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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 578
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #578
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Friday, 16 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 578
Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Creating Monsters
Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
[none]
things & z-malloc
Re: things & z-malloc
Re: Creating Monsters
Re: Sector Tags 666 and 667
level editor
Re: Creating Monsters
Re: things & z-malloc
Re: Windows95 Editing
Re: win95 editors
Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Doom-Editors-Digest on WWW http://bruckner.its.utas.edu.au/doom-digest/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:25:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Andrew,
> I could be missing something but i made a square level with a couple
> hundred boxes of rockets just and 2 launchers. Doom wouldnt render
> most of them if you looked down the length of the level they'd start
> to blink and or disapear. The game never crashed just a lot of
> blinking. So id have to say it was probably the patch, since a
> vanilla doom can handle it. As i said maybe im missing some thing.
>
> andy
This brings up an interesting point. Perhaps if the level starts out with
200+ levels it's okay, but if you try to spawn a new one after you already
have 200...? Maybe it will only crash if you try to spawn a new thing
after there are 200. I know I made a level in Aliens Doom 3 with 50 or so
Alien Eggs in a room, and as soon as you entered, they all woke up and
spawned one facehugger each. Surprisingly, when i entered the room and
all the facehuggers began to be spawned- the game crashed! Apparently I had
either reached the limit of things that can be spawned on one level or I had
reached the limit of things that can be spawned at apporximately the same
time. I suspect it was a combination of both. As to your statement about
no problems with a "vanilla" copy of Doom, I'll reiterate my previous
rebuttal to this claim. Play Doom ][ map 30 in god mode long enough so that
there are about 200 monsters running around- crash. No mods, but it will
happen. Of course, you have to make it happen, but with the ammo depot
you have to try pretty hard to make it crash. And I have previously
suggested the completely successful modification to the patch that would
make the crash described impossible- make the duration of the dropped
ammo clip something like 30 or 50 (long enough to pick it up). That way
200 ammo clips could never accumulate. Again, I am not trying to be
defensive here (I'm sure it sounds like it), I just would like potential
hackers to have all the facts straight.
Mike Gummelt
------------------------------
From: ej71966@goodnet.com (Wesley Fredrick)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:36:42 -0700
Subject: Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
>> That had been my previous experience as well. But it seems that Doom
>> does INDEED have a limit to the number of things it can support (this only
>> makes since from a programming point of view). The limit seems to be
>> around 200. I had made a flamethrower in Aliens Doom 3 that left real
>> all in the same exact position! In short, I don't think the crash is due
>> to an instability in the ammo depot patch, but due to the limitations of the
>> Doom engine itself.
>I could be missing something but i made a square level with a couple
>hundred boxes of rockets just and 2 launchers. Doom wouldnt render
>most of them if you looked down the length of the level they'd start
>to blink and or disapear. The game never crashed just a lot of
>blinking. So id have to say it was probably the patch, since a
>vanilla doom can handle it. As i said maybe im missing some thing.
>andy
I believe I'm the one who first brought up a limit in the amount of things
existing. It seems to me like what is happening when Doom locks up in this
way is that the thing array or table grows in size until the thing data
engulfs and overwrites the code segment. Each time another thing is spawned,
another item is added to the array, and for speed's sake the size is not
checked. So when the processor tries to execute thing data, all hell breaks
loose. Do I have it?
Wes
------------------------------
From: Steven Towle <stevet3@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 06:25:42 -0500
Subject: Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Michael Gummelt wrote:
> This brings up an interesting point. Perhaps if the level starts out with
> 200+ levels it's okay, but if you try to spawn a new one after you already
> have 200...? Maybe it will only crash if you try to spawn a new thing
> after there are 200. I know I made a level in Aliens Doom 3 with 50 or so[snip]
I've seen a level where, at the beginning, there is something like 500+
monsters, with some Pain Elementals in there. Never crashed on me (even
thought the fps was about 1-2). Mabye I was just seing things. I have no
idea what the limit things that spawn at the same time, however.
