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Netizens-Digest Volume 1 Number 168
Netizens-Digest Monday, June 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 168
Netizens Association Discussion List Digest
In this issue:
[netz] Re: Netizens are net.citizens of the Net
[netz] Re: Global Democracy,
[netz] Tidbit: Usenet text content > 4x WWW text content
[netz] Netizens List Digests 165 to 167
[netz] ACN issue "Usenet: the Unsung Hero of the Internet"
[netz] Draft for comment on creating the Internet and the cutover to tcp/ip
[netz] INET 98 july 21-24
[netz] IANA discussion on DNS and some thoughts-early Internet paper available
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Hauben <hauben@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] Re: Netizens are net.citizens of the Net
Approved: 7683
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 08:00:39 +0200
From: Antonio Rossin <rossin@tin.it>
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To: netizens@columbia.edu
Subject: Re: [netz] Re: Netizens are net.citizens of the Net
References: <199806022046.QAA05882@panix3.panix.com>
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Ronda Hauben wrote:
>
> I am forwarding the 2nd part of my response to George A. Stathis
> to the Netizens list as it concerns Netizens and thus
> seems appropriate for this list as well.
>
> I welcome comments on the discussion.
>
(snip)
> >traditions, which the "spectacular American model" brushes
> >over, since the American model of e-communities (also when
> >imported in Europe) infantilises participants of e-communities
>
> I didn't think of early Usenet as an "American model" but
> rather an early online model - it was an example of
> a lot of folks working very hard to create a new communication
> medium and to make it available to others.
>
(snip)
> Those who claim that there is no reason to look at the
> actual data of how the Net was created, but instead
> classify it as cyberlibertarian are losing the lessons
> that we can learn from the important beginnings of the Net.
>
> Often the principles of something new are clearest in its
> early days as that is when it has to distinguish itself
> from the old and figure out what the new is.
Ronda,
as a newcomer, I could agree about your early Net-principles even
though I do not know them exactly - but I am trustful.
Nevertheless, you make me think of "developing peoples" (forgive
me this racist term) when you deliver them modern technologies,
like E-technologies and communications, most of all they will use
the new power as in weapons for their traditional struggles. It
sounds unpossible, passing in no time from bow and arrows to guns
and rockets.
If the traditional struggle was between conservativeness and
"changes", you will see the conservative people using the Net
to keep on and strengthen their privileges.
Well now: do you want really to overcome the already existing
social privileges through the Net (I'm pretty sure this is one
of your above "early" principles ;-)) ? Then, connectivity as
in itself will not be enough, rather it will increase the gap
between the rich and the poor, say, in terms of resources
availability. It will really be a "Trojan horse"...
>
> >as... irresponsible cattle run by cowboys! I.e. Dignity of citizens
> >is NOT respected, in many/most American e-communities; Only
>
> Early Usenet and the Internet were very far from "irresponsible
> cattle run by cowboys!"
>
> People were able to speak out and discuss their problems and
> differences in a way that isn't often possible nowadays,
> except on the Net.
>
I disagree. As I have experienced, on the Net, you can discuss of
everything but the Authority Principle - which is the most powerful
means of conservativeness. Therefore the Mailing Lists, that should
be the core of cultural excanges, are arranged as Band-wagons only,
that is, the manipulation of consent and agreement around the
strongest one, ie. the winner of the top position of a (conservative)
pecking order.
> > also the Net appears to be a vehicle for American culture at the
> > highestlevel: The level of CyberCultures' Organisation. However,
> > we may begin to
>
> But American culture has employers and employees - it has
> corporate culture and public culture -- and the corporate
> culture tries to insist it is all there is, but there
> are those in the U.S. who are trying to defend the public
> culture which includes the critique of the corporate attempt
> to dominate all.
>
Maybe I was unlucky, Ronda, but I didn't find any. Might you help?
(snip)
>
> >> "The defining point of this process will be the *transition*
> >> from the *concept* of the *market* to that of citizenship
> >> by which I mean a greater direct involvement of the citizens
> >> in the running of the Union (European Union)."
>
> > Exactly. Let the U.S. slide on a slope of market-based
> > pseudo-democracy;the "democracy" of feudal landlords
> > and their obedient citizens/consumers... In Europe, in the
>
> Here we agree also - that the Net that was built was built
> under government and academic funding and decisions -- and
> that trying to change it into some kind of "market based"
> entity is disastrous to all.
