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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 585
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #585
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Wednesday, 21 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 585
Re: Thing limits- A programmer's perspective...
Re: so try to answer this, gurus
WEEKLY REMINDER : Beginner's Questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:39:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Thing limits- A programmer's perspective...
>What I was trying to say was that the table would over-expand, because like
>you said, the table is probbaly dynamic. It can only expand so much before
>*SOMETHING* happens. id probbals set a really high limit, thinking anyone
>whithin the realms of sanity woudn't bypass it. It isn't wasn't fifth rate
>programming, it is probbaly a combo of laziness and overlooking small
things.
>(Even the best companies miss some things.) Or how about this? After loading
>the level, the table for things is created, and most of the remaining memory
>is used for the table. Here, a dynamic one wouldn't matter, because where
>would it expand? And so on and so forth... BTW, it was just theroy. I
haven't
>been a programmer for 5 or 6 years, andmost theroy is wrong anyway. :)
Again, this theory isn't viable.
With a dynamic list, usually precautions are taken to make sure that memory
can be allocated- if it can't, then something must be done. ID wouldn't have
let that happen either. At any rate, a somewhat fixed limit of around 200
isn't consistent with the theory.
>> 5. Someone needs to define "crash" here. When I say crash, I mean that
>> everything stopped dead (except possibly sounds and music), or that the
video
>> got screwed up and made a horrifying sound on the sound card (it happens),
or
>> some other lock-up. But the rest of you, Mike especially: Are you talking
>> about a Z-malloc failure, another kind of spontaneous exit from the
program,
>> or a lock-up? Please be specific.
>
>Crash: As in the abnormal exiting of a certain program in responce to what
>happened. Can range anywhere from just dumping you to the DOS prompt, to
>freezing up to partially wiping out your HD.
Brilliant. You have managed to totally miss the meaning of my question. The
above answer does not differentiate between terms, only puts them all under
the same roof- as is already the case. So let's try to clarify here, shall
we?
First, an abnormal exit is just that- an abnormal exit. It is NOT a crash,
even though it does interrupt your game. :(
Second, partially wiping out a hard drive shouldn't happen with Doom. I've
had myriad crashes from DHE patches, some nastier than others, and never has
it messed up my drive. Amazing, but true. My guess is that it's because Doom
reads from the hard drive, but probably doesn't write to it much, if at all,
during a game.
Lummox JR
tonight's opening act
------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:38:45 -0500
Subject: Re: so try to answer this, gurus
I thought I'd quote all of the letter, so skip to the bottom if you like...:
>>Clips may not be shootable, but the Doom engine may still have to
>>check every single one of those things to see if they're shootable
>>or not.
>
>Oh oh, ego alert!
>
>Hey, you don't absolutely have to try to answer the question. Your guesses
>aren't covering the ground asked for in the subject header. After all, now
>the question becomes "then why doesn't the game freeze when the player
>passes over the clump of clips, as doom has to check every single one to see
>if it's an obstacle or not". Now, don't answer again until you can come up
>with something a guru might say. We don't want this thread to turn into
>another interminable bore.
>
>Half the reason why I asked the question is because there's been a bit of
>sneering at a certain idea, eg. "This is total rubbish (flame not intended),
>despite a lot of people
>supporting its logic. Doom is an advanced game, programmed to make the
>best..."
>and "The array idea seemed silly to me too, Id would have made a limit to
the
>number of things spawned if they knew it would crash at too many.", whereas
>this clump of clips thing doesn't obviously fit in to the 'Id is God'
>scenario. If the array idea is rubbish and silly because it isn't advanced
>enough for you, how do you reconcile that with "the Doom engine may still
>have to check every single one of those things to see if they're shootable
>or not"? As for the array idea, it at least attempts to explain the
>observable facts.
Actually, Mike was probably entirely correct here. (And yes, my retort to the
array idea was in keeping with logic, since any programmer worth his salt
could tell you he wouldn't write a game that way.)
Typical game logic for something like bullets, which have to be handled
internally to function properly, would be to check all objects in the
player's line of sight, then see which ones are shootable and which aren't
(it's a lot quicker than checking for shootability first, then checking
line-of-sight later). The closest shootable thing gets the bullet. If there
were a whole mess of items in a bullet path, it might freeze the game.
This is another situation where a fixed-length array would actually be
appropriate, but judging by reports is not the case. My guess is that the
game makes up a list of targets, and math calculations get royally screwed up
when about 200 items are in the same place. It's also possible that there is
a fixed-length table involved, and no one bothered to put in a limit because
there is almost no way such a thing as 200 items in the bullet path would
happen- SPAWNING 200 items, however, is different. Game objects are usually
handled in a way that makes tables impractical.
Lummox JR
kind of sick of defending the obvious
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:54:43 -0500
Subject: WEEKLY REMINDER : Beginner's Questions
New subscribers to DOOM-Editing take heed...
===================================================================
This message is being posted at the request of the list's caretakers.
In this you will find: the purpose of this list, how to get answers
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help to get you up to speed and, may save you some grief in the future.
====================================================================
FROM: the list caretaker; *** A REMINDER ***
The DOOM-editing list is not a list aimed at newcomers to
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=====================================================================
This reminder will be posted here weekly, with the subject title:
WEEKLY REMINDER : Beginner's Questions
=====================================================================
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------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #585
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