- -Steve
| Steve Towle, D1M, D1SG |
| stevet3@ix.netcom.com (Dipstick on iFrag) |
| Steve's Gaming HQ: http://www.geopages.com/TimesSquare/3206 |
| Interactive sigs: "Insert quote here" |
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:54:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
Steve,
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Steven Towle wrote:
> Michael Gummelt wrote:
> > This brings up an interesting point. Perhaps if the level starts out with
> > 200+ levels it's okay, but if you try to spawn a new one after you already
> > have 200...? Maybe it will only crash if you try to spawn a new thing
> > after there are 200. I know I made a level in Aliens Doom 3 with 50 or so[snip]
> I've seen a level where, at the beginning, there is something like 500+
> monsters, with some Pain Elementals in there. Never crashed on me (even
> thought the fps was about 1-2). Mabye I was just seing things. I have no
> idea what the limit things that spawn at the same time, however.
You're talkingabout Punisher, right? I'll have to check that out...
Mike
------------------------------
From: Rudy XIII <rudolphw@odysseus.gonzaga.pvt.k12.dc.us>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:46:04 +1130
Subject: Creating Monsters
To all,
I am part of a small doom editing club called SLaKSoFT and we have
decided to create a new wad based on the Punisher comic book from marvel
comics. I have two questions that I need answered before we begin.....
1. I was planning to draw the thugs in 3d studio and touching them
up on photoshop and Paint Shop Pro, but I had the idea of scanning real
images of real people as the characters for sprites. First, we would take
photos of a person in the right position and then scan that image into
photoshop for some editing. Then, voila, a new sprite!! My question is,
would this work?? I have noticed that some images put into a wad do not come
out as planned in the game. This is understandable, so I would have to make
up for it. But would the image be clear over all??
2. Does anyone think Marvel would have any problems with this??( I
have a my own story for the game...)
Thanks for your time,
Rudy
------------------------------
From: jh32322@ltec.net (Joel Huenink)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:55:52 -0600
Subject: Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
>Steve,
>
>On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Steven Towle wrote:
>> Michael Gummelt wrote:
>> > This brings up an interesting point. Perhaps if the level starts out with
>> > 200+ levels it's okay, but if you try to spawn a new one after you already
>> > have 200...? Maybe it will only crash if you try to spawn a new thing
>> > after there are 200. I know I made a level in Aliens Doom 3 with 50 or
so[snip]
>> I've seen a level where, at the beginning, there is something like 500+
>> monsters, with some Pain Elementals in there. Never crashed on me (even
>> thought the fps was about 1-2). Mabye I was just seing things. I have no
>> idea what the limit things that spawn at the same time, however.
>You're talkingabout Punisher, right? I'll have to check that out...
>
>Mike
>
If it's the punisher you are talking about, I have played that level many
times (and kicked it's butt skill level 4 in 19 minutes) and after there are
so many monsters awake and active the pain elementals quit spitting lost
souls at you. they still attack but nothing comes out so I am convinced doom
must have some type of counting system, at least with the elementals. Maybe
you should make your ammo depo out of the pain elemental, then it won't
crash it will just stop spitting ammo or whatever. I haven't followed
everything on this but this is what we are talking about, right?
Joel Huenink
jh32322@ltec.net
------------------------------
From: Rudy XIII <rudolphw@odysseus.gonzaga.pvt.k12.dc.us>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:55:21 +1130
Subject: [none]
To: Edward W. Jay From: Rudy
>>Are there currently any editors made specifically for Windows '95? Most of
>>the ones I see are for Dos and require me to enter the Dos-Prompt from
>>Windows '95.
I don't know personally. WinDEU only covers windows 3.1 or Windows NT
or 32. WinTEX only covers 3.1. Most of the people who create these
utilities are running on prett basic machines. You probably won't find an
editor for Windows 95 for a while. I do know that an editor for Quake,
which covers graphics and level editing) will come out for windows 95.
Well....at least that's what the screen shot looks like.
-Rudy from SLaKSoFT
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (Drake O'Brien)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 11:09:41 -0800
Subject: things & z-malloc
re. the 'disproof of gettable..' thread, if I warp to map30 and iddqd
eventually I'll crash with z-malloc. The number of creatures spawned at
crash time is relatively few. This is the same kind of crash as any
z-malloc crash from too much level infos and happens to me a bit sooner
than to someone with more than 4MB RAM.
