously offered by Sen. Torricelli... which has
>already been favored by the Direct Marketing Association (DMA) and other
>large marketing organizations. As currently written, this legislation
>would permit marketers to send out unlimited quantites of junk email as
>long as they refrain from putting fake address information in their
>email, and as long as they have a means of honoring remove requests. Any
>violations would only be enforceable by the Federal Trade Commission or
>by ISPs -- not users.
<schnipp>
Heiko
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:02:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] Response I received to my Netizenship as Model for Citzenship post
I received the following response to my post about Netizenship as a
Model for Citizenship and thought it would be interesting to others
on the Netizens list - as it seems to equate Netizens with
liberatians, in the way that one might misrepresent citizens as
belonging to some one party and thus deny there is a category such
as citizen.
It was sent to me by the moderator of the cyberurbanity mailing list
in Greece.
Ronda
>From mboudour@duth.gr Sat May 30 06:24:58 1998
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From: "George A. Stathis" <hyplogic@compulink.gr>
To: Multiple recipients of list CYBERURBANITY <cyberurbanity@demokritos.cc.duth.gr>
Subject: Netizenship as model for Citizenship-to-avoid
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Ronda Hauben wrote:
> I have come across an interesting article by Leszek Jesien
> from Poland "The 1996 IGC: European Citizenship Reconsidered".
[...]
> I found this paper very interesting as it recognized the importance
> of Netizens and Netizenry and suggested that those interested in
> issues of citizenship look at what has developed online and learn
> from it.
[...]
It would be interesting to read this paper, and re-examine the author's
*depth* of netizenship experience. - Probably not enough....
Of course we can become... politically incorrect, and remind ourselves of
how nice, intelligent, but also... naive & gullible many Polish people are!
- -I reserve this view as a personal prejudice which is my... right to
keep;-)
previously married to a Pole, I know Polish thinking quite well, :-) but
here
on the net one can be accused of racism, if one distinguishes "ways peoples
act or think" :->
> The article by Jesien then discusses the issue of citizenship,
> first civil, then political, then social. He is concerned
> with the notion of European citizenship and is looking to
> see if there is any model or help from scholars toward
> determining what European citizenship can be modeled on.
Europe is not yet strong or experienced enough to work seriously
on a _transcendence of American CyberLibertarian politics_. We
are going to waste our resources a lot, by importing such politics
"raw and uncooked". And we don't yet have a viable alternative...
- -Which is why the Internet may be a "Trojan Horse", for America
continuing to dominate Europe; Culturally as well as economically.
> He agrees with Silvio Fagiolo, who was the first chairman
> of the 1996 Intergovermental Conference under the Italian
> Prsidency, that the European Union has an important task
> of bringing the Union closer to the citizens of Europe.
Easier said than done. At least we want the E. Union not
to... break our balls any further; :-) we don't really care at all
what... fancy politicians do (when they dine and talk or... sleep
among themselves) but we do care about policies implemented
without our own (even remote) participation in their decisions.
- - And at the moment such participation is close enough to zero.
The Net is an attractive medium for some European aspirations
to more democracy, because of the possibility of more direct
participation of the people in the E.Union's decisions. O.T.H.
this would necessitate such voluminous costs e.g. in raising
the numbers of people who are on-line, here in Europe, that
it's probably impossible (at this stage) to implement.
Certainly, if we (1) had an alternative, more democratic (and
less 'cyberlibertarian') vision of people-participation, and
if (2) such participation was technically offered to European
citizens freely a priori (+a free terminal for each European?)
then, and only then, could we begin to talk _seriously_ of a
_democratic_ alternative to the "American CyberDream".
(which is... U.S. corporate feudalism in disguise).
> He asks the question "What does it mean to be a European
> citizen? (pg 3) and refers to the work of the Reflection
> Group in taking on to determine this issue.
