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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 568
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #568
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Tuesday, 6 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 568
Re: Respawning Barrels alternate method
DHE gettable projectiles: Let's take a vote
Re: Doom ----> Quake
DISproof of gettable projectile
Re: Legality of mixing WADs
Re: Doom ----> Quake
Re: Legality of mixing WADs
Re: Archvile respawning
Re: Holo-marines
Re: Respawning Barrels alternate method
Re: doom-editing-digest V1 #558
Re: Doom ----> Quake
Re: Holo-marines
Re: Legality of mixing WADs
Re: Respawning Barrels alternate method
Re: Duke Nukem 3D decoys in Insane 3...
Re: Holo-marines
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:15:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Respawning Barrels alternate method
Are you sure that only items respawn in DM? I thought monsters would too.
Well, that changes everything, then. Unless, of course, another good method
of respawning barrels is found- I have some good ideas based on the archvile.
Lummox JR
oops
------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:15:40 -0500
Subject: DHE gettable projectiles: Let's take a vote
>I don't know what you're doing wrong. All I can say is that you really
>must have screwed up the patch somehow. I can tell you over and over again
>that it works, but it won't do any good.
That's right- because it doesn't. Trust me, I loaded EXACTLY the patch you
sent me, and it failed even in Doom 1.9. I later messed with sounds and other
tidbits to see if they would work, and even tried running separately from
DHE, but to no avail.
The simple truth is that patches which turn off bit 4 are inherently
unstable, and thus can't be used generally. On some systems, maybe even most
systems, some such patches may work- apparently it does for you. But if it's
not working for me, then it's not working for a bunch of other people,
either- not necessarily a lot or the majority of them, but there have to be
others who've noticed this.
If you want final proof, look through the "Fun With DeHackEd" file that comes
with DHE. Try patches like shootable projectiles and such, and see if those
work. There are already notes in the file that say they are prone to lockups.
In fact, when I built my page, I intentionally left out similar unstable
patches, and noted frequently that patches turning off bit 4 don't work.
I agree with the vote idea, though, although I suggest that you write to both
of us. Let's take a census. Try Mike's gettable projectiles patch, and use it
liberally. Get a lot of projectiles thrown at you, and maybe get some of them
(if you have time!). Then write both of us and tell us whether it works or
not.
Please include specific information about what version of Doom or Doom II
you're using, how much memory is available (or how much Doom allocates during
startup), and how fast your computer is. I'm trying to figure out to what
extent this is system-related.
My bet: At least 20% of users (probably more- I'm more inclined to believe
60-75%) will have a problem.
Oh, and I've had no luck recreating my previous semi-success. I wish I'd
written it down...
Lummox JR
it still doesn't work
------------------------------
From: Damien.Wellman@Narrows.Kendra.Com (Damien Wellman)
Date: 02 Feb 96 21:28:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Doom ----> Quake
:: From: Eskinews!flash.globalnews.com!jschu To: Damien Wellman Subj: Re: Doom ----> Quake ::
> This may have been asked before, and it may be to soon, but has anyone
thought
of > converting all of the doom levels, and possibly the weapons to quake, when
Es> wuake > is released i am thinking of having a go, anyone want to join me, if so
Es> reply, > and when quake is released we will talk.
Es> basing levels on id's copyrighted material (graphics/sounds/levels)
Es> is considered a copyright violation. likewise, you're not permitted to
Es> distribute a doom level converted to hexen e.g.
Actually, I've seen the _shareware_ version of Doom I converted to Doom ][.
As long as you stick with the shareware version (which is free anyway),
I don't think there whould be a problem with it.
- ---
# TLX v4.00 # KENNEDY COMPOUND -KEEP OUT- TRESPASSERS MAY BE VIOLATED!
- --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.21 [NR]
- --
|Fidonet: Damien Wellman 1:262/31
|Internet: Damien.Wellman@narrows.kendra.com
|
| Kendra Communications - FTS <=> Internet Gateway
| When Fido's all ya got, make the best of it.....
| Via-COPLINK 1:343/304 (206)397-6021 Everett WA
------------------------------
From: Damien.Wellman@Narrows.Kendra.Com (Damien Wellman)
Date: 02 Feb 96 21:30:57 -0800
Subject: DISproof of gettable projectile
:: From: Eskinews!aol.com!lummoxjr To: Damien Wellman Subj: DISproof of gettable projectile ::
Es> Sorry, Mike, but I've downloaded and installed Doom 1.9 over the old
Es> 1.666. And guess what.... Your patch doesn't work. If anything, the new
Es> version of Doom locks up SOONER than the old one did.