>
> And that is what those who are trying to make the Net commercial
> are trying to do.
>
I also agree on this point. But you know, the market bases itself
on the buyer people's demands. You cannot repress the market
instead of changing the buyers's demands. That is exactly what
happens today about war against drugs. We are dealing with the
answers (ie., the market) towards either "liberalisation" or
"prohibitionism" of drugs - but we are doing nothing to lessen
the demand for drugs in people's minds and traditional culture.
Why? Because it would change the traditional culture, and the
authority principle.
Did you ever think, that the prize for the accomplying fellow,
is the authority's smiling benevolence? And that the accomplying,
servile attitude is rooted with the authority's principle in the
early parent/child relationship? This is the core of our cultural
conservativeness, and the demanding for -- and the market.
Now, do you want the Net to be a means for cultural (ex)changes?
Very fine. But, you keep avoiding to discuss the Authority's
principle (also called "The No-Contradiction Principle") since
the first family communication relationships, that is, defending
actually the traditional conservative family model? Aha, what
a disguise... You will see, how they will run the Net, towards
the market.
More stuff at: <http://www.mripermedia.com/Rossin>
cheers,
antonio
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:11:21 +0200
From: Antonio Rossin <rossin@tin.it>
Subject: [netz] Re: Global Democracy,
Hi Bill,
Ok., now we have all the cultural elements for a real "Grassroots
bottom-Up" second phase of democracy, and a powerful communication
technology. That doesnt but sound enough, in everybody's evidence.
What we are lacking with, is the catalyst. What could it be?
o Technology cannot. It already exists, but Second Democracy (SD)
is still out of the door even where connectivity is spread.
Nor communication seems to need of a media quicker than your pc
and the internet.
o Our current cultural elements cannot. They already exist as today's
Science, but SD has not come so far.
oo The above sum cannot. Yet it is here, more or less, but SD is not.
And then?
Then I am offering some new items of information. I dont know
whether they are the needed catalyst, but they are news for sure,
and all of them address to the "Grassroots bottom -> Up" way of
communication.
1) The effectiveness of communication is a function of the
listener's understanding ability.
This leads to stop empowering mass media and corporate
advisors, stop trusting in them, and start empowering
Critical Thinking and Flexibility in people's minds.
That is, it is a matter of basical, earliest education
aiming at the delicate time when every baby begins to
build and fix her brain connections and mind framework.
Really, this sounds looking for the deepest "Grassroots
bottom" outcome.
2) The basical, earliest educative environment, under whose
pressure the child models herself, is the family, through
the play of language relationships:
* between a parent and the (significant) other first of all,
either dialectics- or "No Contradiction Principle" based,
* and then between the above parents's language patterning
and the child - either systematically allowing right place
to the latter's initiative or to the parents's only.
This sounds looking for the family, as the molding pot for
the traits of the future SD inhabitants. It is also worth
noting that "Educate your child and you'll educate yourself".
3) SD principles must be deeply embodied in people's minds.
It means, people must take principles such as 1) and 2) into
their hearts. To this aim, I recall that an educative model
being responsible for Critical Thinking and Flexibility is
also suitable for Primary Prevention of drugs addiction.
This info, because it concerns directly to children, sounds
to have the greatest grasp on people's hearts.
This suggests us that the short way for SD is searching for the
family educative model more suitable for Primary Prevention. The
same model will work for Global Second Democracy pretty well.
All of the above matter is largely exposed at:
<http://www.mripermedia.com/Rossin>. Give a look. The reason:
I dont what change you're looking at, for SD. But I know that
whatever change always and unavoidably requests for the same
condition in people's minds: more Flexibility
Just my two cents,
Antonio Rossin - sorry for crossing posts (but the stake sounds great,
forgive me) and starting for fishing in his turn ;-)
PS.:
WARNING
There are too many "Up-to-Down" lists going on in "Grassroots
bottom-to-Up" disguise, all around here... actually, no real
"Grassroots bottom-to-Up" community (nor SD) could reasonably
succeed unless it starts from the child, that is from the first
basical educative room where the latter is allowed to build
herself: ie., the Family framework
Comments?
Bill Ellis wrote:
>
> I'm on a fishing trip.
> I received an interesting e-mail about cyberspace citizenry and am
> looking for its origin. I think it got to me via Antonio Rossini
> from Italy, but its path was so garbled I couldn't discern the origin.
> If any of you can help please do.