It's very important for us Europeans to _implement_ things
like electronic voting; to devise a system whereby our own
electronic communities have _altogether different_ and much
more democratic structures than American (90%? of present-day)
e-communities. Certainly there are some Euro- e-communities
that are... lessons to avoid; but the main thing is to see exactly
what's missing from present-day e-communities (e.g. nearly all
e-lists are built as "private property of list-owners") and to
try and implement it. -We could invoke European democratic
traditions, which the "spectacular American model" brushes
over, since the American model of e-communities (also when
imported in Europe) infantilises participants of e-communities
as... irresponsible cattle run by cowboys! I.e. Dignity of citizens
is NOT respected, in many/most American e-communities; Only
by compliance and agreement with "the group" can persons gain
their dignity & (self-)respect in many/most U.S. e-communities!
There, list-owners act like tiny dictators, and e-mobs can also
be very dangerous. These things have been imported also into
European e-communities, and have been practised, "under our
noses", because we are... ASLEEP, we are NOT aware of such
'cyber-corrosion', against our democratic social habits & ethics.
We may also feel defeatist, sometimes, about the fact that there
appears to be "One World", and this World is America. And
also the Net appears to be a vehicle for American culture atthe highest
level: The level of CyberCultures' Organisation.However, we may begin to
recover from cultural colonialismby a systematic critique of "The American
CyberDream", the
source of many of our problems: The Magna Carta of Cyber-
Space is _ultra-right conservative thinking in freedom-loving
disguise_. Just because there isn't a "real" alternative to the
"One World" of this CyberDream, doesn't mean that there can't
be one in the immediate future. -But in order to construct such
alternatives we must develop a Critical Theory of CyberSpace.
> His article then looks at various definitions of citizenship:
> "By the political element I mean the right to participate
> and exercise of political power,. as a member of a body invested
> with political authority..." (quoting "Class,. Citizenship,.
> and Social Development,. 1977)
> "...the core of the issue of .... citizenship"
> "The issue of responsible participation in the political life."
All these things necessitate electronic voting, orsome other system of
collective decision-making.
So, :-) WHERE IS IT??? huh? :-)
> "The defining point of this process will be the *transition*
> from the *concept* of the *market* to that of citizenship
> by which I mean a greater direct involvement of the citizens
> in the running of the Union (European Union)."
Exactly. Let the U.S. slide on a slope of market-basedpseudo-democracy;
the "democracy" of feudal landlords
and their obedient citizens/consumers... In Europe, in the
meantime, we can do better than this: We can laugh with
the way American CyberSpace deteriorates, whilst finding
novel ways to develop people's participation in our affairs.
> "What does it mean to be [a European] citizen?"
- - To be as-yet-uninfected by American CyberCulture. ;-)))
> "....By fulfilling all possible needs (understood as rights)
> of the people we do not create citizenship."
Nope; in the end, a citizen cannot have "representatives"but needs to voice
his opinions *directly*...
All the technical preconditions for _direct democracy_ are
already here and yet NO such thing has been implemented.
Why? :->>>
> "It may be a necessary condition,. but it certainly is not a
> sufficient one."
>
> "...in a democratic polity it is the principle that power can be
> held and governance exercised only with the consent of the
> governed."
"Manufacturing consent" (tm Chomsky) is the way governments"legitimise
themselves", and is of no consequence. What we in
Europe must grasp, is that in the world to come, perhaps in many
years or decades from now, there will have to be 100% collective
decision making ANYWAY. That our politicians and our old politics
are ALREADY DEAD, because Representative Democracy is dying.
We should not feed the... vampires of today's politics, but prepare for
a future without them: A future characterised by corporate rule, and by
feudal social organisation (on one side), and by an as-yet-undeveloped
"new system" of "direct citizens' participation", which is *our* task to
develop here in Europe. If we don't develop it here in Europe, we are
going to be lost inside the other "feudal system", never overcoming it.
> "...the Europeans are dissatisfied with the European politics"
If they knew more about American politics they'd be glad tobe European...
:-)))
> "In the member states of the Union,. and elsewhere in the democratic
> world the citizens are dissatisfied with their political institutions,.
