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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 593
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #593
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Tuesday, 27 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 593
Re: Fun with hex (part 1)
Re: Language
Jetpack
Re: Flame thrower patch now online
Re: Quake Out.
Quake
Re: Fun with hex (part 1)
Bit 4 again...
Re: Jetpack
Re: 3000 spider demonlord wad
Re: Jetpack
Re: Quake
Re: Bit 4 again...
Re: Bit 4 again...
Re: 10000000000 imps, clips, revenants, spiders, etc, etc.
Quake... Daggerfall... Future Shock...
Re: 10000000000 imps, clips, revenants, spiders, etc, etc.
Re: 3000 spider demonlord wad
Re: Language
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: BonesBro@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:19:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Fun with hex (part 1)
In a message dated 96-02-26 19:22:24 EST, you write:
>Go into ID1.PAK with an editor ... search for:
I haven't got anything that will load the nessecary 7+ meg file...what would
I use for that?
>That is really scary ... now someone tell me why it crashes when he
>attacks you.
Probably because this is a DEATHMATCH demo, not single-player...if we were
meant to have monsters, they'd be in there. ;)
------------------------------
From: jelson@l1.conline.com (Jim Elson)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:30:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Language
At 05:10 PM 2/26/96 -0500, doom-editing@nvg.unit.no wrote:
>I don't think the guys at ID would use a lot of ASM. Even though it's faster
>it's not to good to use to much of ASM. Any good programmer would use asm for
>programming in some of the graphics, but not anything else
Why do ya think they brought Abrash on-board? :)
- --H2H
============================================================================
H2HMud NorthAmerican DeathMatch Tourney
Promo/Marketing Coordinator for "The New Technology: Evilution"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jelson@conline.com; WEB page ==> http://www.conline.com/~jelson/index.html
------------------------------
From: Damien.Wellman@Narrows.Kendra.Com (Damien Wellman)
Date: 26 Feb 96 21:35:27 -0800
Subject: Jetpack
Here is a question for all of you: Can one get ONE projectile to do two
separate things with Dehacked? I am trying to get rockets (I may change this
to the BFG projectile instead) to both lift the player using the Archvile
lift AND make the rocket heal the player by 10% to counteract the damage
caused by the Archvile lift. So far, I have made the rocket heal damage OR use
the lift, but not both. Is there a way for it to do both things at once?
- ---
# TLX v4.00 # Too much DOOM: You fire a Rocket into Dark rooms.
- --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
- --
|Fidonet: Damien Wellman 1:262/31
|Internet: Damien.Wellman@narrows.kendra.com
|
| Kendra Communications - FTS <=> Internet Gateway
| When Fido's all ya got, make the best of it.....
| Via-COPLINK 1:343/304 (206)397-6021 Everett WA
------------------------------
From: Damien.Wellman@Narrows.Kendra.Com (Damien Wellman)
Date: 25 Feb 96 20:34:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Flame thrower patch now online
:: From: Yugo Nakai To: Damien Wellman Subj: Re: Flame thrower patch now online ::
YN> had so many going that it was hard to tell.) I noticed that after a
YN> certain point, many of the monsters became totally invisible -- but
YN> could still attack. (Needless to say, I was on God Mode.) I'm not
YN> certain, but it didn't seem that the continuous columns of explosions
YN> hurt the monsters -- but it did seem to hurt me if I turned off God
YN> Mode. (Hard to tell on 30.) Eventually, the game didn't crash... but
YN> even on God Mode, the game killed me. Any thoughts on the
YN> elusive 801 code pointer? (And please... don't fight over it!)
Well, I've tried making a flamethrower patch, myself, using this pointer. (I
didn't steal the idea, I had thought about this even before I heard of the
"other" patch.) The explosions, as created by my patch, don't seem to hurt
anything. Since I use the 801 pointer at the time of the projectile's DEATH,
however, that's probably why. In high ceiling areas, the explosions did not
stop for quite some time. However, it is only in one case, where I had a VERY
high ceilinged room (the floor was zero, ceiling was so high, it was a hazard
to low-flying aircraft :) did the explosions NEVER stop. This
doesn't bother me much as most rooms do not have high ceilings, just as one
does not usually have 1000 bullet clips stacked on top of each other.