Es> All patches that turn off bit 4 have a tendency, if not a certainty,
Es> to lock up. The specific effects may vary from system to system, but
Es> there is indeed a reason that I'm always telling people not to mess
Es> with it. A lot of patches would be possible if not for this bit.
Es> I tried your patch in and out of DeHackEd. Locked up every time. By
Es> turning bit 4 back on, however, it had no adverse effects- but I
Es> couldn't pick up the projectiles that were sitting there, either.
Es> I'm pretty sure I found another way to do it once, one that didn't
Es> lock up the system, so I'll try to find it. My best clue is that it
Es> might have something to do with bit 2. Work begins.
Lummox, I thnk you might have a problem with your copy of Doom. I used Mike's
patch on my copy (Doom ][ v1.9) and I *WAS* able to pick up the projectile,
and the game did *NOT* lock up.
... "Careful; these guys are trained cable-installers!" -- Tom Servo
- ---
* TLX v4.00 *
- --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.21 [NR]
- --
|Fidonet: Damien Wellman 1:262/31
|Internet: Damien.Wellman@narrows.kendra.com
|
| Kendra Communications - FTS <=> Internet Gateway
| When Fido's all ya got, make the best of it.....
| Via-COPLINK 1:343/304 (206)397-6021 Everett WA
------------------------------
From: "Phil Brown" <P.D.Brown@admin.warwick.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:21:09 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Legality of mixing WADs
:>> basing levels on id's copyrighted material (graphics/sounds/levels) is
:>> considered a copyright violation. likewise, you're not permitted to
:>> distribute a doom level converted to hexen e.g.
:>
:>One could distribute a program which would extract the material from a
:>copy of Doom on the same machine and construct a Quake WAD from that,
:>requiring users to own both Doom and Quake...
This got me thinking about what is/is't allowed I would assume that
converting Doom I levels to Doom II (and vice-versa) is okay as long
as you own both games - but what about:
- - I have a front end (D!) that came on a CD with 1000s of levels,
which will convert extra levels created for either Doom to any single
one that you own. This could be used to convert one to the other,
and distribute them, which is obviously wrong - but is the converter
allowed in the instance that a modified Doom I level (amd some I've
seen aren't all that "modifed") can be played in Doom II ?
- - Creating new monsters in Doom I that are "similar" to the new ones
in Doom II (not seen much of this, but how many weapons patches are
there?) I would assume there's no law against ripping off ideas, but
is against ripping off code.
- - If modified Doom I levels _are_ illegal because they can be played
in Doom II, did they only become illegal when Doom II was released?
- - What's really the difference between re-creating the other game's level
by creating a new WAD with all the walls, monsters and items in the
same places, and converting an existing level?
- - If it were possible to patch Duke3D to look just like Doom, and
someone did - I'm sure iD wouldn't be pleased - but who would they
take it up with, the person who created the patch, the person who
made the tools to do it, or Apogee for allowing it to be done?
What I'm really wondering is: how far can we go - is creating levels
from scratch and only placing existing monsters and items in them the
only legal option? Are weapons patches, different graphics, new
monsters and special effects all frowned on by iD? If so it would be
a shame - more creative than some of the best levels I have really
enjoyed stalking the original levels with monsters that move through
walls and semi-automatic shotguns, and the recent insane patch
mentioned here was great, I_loved_ the shield idea, and the health
that made you jump and the crucifix were great too.
- --
Phil Brown miapdb@admin.warwick.ac.uk fil@db80.demon.co.uk
http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~miapd/home.htm
Senior PC Support, Management Information Services,
University of Warwick, UK
------------------------------
From: jschuur@flash.globalnews.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:51:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Doom ----> Quake
On 2 Feb 1996, Damien Wellman wrote:
> Actually, I've seen the _shareware_ version of Doom I converted to Doom ][.
> As long as you stick with the shareware version (which is free anyway),
> I don't think there whould be a problem with it.
sorry. according to id redistribution of addons based on any of their
original works is prohibited. that includes the sw version.
</j>
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 11:52:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Legality of mixing WADs
At 9:21 am 5/2/96, Phil Brown wrote:
>
>This got me thinking about what is/is't allowed I would assume that
>converting Doom I levels to Doom II (and vice-versa) is okay as long
>as you own both games - but what about:
>- I have a front end (D!) that came on a CD with 1000s of levels,
>which will convert extra levels created for either Doom to any single
>one that you own. This could be used to convert one to the other,
>and distribute them, which is obviously wrong - but is the converter
>allowed in the instance that a modified Doom I level (amd some I've
>seen aren't all that "modifed") can be played in Doom II ?