> their politicians,. the way things are going in their countries."
Of course, and this is a natural process. On both sides of
the Atlantic, gradually politicians will be swept away by
the two processes mentioned...
Corporations will rule anyway; the issue is how to make
"peope's corporations", and what kind of social structure
such "new corporations" will have. ???
> "Philippe Schmitter argues that the future is rather for the post
> liberal kind of democracy than the 'more liberal'."
> "the more liberal with less democracy -- radical privatization
> with less of citizens participation resulting in a de-democratisation"
> "or the pre-liberal one (a kind of new 'civic republicanism' with
> more of direct rule of the people.)
What exactly is "post liberalism"?
Here in Europe we suffered enough :-) to be able to
understand Libertarianism and CyberLibertarianism...
> "The post-liberal version is not yet clearly formulated."
I'd bet it's not...
> "At the time the European Union struggles to shape the European
> citizenship with much effort and little success, the other
> citizenship - Netizenship - emerges. The IGC negotiators and
> European political leaders should perhaps look at this
> phenomenon with sympathy and attention."
Who? Politicians?They are... sad greedy bastards trying to save their
skulls
by grabbing a piece of wood in the sea; THIS is how they
see the Net, licking their lips, and rubbing their hands.
:-)))
But the Net is NOT a life-saving piece of... e-wood for
a sinking political system, NOR a... device for corporate
imperialism. It's just a... strange communication medium
- -and the strangest thing about it is that nobody's yet done
enough of the simplest things inside it... (like e-voting)...
> I wondered if there is similar work going on elsewhere
> studying the work of Netizens and Netizenry.
Oh, LOTS!!!Begin by examining Ms. Dyson's Colgate-type beautiful
smile.... :-) ;->
> My research involves looking at early Usenet and the early
> Internet and it is important that those who are interested
> in these issues or are doing such work communicate and
> collaborate.
If we look at early Usenet, chances are we will be
seriously mislead. Usenet and e-lists are not the
same anymore. They're more like a... sewer full
of "bad memes". :->
Enough said, there's lots to be done (by you);
Keep it up, and keep us humble netizens informed.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:05:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] Netizenship as model for Citizenship
Responding to message from "George A. Stathis" <hyplogic@compulink.gr>
which appeared on the cyberurbanity mailing list
(This is a beginning response to the his comments)
Part I of Response
>Sender: cyberurbanity@demokritos.cc.duth.gr
>From: "George A. Stathis" <hyplogic@compulink.gr>
>Subject: Netizenship as model for Citizenship-to-avoid
I found "Netizenship as model for Citizenship-to-avoid"
response very interesting and have extensive comments on
it so will break up my response. Also I will be sending my response
to the Netizens list as well as to the cyberurbanity list (I'm hoping
I can reply to the cyberurbanity list even though I am not a member.)
One basic point is that this comment seems to equate Netizens
with Libertarians.
This is like equating citizens in France with the members of a
particular party and thus saying that there are no citizens.
I was recently at an ACM conference in Washington D.C. -- POLICY '98.
One of the papers presented at the conference was from someone
who was a libertarian (Barry Fagan).
His paper also denied that there are Netizens online and he called
everyone online a libertarian.
This is very far from true.
But more importantly, this denies that there are Netizens online.
And it raises the question of what are Netizens and can Netizens
contribute to making the role of citizens something that is
more in line with the needs of our times than the frustrated
role that people (including many in the U.S. and around the world)
feel we are delegated to.
And that gets to another general aspect of "Citizenship-to-avoid"
that I wanted to point out. It equates the U.S. people with the
U.S. corporations. There are many in the U.S. who are employees
(or workers) and who are oppressed by U.S. corporations or the
domination of the U.S.
government by U.S. corporations.
There has been and is opposition to the commercialization of the Internet
in the U.S. (and the NTIA online conference in May 1994 which is
described in several chapters of our book "Netizens: On the History
and Impact of Usenet and the Internet".)