- ---
# TLX v4.00 # Die Hard: With Tons of Explosives
- --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
- --
|Fidonet: Damien Wellman 1:262/31
|Internet: Damien.Wellman@narrows.kendra.com
|
| Kendra Communications - FTS <=> Internet Gateway
| When Fido's all ya got, make the best of it.....
| Via-COPLINK 1:343/304 (206)397-6021 Everett WA
------------------------------
From: eric@rmi.net (Eric Duprey)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:18:29 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Quake Out.
As I recall, 'Derek Callaghan, MIT Support' wrote:
> I tested it out in single mode. Seemed to work Ok. Was very dark. Did not find
> a key for gamma correction so had to crank the brightness way up. Cant wait to
> try out the new weapons in deathmatch!
try this from the console.
gamma <gamma level>
this works somewhat the opposite of what you might expect. 0 is totally
white while 10 is quite black, and so on.
gamma 0.8 or so tends to work well.
Eric
- ---
Eric Duprey
(eric@rmii.com)
- ---
------------------------------
From: Dave Worth <trilia@nmia.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:32:32 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Quake
Heya,
You know.. I am hearing only bad things about quake.. I picked up teh
test and it kicks serious @$$.. granted it is not ready to be comercial
but it isn't meant to be so chill.. or don't complain...
Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My heart is human, My blood is boiling, My brain IBM!" -STYX
"Everyone I know goes away in the end!" -NIN
DOOM: Where no one gives a $hit if you scream!
http://www.nmia.com/~trilia/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 23:33:34 EST
Subject: Re: Fun with hex (part 1)
BonesBro@aol.com ,in message <960226211925_232003456@mail06.mail.aol.com>, wrot
e:
> In a message dated 96-02-26 19:22:24 EST, you write:
>
> >Go into ID1.PAK with an editor ... search for:
>
> I haven't got anything that will load the nessecary 7+ meg file...what would
> I use for that?
emacs? I think it can go to 16M without bailing (they reserve 8 bits of a
32 bit integer for type info I think). Later versions of emacs may be able to
handle greater than 16M.
------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 23:42:10 -0500
Subject: Bit 4 again...
>Lee, you are a stubborn, stubborn man...
>Do you actually READ my letters? Hello? If someone modifies the patch,
>any crashes that result are invalid. This SINGLE REPORT of a crash similar
>to yours was due to unwise and negligent tampering. This certainly cannot
>be used to back your position. Anyone can take a perfectly good patch
>and screw it up by changing a single bit, you should know that.
Yeah, right.
The fact that he used soulspheres instead of ammo clips makes no difference-
the rest of the patch was the same, and the bit settings are the real issue
here. Anyway, messing with frames themselves, doing nothing with code
pointers, causes no such crashes as a game freeze- which is exactly what
happens to me.
If I still had a copy of the original letter, I'd ask the writer for more
information. (If you're following this thread, please tell us more!)
[clip]
>No, not likely. ONLY YOUR DOOM CRASHES. The problem is NOT bit 4. You
>treat bit 4 like it's the plague, but it can be tampered with. I have proof
>that it works, and my proof, quite frankly is much more convincing than
>yours, especially from a scientific viewpoint. I have many cases of
>success, you have only ONE of failure. Any logical person would be able to
>conclude that the problem would be local rather than global- meaning the
>problem is in your computer, not the patch.
[clip]
>Wrong. It is completely safe to distribute on a wide basis. I'd say
>I've heard from at least 30 people who have used one of my gettable
>projectile patches (Aliens vs Predator or Insane Weapons, or the ammo
>depot patch) and only ONE person has reported the crash. That's YOU.
>The problem is not with the patch, the problem is with YOUR DOOM.
How many of those 30 people are running Doom I? With you and Greg Lewis as
the only exceptions, I only heard from Doom II users claiming successful
results.
This whole thing goes back to the Fun With DeHackEd text file, which lists a
shootable rockets patch. Someone added in that the patch occasionally locked
up- now we know why. At least as far as projectiles are concerned (although
I'll grant BFG hits are an exception), bit 4 off and bit 2 on don't mix. I
think the same thing might be going on still.
I've worked a lot with your patch, the exact one you sent me, and I've tried
to get it to run. A few alterations were more stable than others (and all
more than the original, which now crashes instantly in Doom 1.9), but all of
them crashed eventually. My theory is that frame redraws might be involved,
as increasing frame 870's frame duration makes the patch more stable. I had a
high degree of stability with recent versions, but nothing that actually
worked forever.