>
> My interest is in using modern technologies and ideas to create a
> second phase of democracy. The first phase of democracy (since the
> Greek and Roman experiments) came on the scene around 1775 with the
> American and French Revolutions. It came with little preparation
> into a world dominated by "the divine right of kings."
> It had neither the modern technologies nor the modern civil society.
> To most governments democracy was a foolish idea. Governments, of
> course opposed it.
>
> In spite of that, and because of that, the first phase of democracy
> was only a partial success. Communication was measured in days and
> weeks not nano seconds as it is today. The worldview was of an Earth
> created for the use of man, not a cosmos composed of systems within
> systems; humanity being merely one of those systems. Government was
> believed to be the controller of society, not the servant of society.
> (Since then Corporations have taken over that function of government.)
>
> Today we are on the verge of a second phase of democracy. Grassroots
> Citizens Organizations (GCOs once called NGOs) have sprung up by the
> 10s or 100s of thousands in the last three decades. New social
> innovations have been created by citizens in all parts of the world.
> From Bangladesh came the Grameen Bank, from the U.K. came co-ops,
> from Canada came LETS, from India came CLTS, from Denmark came
> Co-Housing, from Switzerland came CSAs. All these and many more social
> innovations are empowering people at the grassroots and promoting local
> community self-reliance.
>
> These social innovations are matched by technologies which make global
> mutual aid among Grassroots Citizen Organization a possibility.
>
> The sum suggests that a Global Democratic World Governance is in the
> making. As economist Herman Daly suggests it will be based on people
> in community and a global community of communities.
>
> For 20 years TRANET has been a "chronicle for the emerging Gaian
> cultures." That is we have searched for and reported on positive
> Alternative and Transformational (A&T) ideas and actions in a
> bimonthly newsletter-directory. (see the TRANET web page
> <http://www.nonviolence.org/tranet/>) Our goal has been to transcend
> the nation-state and link people globally in a TRANsnational NETwork
> for mutual aid.
>
> We are now trying to add more on the use of cyberspace in creating
> global democracy. We'd welcome more information along the lines of
> the recent post.
> Any leads will be appreciated. Thanks,
> and
>
> KEEP UP YOUR GOOD WORKS
>
> ***********************
> Bill Ellis
> TRANET
> PO BOX 137
> Rangeley ME 04970-0137 USA
> (207)864-3784
> URL: http://www.nonviolence.org/tranet/
> ***********************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:02:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Hauben <hauben@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] Tidbit: Usenet text content > 4x WWW text content
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jay Hauben <jay@dorsai.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:24:17 -0400 (EDT)
To: netizens@columbia.edu
With all the media attention given to the WWW, it was helpful to see
the following as part of a message about the ongoing growth of Usenet:
> Usenet accounts for more than four times as much readable
> data as the entire World Wide Web, according to Deja News. About 900
> megabytes, or the equivalent of 900 400-page novels, is posted to
> Internet discussion groups every day.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:07:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Hauben <hauben@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] Netizens List Digests 165 to 167
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:46:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jay Hauben <jay@dorsai.org>
Hi,
As an experiment I have put copies of The Netizens List Digest numbers 165,
166 and 167 at a website:
http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~jrh/netizens/digest/
Let me hear if such an archive would be useful. My concern is that I might
not have enough disk space alotted to me to keep such an archive up as
new digests are issued.
Jay
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] ACN issue "Usenet: the Unsung Hero of the Internet"
Annoucing vol 8 no 1 of the Amateur Computerist
The current issue "Usenet: The Unsung Hero of the Internet"
is now available. The issue contains an interview with Tom
Truscott, one of the creators and pioneers of Usenet, an article
by Greg Woodbury about the early governance structure of Usenet,
an article on the early newsgroups on Usenet "Creating Broadsides
for Our Day", an article on the experience of a user on the early
ARPANET by Keith Lynch, an article on "Community in the Usenet
Newsgroup k12.chat.teacher newsgroup", and an article about
Norbert Wiener, J.C.R. Licklider and the Global Communications
Network. Also the issue contains some reviews of "Netizens: On
the History and Impact of Usenet and the Internet" and an index
of the past 10 years of issues of the Amateur Computerist.
Copies of the issue can be obtained via email by writing to
ronda@panix.com or jrh@umcc.umich.edu
Also the issue is available at
http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~jrh/acn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:01:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ronda Hauben <ronda@panix.com>
Subject: [netz] Draft for comment on creating the Internet and the cutover to tcp/ip
I have been researching the story documented in an ARPANET mailing list
and Usenet newsgroup about the cutover from NCP to tcp/ip and from the
single network of the ARPANET to the split between ARPANET and
MILNET to create the earliest INTERNET.