I made a 2 sector level with a player 1 start and 5000 clips (copy and
paste...). The level played but was slow. With 10000 clips I z-malloced
out again. So it's narrowed down to between 5 and 10 K of clips ;)
- --
Drake O'Brien
a13231@mindlink.bc.ca
------------------------------
From: Steven Towle <stevet3@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:05:34 -0500
Subject: Re: things & z-malloc
Drake O'Brien wrote:
>
> re. the 'disproof of gettable..' thread, if I warp to map30 and iddqd
> eventually I'll crash with z-malloc. The number of creatures spawned at
> crash time is relatively few. This is the same kind of crash as any
> z-malloc crash from too much level infos and happens to me a bit sooner
> than to someone with more than 4MB RAM.
Well, I think that there is an item table created at startup, and then there
are x number of empty spaces for things that spawn onto the map (changes from
alive to dead, and dead to alive too?) If the list grows too big, it would
do a Win95 (ie: overwrite the program code in memory), and it crashes.
> I made a 2 sector level with a player 1 start and 5000 clips (copy and
> paste...). The level played but was slow. With 10000 clips I z-malloced
> out again. So it's narrowed down to between 5 and 10 K of clips ;)
I was going to ask if the person who let the imp on level 1 spawn 200 ammo boxes
before bombing out if he had 4MB of memory, or more. Still, 100 + 200 does not
equal 7500. :) So until someone proves me wrong, I'm right. ;)
(Putting on flame-reterardant coat as I type...)
- -Steve
| Steve Towle, D1M, D1SG |
| stevet3@ix.netcom.com (Dipstick on iFrag) |
| Steve's Gaming HQ: http://www.geopages.com/TimesSquare/3206 |
| Interactive sigs: "Insert quote here" |
------------------------------
From: "Brian K. Martin" <brian@phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:04:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Creating Monsters
>
> 1. I was planning to draw the thugs in 3d studio and touching them
> up on photoshop and Paint Shop Pro, but I had the idea of scanning real
> images of real people as the characters for sprites. First, we would take
> photos of a person in the right position and then scan that image into
> photoshop for some editing. Then, voila, a new sprite!! My question is,
> would this work?? I have noticed that some images put into a wad do not come
> out as planned in the game. This is understandable, so I would have to make
> up for it. But would the image be clear over all??
As I said earlier, I have done this (but I used video instead which is
prolly better, since you can really get the death sequences and firing
sequences to look smooth). You have to do some touch up since your
colors prolly don't exactly match the palette. You also have to increase
the width of the picture. As for clearness, it is not very good. When
you make a person's head 5 pixels wide, there is not much detail. It just
looks like a white blob. So you have to wear sun glasses or something
to distinguish the eyes and stuff. Or jus ttouch things up afterwards.
>
> 2. Does anyone think Marvel would have any problems with this??( I
> have a my own story for the game...)
>
I bet someone will say yes, but I also bet you won't get in trouble
if they did have a problem with this. :)
zwoof
------------------------------
From: LoCo LikE a PoLLo! <loco@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:24:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Sector Tags 666 and 667
Hi. I'm not sure, but I think that I read somewhere the tag 666 only
can be used with Revenants. I didn't read anything about 667 though. Did
you use Revenants? If you didn't, then I try it. Did you remember to make
the sector tags and then make the line tags the same? Anyway, later.
On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, John Miezitis wrote:
> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:51:37 +1100
> From: John Miezitis <John.Miezitis@its.utas.edu.au>
> To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
> Subject: Sector Tags 666 and 667
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am trying to design a Doom II level which uses some of the features from
> Doom II MAP07 (using WinDEU 5.24). The ID level has some sectors (with tag
> 666) which will lower when you have terminated all monsters in one area.
> You then are met with a swarm of spiders and after swatting all of them
> another sector (with tag 667) raises.
>
> I tried using the tags 666 and 667 but the sector would not move I was able
> to use a switch to lower the sector so I guess the sector is Ok.