Even after changing my system's hardware, and my version of Doom I, I've had
nothing but grief from trying to get your patch to run. I'll keep trying,
though, because I think it's a noble idea that's worth saving. I'll also try
your most recent alteration, to see if that works.
>I'd appreciate it if you would kindly STOP incorrectly referring to the
patch
>as "unstable" and "unreliable" based on one flawed Doom version's crash.
You
>are not the world, you are not "most people". I'm sure if ANYONE out there
>has had the same crash as you, I would have heard about it. And I
>specifically asked DOOM I players to report success or failure, so your
>claim that "mostly Doom ][" players have reported success is false, as is
>your claim that it doesn't work for "some people" with Doom I. The correct
>statement would be, it does not work for ONE person with Doom I.
>
>Please do me a favor and do not post anything about my patch or my other
>work unless you have actual valid proof of your statements. You slander
>my reputation as a patchmaker and disseminate disinformation. Let my work
>speak for itself for each individual person who uses it. And if anyone else
>ever DOES report the same crash, I guarantee you, you will be the first
>person I inform.
>
>I want no ill feelings, Lee. I respect you and your work, and I understand
>your position. But please understand that on this issue, you are alone in
>your convictions. As a favor, I sincerely ask you to refrain from defaming
>my work unless you have proof outside of your system. If I AM wrong, I
>welcome correction. But if I am right, you are doing both me and any
>potential DeHackErs a great disservice by being blindly defensive and
>unprofessional in your assertions.
I don't know about that- crash reports are vital to spreading accurate
information about DHE. After all, I had someone write me a while back
claiming shootable projectiles were entirely possible, as long as pain chance
is set to 0 (which is their default anyway).
But the point here is this: I'm strongly against releasing a patch I know to
be faulty. in Doom II, there doesn't seem to be a problem with your patch; in
Doom I, there is (and let's face it- the odds of having 1 byte or more of the
EXE file screwed up in such a way as to make my problem totally unique are
astronomical).
I'll continue to research bit 4, and I'll try to find a patch that works the
way you claim it does in Doom I. Nevertheless, I have my doubts. If it does
turn out to be, as I've been saying, system-specific in its effects, then
it's not viable for mass distribution to Doom I users.
Lummox JR
threadbare
------------------------------
From: Joel Huenink <jh32322@ltec.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 23:01:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Jetpack
Damien Wellman wrote:
>
> Here is a question for all of you: Can one get ONE projectile to do two
> separate things with Dehacked? I am trying to get rockets (I may change this
> to the BFG projectile instead) to both lift the player using the Archvile
> lift AND make the rocket heal the player by 10% to counteract the damage
> caused by the Archvile lift. So far, I have made the rocket heal damage OR use
> the lift, but not both. Is there a way for it to do both things at once?
> ---
Try Mike Gummelts insane weapons patch it has a health booster that
heals you while at the same time lifts you into the air.
Joel Huenink
working hard as hell on All_Hell
------------------------------
From: "Drake O'Brien" <a13231@mindlink.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 21:09 PST
Subject: Re: 3000 spider demonlord wad
At 05:27 PM 2/26/96 -0500, Michael Gummelt wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Feb 1996, Drake O'Brien wrote:
>>
>> > So I found it doesn't matter if it's 3000 spider demonlords or 160
>> > bloodsplots, if the player shoots at the clump from within a range of
>> > approx. 1000/1500 units there'll be the crash, but shooting from outside
>> > that approx. range the game'll play normally.
>>
>> Are you sure your shot(s) crossed the clump when you were at the
>> 1500 unit range? Given the distance and the fact the game played
>> normally could mean the shot path didn't cross the clump. I've always
>> found it difficult to shoot anything with consistency from far away.
>>
>It depend on whether he shot bullets or a projectile weapon. Bullets
>don't HAVE a path, the engine decides what to hit with each bullet
>and makes it hit (and spawns a bullet puff or blood splat) instantaneously.
>The bullet doesn't travel like a projectile.
>
>Mike
>
First, to kill the red herring: the crash does NOT depend on what weapon is
fired. The crash (freeze, dump into dos, or jump into noclip mode,
depending on circumstances) occurs identically whatever 'far attack' weapon
is uses. I haven't got the same results with close attack (chainsaw, fist),
tho' the punch of 145 imps knocks you half across the room (iddqd or die).