The issues here are many and complex. If the converter is ripping stuff
from one game and stuffing it into a new WAD to run on another, then you're
on very dodgy ground. (id would say you're in the swamp of copyright
violation: as long as you only do this on your own machine, though, and
don't distribute the results, no-one will know or care.) If, on the other
hand, what gets converted is the compatible contents of the WAD, then
legally, things get blurred. If all the converter does is change, say, wall
texture names from DOOM I to DOOM II names, and makes appropriate Thing
substitutions (like DM2CONV will let you do) then the only violation of
copyright is the 'theft' of the original layout design. Whether that
becomes a problem or not is down to the owner of that copyright.
If the levels were id's then you can be damned certain that they are likely
to regard your actions as violation of copyright. After all, if you
converted DOOM.WAD to run under DOOM II you'd be potentially depriving id
of sales of DOOM, wouldn't you?
If, on the other hand, you're converting third-party WADs, then check in
the standard WAD description file: it will tell you whether the WAd can be
used as the basis for other WADs or not. If it says not, then you're
violating the original designer's rights by doing it. Such behaviour is, at
best, anti-social, and is probably illegal, although I doubt if anyone
would bother to contest it in the courts! If in doubt, ask the original
designer.
> I would assume there's no law against ripping off ideas, but
>is against ripping off code.
This is the kind of thinking that makes attorneys rich! ;)
>- If modified Doom I levels _are_ illegal because they can be played
>in Doom II, did they only become illegal when Doom II was released?
No: the act of creating them is an offense.
>- What's really the difference between re-creating the other game's level
>by creating a new WAD with all the walls, monsters and items in the
>same places, and converting an existing level?
None: this is just different ways of copying the same thing. You cannot
avoid copyright laws just by changing your copying methodology.
>- If it were possible to patch Duke3D to look just like Doom, and
>someone did - I'm sure iD wouldn't be pleased - but who would they
>take it up with, the person who created the patch, the person who
>made the tools to do it, or Apogee for allowing it to be done?
The person who created it has committed the offense. The creator of a tool
cannot be held responsible for the way it is used. Canon wouldn't be deemed
responsible if I started passing off photocopied dollar bills as cash,
would they?
>
>What I'm really wondering is: how far can we go - is creating levels
>from scratch and only placing existing monsters and items in them the
>only legal option? Are weapons patches, different graphics, new
>monsters and special effects all frowned on by iD?
According to id's license.doc, you can create new WAD files--this can
include new graphics patches etc. Strictly speaking, hacking the exe is
illegal, and id have said they don't like it, but they are (currently)
turning a blind eye to it. My guess is that there is little they can do to
defend their rights on this. An offense is really only committed at the
point that the exe is hacked . This means that releasing dehacked patches
is perfectly legal--after all, there's virtually nothing in them, and they
don't _on their own_ violate anyone's rights in anything. The application
of those patches is done "in the privacy of your own machine": it is
difficult (read "impossible") for id to know you've applied the patch, so
long as you don't distribute the results.
Of course, if id really cared about this, they'd have let Greg know by now. ;)
Bottom line? Be considerate of others: think who might get upset by your
actions and tell them what you plan. If you daren't do this, then you
probably already know that what you plan will upset them. If you upset
people they will cause you trouble. Simple, no? ;)
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: "Phil Brown" <P.D.Brown@admin.warwick.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:54:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Archvile respawning
:> The archvile can respawn ANYTHING which
:>has a Respawn Frame. The spiderdemon, cyberdemon, archvile, etc etc do
:>not have respawn frames, and thus can't be brought back to life (by
:>default). I know I have made Arch's resurrect each other, and I think I
:>did it for cyber's too, without touching the hit points at all. I just
:>gave them a Respawn Frame.
:>
Will the archvile respawn already dead monsters which are placed in a
room as dead monster objects? I'd like to have the player go through
a room (which they later have to come back to) full of dead monsters,
only to find that an archvile has been released after they exit to
return to find a room full of living ones. Can I put dead monsters
in to be respawned, or do I have to put live ones in, then kill them
(with a crushing ceiling or something) before the player get there?
Thanks for any info,
Phil
- --
Phil Brown miapdb@admin.warwick.ac.uk fil@db80.demon.co.uk
http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~miapd/home.htm
Senior PC Support, Management Information Services,
University of Warwick, UK
------------------------------
From: "Phil Brown" <P.D.Brown@admin.warwick.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:03:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Holo-marines
:>This is a really cool idea! I fear I may start up the old fake marine
:>argument here, but here it goes.. why not make the marine MOVE? Even MORE
:>surprising.