With those general comments, I begin a response to the particulars of
>Subject: Netizenship as model for Citizenship-to-avoid
This is an important discussion, so I welcome the chance to have
it and am happy that my post was put on the cyberurbanity mailing list:-)
Also I hope others join in.
>Ronda Hauben wrote:
>> I have come across an interesting article by Leszek Jesien
>> from Poland "The 1996 IGC: European Citizenship Reconsidered".
>[...]
>> The article by Jesien then discusses the issue of citizenship,
>> first civil, then political, then social. He is concerned
>> with the notion of European citizenship and is looking to
>> see if there is any model or help from scholars toward
>> determining what European citizenship can be modeled on.
>Europe is not yet strong or experienced enough to work seriously
>on a _transcendence of American CyberLibertarian politics_. We
But Netizenship is *not* American CyberLibertarian politics.
So I wonder why this equation was made?
>are going to waste our resources a lot, by importing such politics
>"raw and uncooked". And we don't yet have a viable alternative...
>-Which is why the Internet may be a "Trojan Horse", for America
>continuing to dominate Europe; Culturally as well as economically.
I agree that a commercialized Internet with particular big corporate
entities dominating would be something that those around the world
should distrust and oppose. And that includes folks in the U.S.,
as the corporate culture is not a peoples' culture and those of
us who recognize how oppresive this is are delighted to find allies
among folks around the world.
>> He agrees with Silvio Fagiolo, who was the first chairman
>> of the 1996 Intergovermental Conference under the Italian
>> Prsidency, that the European Union has an important task
>> of bringing the Union closer to the citizens of Europe.
>Easier said than done. At least we want the E. Union not
>to... break our balls any further; :-) we don't really care at all
>what... fancy politicians do (when they dine and talk or... sleep
>among themselves) but we do care about policies implemented
>without our own (even remote) participation in their decisions.
>- And at the moment such participation is close enough to zero.
That is true of folks in the U.S. and around the world.
That is why this article was so interesting.
I just went to the Tompkins Square Arts Festival on Saturday in
the East Village in NYC, and one of the posters that was painted
depicted the NYC government taking away due process from the people
of NYC.
It represented the frustration of the fact that people have
no way of being heard by various branches of the U.S. government.
>The Net is an attractive medium for some European aspirations
>to more democracy, because of the possibility of more direct
>participation of the people in the E.Union's decisions. O.T.H.
>this would necessitate such voluminous costs e.g. in raising
>the numbers of people who are on-line, here in Europe, that
>it's probably impossible (at this stage) to implement.
France made Minitel terminals available to many, and the freenet
movement has also showed that it is possible to make low cost
access available. So it isn't impossible, just that it doesn't
seem to be what the powers that be desire.
>Certainly, if we (1) had an alternative, more democratic (and
>less 'cyberlibertarian') vision of people-participation, and
>if (2) such participation was technically offered to European
>citizens freely a priori (+a free terminal for each European?)
>then, and only then, could we begin to talk _seriously_ of a
>_democratic_ alternative to the "American CyberDream".
>(which is... U.S. corporate feudalism in disguise).
Again - the article and my post were talking about Netizenship
and Netizens *not* about cyberlibertarianism.
The word Netizen has spread around the world. When I was in Greece
last May, I saw a new magazine on the Newstand called "Netizen"
- -- the first issue was May 1, 1997.
I will send a copy of how Michael describes the uses of the word
Netizen, but that should *not* be equated with *cyberlibertarians*
because it is quite different.
Also when Michael posted the "Draft Declaration of the Rights of
Netizens" many with libertarian viewpoints attacked it, but it
has also been welcomed by many online as there are many Netizens :-)
>> He asks the question "What does it mean to be a European
>> citizen? (pg 3) and refers to the work of the Reflection
>> Group in taking on to determine this issue.
(to be continued)
Ronda
ronda@panix.com
Netizens: On the History and Impact
of Usenet and the Internet
http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/
and in print edition ISBN # 0-8186-7706-6
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #166
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