When the game freezes with a BFG or rocket shot the freeze'll happen at the
frame where the rocket or green plasma first appears. Obviously, all far
attacks include a vector between player and target(s). To spell it out: we
all KNOW that there is a difference between projectile/gunshot attacks, as
having/not-having duration, so IF there was a difference of crash/no-crash
between the cases THEN the difference would likely have signifigance. BUT
tests show that there is no difference, THEREFORE this difference can't be a
factor.
Second, the question: well, I said 1000/1500 approx. because the number
seems to depend on the size and shape of the area as a whole - or at least
it varies according to some obscure factors. In this last test I made the
area as a whole about 11000x11000, with the objects centered. In this case
the player had to be approx. 1000/1500 units or nearer the clump to get the
crash. And I'm quite sure the vector of the shot had to pass over the
clump. I'm not a very good shot so for the far shots I had to successively
bracket the target clump. Likewise, I watched in automap as I fired rockets
during the tests, so I could see the near misses vs. the hits. So yes,
absolutely, the vector of the shot has to include the points where the
things are at.
Wierd, huh?
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 01:07:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Jetpack
Damien,
Funny you should ask this, the exact process you are talking about has
already been done with the plasma gun in Insane Weapons. It's the health
booster which heals you and boosts you. It even has new graphics.
If you just want the boost, no health boost (aside from compensating
for the archvile lift damage), you're out of luck. The first 20
archvile lifts do less damage than any succeeding ones- don't ask me why.
Also, you cannot control the direction of the lift- you will always be
lifted and pushed eastward (once your running momentum us lost.)
Check out Insane Weapons 1. I'll attach it on a private e-mail for you.
Be sure to read the insane.txt file thoroughly first.
Mike Gummelt
On 26 Feb 1996, Damien Wellman wrote:
>
> Here is a question for all of you: Can one get ONE projectile to do two
> separate things with Dehacked? I am trying to get rockets (I may change this
> to the BFG projectile instead) to both lift the player using the Archvile
> lift AND make the rocket heal the player by 10% to counteract the damage
> caused by the Archvile lift. So far, I have made the rocket heal damage OR use
> the lift, but not both. Is there a way for it to do both things at once?
> ---
> # TLX v4.00 # Too much DOOM: You fire a Rocket into Dark rooms.
>
> --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
>
> --
> |Fidonet: Damien Wellman 1:262/31
> |Internet: Damien.Wellman@narrows.kendra.com
> |
> | Kendra Communications - FTS <=> Internet Gateway
> | When Fido's all ya got, make the best of it.....
> | Via-COPLINK 1:343/304 (206)397-6021 Everett WA
>
------------------------------
From: Fairfax Shield McCandlish <fsm3m@fermi.clas.virginia.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 00:25:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Quake
>
> Heya,
>
> You know.. I am hearing only bad things about quake.. I picked up teh
> test and it kicks serious @$$.. granted it is not ready to be comercial
> but it isn't meant to be so chill.. or don't complain...
>
Yeah it does. People tend to forget that graphics and
gameplay are a lot more maluable than the power of the engine,
which is something Quake excells at right now.
-*Avatar*-
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 01:51:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bit 4 again...
Lee,
READ the messages!
That guy not only changes the ammo clip to soul-sphere, but he also
applied it to a totally different patch!!!! One of the so-called
"super weapons" patches, i believe.
On Mon, 26 Feb 1996 LummoxJR@aol.com wrote:
> >any crashes that result are invalid. This SINGLE REPORT of a crash similar
> >to yours was due to unwise and negligent tampering. This certainly cannot
> >be used to back your position. Anyone can take a perfectly good patch
> >and screw it up by changing a single bit, you should know that.
>
> Yeah, right.
> The fact that he used soulspheres instead of ammo clips makes no difference-
> the rest of the patch was the same, and the bit settings are the real issue
Case in point
Mike
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 01:57:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bit 4 again...
Lee,
> How many of those 30 people are running Doom I? With you and Greg Lewis as
> the only exceptions, I only heard from Doom II users claiming successful
> results.
A good few. About 10 I beleive. Not to mention all the AD3 users- AD3 was
made only for Doom I, it uses gettable projectiles, and I have heard from
at least 20 people who have reported no problems with the gettable
projectiles (the medic).
> This whole thing goes back to the Fun With DeHackEd text file, which lists a
> shootable rockets patch. Someone added in that the patch occasionally locked
Totally different thing. Shootable and projectile don't mix (unless the
projectile speed is zero.. even then...) But "can't be hit" and projectile
are OK.