I prefer the idea of a stationary marine, with a moving one you'd have all
the problems of making it look like a player was controlling it,
which might fool monsters, but not other deathmatchers. Much better
IMHO, is to have a static one, then players could easily _pretend_ to
be a fake one.
Just a thought,
Phil
- --
Phil Brown miapdb@admin.warwick.ac.uk fil@db80.demon.co.uk
http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~miapd/home.htm
Senior PC Support, Management Information Services,
University of Warwick, UK
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:15:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Respawning Barrels alternate method
On Sun, 4 Feb 1996 LummoxJR@aol.com wrote:
> Are you sure that only items respawn in DM? I thought monsters would too.
> Well, that changes everything, then. Unless, of course, another good method
> of respawning barrels is found- I have some good ideas based on the archvile.
>
> Lummox JR
> oops
>
Well, monsters respawn if you turn on respawning with the "-respawn" tag,
but otherwise, no. Anyway, the items thing works fine, but you just
have to rename to barrel sprites (barrel and barrel explosion) to a
gettable object like the chainsaw. Although, the archvile respawn
should prove an interesting alternative as well (and no WinTex work
required, I'd bet).
Mike
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:32:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: doom-editing-digest V1 #558
On Thu, 25 Jan 1996, Greg Lewis wrote:
> Um, this is wrong. (I think.) The archvile can respawn ANYTHING which
> has a Respawn Frame. The spiderdemon, cyberdemon, archvile, etc etc do
> not have respawn frames, and thus can't be brought back to life (by
> default). I know I have made Arch's resurrect each other, and I think I
> did it for cyber's too, without touching the hit points at all. I just
> gave them a Respawn Frame.
>
> Greg
Whoops! Greg is absolutely right here! I just tested it out, and boy was
I wrong... I had heard all that garbage about archviles respawning only
things with less HP on the usenet doom.editing newsgroup a long time
ago, I just accepted it. That's what I get for taking someone else's
word and not trying it out myself! Thanks for the correction, Greg!
Mike
------------------------------
From: Denis <d.moeller@rendsburg.netsurf.de>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:22:34 +0100
Subject: Re: Doom ----> Quake
Hi!
At 21:28 02.02.1996 -0800, you wrote:
> Actually, I've seen the _shareware_ version of Doom I converted to Doom ][.
>As long as you stick with the shareware version (which is free anyway),
>I don't think there whould be a problem with it.
SW or not, I don't think it's legal to change it. SW is not a 'non-copy-
righted' software. You are not allowed to change any software that has
a copyright. That's what the right is for. Even software that is made
public as so called Freeware is protected by the rights of the author.
If someone is releasing software for free, so called Public Domain
software, you can use it, change it or do whatever you want with it.
Shareware is not Public Domain.
Regarding tools that actually CHANGE other programs, such as dehacked or
something; it's okay to program such a thing and distribute it, but I
think it's definitely illegal to use this program with the intention to
make an altered version of the original and with the intention to re-
distribute it (for free or not). Well, dehacked creates patch-files and
I think that's the reason why nobody 'can' sue them. Regardless the fact
that nobody wants to sue them.
Nobody can sue the author of Dehacked for creating this utility, because
the author is in no way liable for the results of the use of Dehacked.
(Well, he should make that clear in a textfile, I'm sure he did.)
Making WADs is okay, id even wants third party people to create WADs,
but using stuff from id's WADs is prohibited. No matter what you want
to do with the stuff.
cya
Denis
[] Denis Moeller, author of NWT v1.3 and TiC's WAD Reviews. []
[]------------ E-Mail: d.moeller@rendsburg.netsurf.de ------------[]
[] For Doom, Hexen, Quake-Links, Good WADs List & Memento Mori(!) []
[] check this out: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/2299/ []
------------------------------
From: Michael Roy <roym@cadvision.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 13:08:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Holo-marines
Phil Brown wrote:
> I prefer the idea of a stationary marine, with a moving one you'd have all
> the problems of making it look like a player was controlling it,
> which might fool monsters, but not other deathmatchers. Much better
> IMHO, is to have a static one, then players could easily _pretend_ to
> be a fake one.
that sounds like one killer idea! talk about making the death matchers of
the world paranoid!!!
cool,cool,cool.
- --
Michael Roy
-Mother Goose to some-
Internet: roym@cadvision.com
FIDOnet: 1:134/65
------------------------------
From: Mackey McCandlish <fsm3m@virginia.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:11:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Legality of mixing WADs
>
>Of course, if id really cared about this, they'd have let Greg know by now. ;)
I believe Shawn was a bit unhappy with him..