I have a draft paper that I would appreciate feedback on.
I would be glad to send it to anyone willing to read it and send
me comments in the next few days.
Thanks for any help on this.
Ronda
ronda@panix.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:46:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Hauben <hauben@columbia.edu>
Subject: [netz] INET 98 july 21-24
Approved: 76831
- --fwd-- From: Barbara Bode <bb@bode.org>
Obviously Netizens are ahead of the pack when it comes to Internet savvy.
Nonetheless, theres a conference coming up that I havent
seen mentioned & I think theyd like to know about. I'm
sending you this information in the hopes you will post it.
INET'98 Conference 21-24 July 1998 Geneva
INET 98 is the annual International Networking (INET) conference of the
Internet Society (IS). It offers a weeklong program of bleeding edge info on
how the Internet is changing with leading visionaries highlighting new
trends &
growth.
A major programmatic track focuses on Social, Legal and Regulatory Policies.
thus, this gathering offers a splendid opportunity for activists to ensure
that
our message is heard.
This year INET 98 is being held in Geneva. If three friends go together as a
group, the charge
is $575 for all 5 days.
Check out the agenda & presenters:
<http://www.isoc.org/inet98>http://www.isoc.org/inet98/
It is THE gathering of global netizens.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:45:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jay Hauben <jay@dorsai.org>
Subject: [netz] IANA discussion on DNS and some thoughts-early Internet paper available
From: Ronda Hauben <rh120@columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199806291355.JAA13417@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu>
To: netizens@columbia.edu
Subject: IANA discussion on DNS and some thoughts-early Internet paper available
I received the following notice and thought folks on the Netizens
mailing list might be interested in this.
The IANA notice below is interesting as the issue seems to be becoming
one of who will fund the new organization and isn't that connected
with who controls it.
But also it is interesting that there is a Sept 30, 1998 deadline for
starting the organization that will have control over a key aspect
of the Internet - the root name servers - actually the nerve center
of the Internet and it seems that instead of welcoming discussion
on how to safeguard this all -- it is being given over to some
private sector organization which is to be created to make the
Internet more competitive.
These issues seem to require care and discussion - and it is good
that the call below from IANA says they will be setting up a web
site for discussion - but its hard to understand how under the
pressure of a few months time such important issues can be
decided and whose voice will be heard in the discussion.
The Green Paper published earlier this year and the White Paper
which was issued on June 5 all show that the conception of
the private sector controlling all this is problemmatic to say
the least, as that is how the problems with IANA that have developed
grew up in the first place.
In the research I have been doing on the cutover from NCP to TCP/IP
there was much thought, discussion and planning in working out
how to make the changes and there was lots of discussion and
thought put into the notion of an Internet and how that was
different from a single network -- from for example just an
ARPANET.
It seems that the rush to commercialize the Internet and make
it private is a step back not forward in regard to the vision
of an Internet.
If the commercial sector wants a net - just as the DoD created
MILNET, and split that off from the ARPANET (which was for
science, research and education), so the Commercial forces
wanting a commercial net could create some Commercenet and split
that off, and communicate between nets, but not demand that
the scientific and educational and research uses of the Internet
become subservient to the Commercial interests.
This was the original design for an Internet - the intercommunication
of different nets -- but the white paper and green paper by the
U.S. govt seem to be sending us backwards to a single net to
replace the Internet.
Also I have been working on a paper about the early days of the Internet
and the cutover from NCP to TCP/IP and have a draft if anyone is
interested. It describes the care and work that went into making
the cutover to tcp/ip and then it describes the work to create
the Internet by splitting off the ARPANET and MILNET but making
communication between them possible.
Write me at ronda@panix.com for info on how to get a copy.
Ronda
>Subject: IANA publishes note about Internet names management
>The Internet Assigned Names Authroity (IANA) just published a note providing
>suggestions for a new not-for-profit organisational structure to manage
>Internet names and addresses. This document can be found on:
>http://www.iana.org/discussion.html
>Comments on the document can be sent to:
>mailto:comments@iana.org
- -----------------------
Netizens: On the History and Impact
of Usenet and the Internet
http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/
and in print edition ISBN # 0-8186-7706-6
------------------------------
End of Netizens-Digest V1 #168
******************************