> I'll continue to research bit 4, and I'll try to find a patch that works the
> way you claim it does in Doom I. Nevertheless, I have my doubts. If it does
> turn out to be, as I've been saying, system-specific in its effects, then
> it's not viable for mass distribution to Doom I users.
We'll see. I actually got two reports of crashes, I'm checking them out
to see if there are any similarities inthe system or the method of
execution. I'll keep you informed.
Mike
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 01:59:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 10000000000 imps, clips, revenants, spiders, etc, etc.
Does anyone actually read this thread anymore, or do you just delete
it like I do?
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 02:04:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Quake... Daggerfall... Future Shock...
Since the Quake demo is being discussed briefly, let me offer my
two cents about two other doom-like games out there:
Terminator: Future Shock- Ho-hum. Kind of awkward, no multiplay, not to
impressive.
Daggerfall Demo- Horrible. A big, clunky, faulty, buggy piece of shit.
Bethseda should really be ashamed of their work, especially on the
Daggerfall demo! It's slow, the control is horrible, the sound sucks,
the combat is even worse, and the game froze up and kept chewing at my
hard drive- i had to cold boot. Bethseda needs some new blood. So
take this as a warning: don't bother with the 10MB download and the
50MB+ install space.
If you have a response, please send it private e-mail, don't clutter
up the mailing list.
Mike
------------------------------
From: "Drake O'Brien" <a13231@mindlink.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 23:09 PST
Subject: Re: 10000000000 imps, clips, revenants, spiders, etc, etc.
At 01:59 AM 2/27/96 -0500, Michael Gummelt wrote:
>Does anyone actually read this thread anymore, or do you just delete
>it like I do?
>
This is harrassment. It reveals a lot about you.
------------------------------
From: "Drake O'Brien" <a13231@mindlink.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 23:09 PST
Subject: Re: 3000 spider demonlord wad
On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
> Are you sure your shot(s) crossed the clump when you were at the
> 1500 unit range? Given the distance and the fact the game played
> normally could mean the shot path didn't cross the clump. I've always
> found it difficult to shoot anything with consistency from far away.
In another reply I said: "Likewise, I watched in automap as I fired rockets
during the tests, so I could see the near misses vs. the hits. So yes,
absolutely, the vector of the shot has to include the points where the
things are at."
So from 2000+ units out I could see the shots hit, and there'd be no crash
behaviour, and as I came closer at approx. 1000 units out I'd see a shot
hit, causing the clump of imps or whatever to unravel as they all went into
noclipping (145 imps bursting out of a point). But anyway, I saw a bit of
other strange behaviour. From 1500+ units out and shooting at the clump
with a rocket, when enough hit points connected to kill the top imp it'd
fall over and all remaining imps'd vanish. Likewise with revenants or etc.:
when enough rockets hit to kill the leading monster it dies & the rest
vanish. This won't happen with any other weapon that I tried. So if you
fire a stream of plasma or bfg etc. from 1500+ units out you can watch in
the automap as they connect, killing off the revenants or whatever overlaid
monster is out there in numerical order (I suppose - according to index
#'s). Of course with 145+ overlaid revenants doom doesn't draw them all, so
you don't always see the ones that go down. Yet if you fire a stream of
rockets from 1500+ units away at 500 overlaid revenants, for example, you
don't get the crash behaviour because you're at sufficient distance, but
when the first two hit they kill the leading revenant in the clump and the
whole cluster vanishes leaving a lone body on the ground, the game speeds up
and of course the remaining rockets fly right over. As I said, won't happen
with the BFG or any of the other weapons.
So now there're two distinct 'wierd behaviours'.
------------------------------
From: Aragorn! <d.wykes@dcs.napier.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:50:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Language
On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Jim Elson wrote:
> At 05:10 PM 2/26/96 -0500, doom-editing@nvg.unit.no wrote:
> >I don't think the guys at ID would use a lot of ASM. Even though it's faster
> >it's not to good to use to much of ASM. Any good programmer would use asm for
> >programming in some of the graphics, but not anything else
>
> Why do ya think they brought Abrash on-board? :)
I'm sorry but i really have to disagree with that statement big time.
Look at F1GP2 written in pure assembler by Geoff Crammond.
One person and he's made Papyrus stuff look like 16bit console games.
------------------------------------------------------------------
| Aragorn! ,,, email: bsc4074@dcs.napier.ac.uk |
| (o o) http://www.dcs.napier.ac.uk/~bsc4074 |
------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #593
**********************************