But I suppose with Quake, exe hacking will no longer be neccesary and
the dehacked era will be behind us.
-*Avatar*-
------------------------------
From: Matthew Miller <rmiller@infinet.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:50:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Respawning Barrels alternate method
On Sun, 4 Feb 1996 LummoxJR@AOL.COM wrote:
> Are you sure that only items respawn in DM? I thought monsters would too.
> Well, that changes everything, then. Unless, of course, another good method
> of respawning barrels is found- I have some good ideas based on the archvile.
There seems to be some confusion about this--let me try to clarify:
- --MONSTERS RESPAWN when you use the -respawn parameter or play at
NIGHTMARE! difficulty.
- --PICK-UPPABLE THINGS RESPAWN when you play a deathmatch game and use the
-altdeath parameter. (And even then, not all of them--anyone remember
which ones, and why?)
- --Then there is the archvile, which can bring dead monsters back to life--
if, as someone (Gummelt, I think) mentioned, that monster has a so-called
`respawn frame' (`resurrection frame' would be more accurate, since it has
nothing to do with respawning and everything to do with the archvile's
resurrections.)
Everything clear now? (I don't really think anyone on this list is
stupid, I'm just trying to be as plain as possible.)
Anyways, since you aren't actually picking up barrels (you are,
basically, killing them), that second method is ruled out (unless you're
the trickiest hacker in the universe).
Now, for the first method...I
dunno. The monsters that blow up and disappear when they die (lost soul
and pain elemental) don't get respawned, so it may or may not be
workable, as the barrels themselves also blow up and disappear. The
third method may or may not be workable (you'd have to set a resurrection
frame, as what's-his-name said). Lemme know if they work. I think in
either case, you'd have to add a final, invisible `still body' frame for
the barrel that loops back on itself, or whatever the `still body' frames
of monsters do.
Oh yeah, don't try making the death frames explode, pause, then
come back into the swing of things. If the death frames cycle back on
the regular frames, the darn thing goes indestructible.
Matthew Miller -- rmiller@infinet.com
------------------------------
From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 17:00:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Duke Nukem 3D decoys in Insane 3...
to anyone interested: here is the preliminary format of the DUKE3D.GRP file.
The file STARTS with the index (unlike a .WAD, which ends with it).
Each index entry is 16 bytes. The first 12 is the entry name, in a
stadard DOS filename 8.3 format. The second 4 bytes is the size of
the entry. It was therefore trivial to write a program to explode
each entry out into a file having the same name as its entry. The
very first entry has the id 'KenSilverman', and the size field
represents the number of index entries (not including this one).
There are 182 entries in the shareware GRP.
The 3 .CON files also exist in the .GRP, which leads me to believe
that you can substitute for ANY entry in the .GRP by simply copying
the appropriate named file into the DUKE directory. (No command line
params needed for playing levels: just copy a file named E1L1 into the
duke directory).
Songs entries are in .MID format
Sounds entries are in .VOC format.
Levels entries are named ExLy, x=episode y=level.
format of level data??
format of graphics??
If there is a more appropriate place to discuss this data, let me know.
I would REALLY like to find the format of the graphics data ASAP: I'm guessing
it's the same format as ROTT (wild guess). Anyone know what format this data
was in?
matt tag
_ _ ---------------------------------------------------------------
|_|_| PC-OHIO PCBoard OIS pcohio.com HST 16.8: 216-381-3320
|_|_| The Best BBS in America Cleveland, OH V34+ 33.6: 216-691-3030
---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Michael Adams <runner@jovanet.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:31:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Holo-marines
Actually, they have achieved this effect in Hexen and Heretic... In
Hexen, there is one level where there is a warrior you must kill that
moves very quickly and has pretty good AI... I had a hard time figuring
out that it was NOT my teammate...
On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Michael Roy wrote:
> Phil Brown wrote:
> > I prefer the idea of a stationary marine, with a moving one you'd have all
> > the problems of making it look like a player was controlling it,
> > which might fool monsters, but not other deathmatchers. Much better
> > IMHO, is to have a static one, then players could easily _pretend_ to
> > be a fake one.
>
> that sounds like one killer idea! talk about making the death matchers of
> the world paranoid!!!
>
> cool,cool,cool.
>
> --
> Michael Roy
> -Mother Goose to some-
> Internet: roym@cadvision.com
> FIDOnet: 1:134/65
>
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #568
**********************************