>
> I have looked in the handbook (1.2), the doom spec (1.6), the unofficial
> doom spec and some other documents but could not find any discussion on
> these special sector tags.
>
> Can anybody suggest what I might be doing wrong or better can point me to
> some documentation re special sector tags and how they work.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Cheers.
> -JohnM
>
> John B Miezitis, University of Tasmania, Information Technology Services.
> Intl Ph: +61 02 207419, Email: John.Miezitis@its.utas.edu.au
> Belgium man Belgium!!! - Z. Beeblebrox
>
>
------------------------------
From: Cecil Buckhannon <75314.3417@compuserve.com>
Date: 15 Feb 96 16:35:51 EST
Subject: level editor
If you are speaking of the snapshot of the editor with all of the textures and
the mapping grid, etc. That looks like it is on a NeXT station which runs unix.
If that isn't the picture then sorry I haven't seen it :]
See ya,
Cecil B.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/c_buckhannon
------------------------------
From: LoCo LikE a PoLLo! <loco@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:01:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Creating Monsters
Hi....
> 1. I was planning to draw the thugs in 3d studio and touching them
> up on photoshop and Paint Shop Pro, but I had the idea of scanning real
> images of real people as the characters for sprites. First, we would take
> photos of a person in the right position and then scan that image into
> photoshop for some editing. Then, voila, a new sprite!! My question is,
> would this work?? I have noticed that some images put into a wad do not come
> out as planned in the game. This is understandable, so I would have to make
> up for it. But would the image be clear over all??
You have to make the picture into the Doom palette. Get DEUTEX v3.6
(that's the latest one I think). It contains DOOM.PAL and HERETIC.PAL.
Load your image into Paint Shop Pro. Click on each menubar item until
you find "Load Palette". Then goto the directory that has DOOM.PAL then
select DOOM.PAL. Then it'll convert the picture to the DOOM palette. If
it looks bad, then just touch it up with the paintbrush, and etc.
>
> 2. Does anyone think Marvel would have any problems with this??( I
> have a my own story for the game...)
Try contacting them somehow. Go to HTTP://WWW.YAHOO.COM/SEARCH.HTML and
search for "marvel". Marvel probably has their own internet site and
has an e-mail address. I don't know about this though.
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Rudy
>
>
------------------------------
From: Robert Fenske Jr <fenske@rgfpc.electro.swri.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:27:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: things & z-malloc
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Drake O'Brien wrote:
> I made a 2 sector level with a player 1 start and 5000 clips (copy and
> paste...). The level played but was slow. With 10000 clips I z-malloced
> out again. So it's narrowed down to between 5 and 10 K of clips ;)
Now put a cyber demon in the level and take him out with the pistol;
after all you'll have plenty of ammo ...
The number of things (and lines, sides, sectors, etc) that you can
start with is probably related to the amount of memory you have. A quick
check revealed that the max for DOOM I and II is 463 things in E1M6 and 509
in MAP10. Obviously no where near 5K of clips, but a goodly number
nonetheless. There may be a much smaller buffer available for things that
are created during play. If you play deathmatch on a single level for
awhile, old player bodies eventually disappear. I suspect that the available
things slots are being reused by fresh bodies. But DOOM doesn't ever recycle
gettable things (that I've ever seen), so perhaps all the available things
slots get filled with things that aren't reused which then crashes the game.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: Jim Lowell <jlowell@winternet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:29:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Windows95 Editing
At 01:55 PM 2/15/96 +1130, you wrote:
>To: Edward W. Jay From: Rudy
>
>>>Are there currently any editors made specifically for Windows '95? Most of
>>>the ones I see are for Dos and require me to enter the Dos-Prompt from
>>>Windows '95.
>
> I don't know personally. WinDEU only covers windows 3.1 or Windows NT
>or 32. WinTEX only covers 3.1. Most of the people who create these
>utilities are running on prett basic machines. You probably won't find an
>editor for Windows 95 for a while. I do know that an editor for Quake,
>which covers graphics and level editing) will come out for windows 95.
>Well....at least that's what the screen shot looks like.
>
Although you would have to talk to Matt about this, dCAD is written in Borland Delphi, and with the release of their 32-bit compiler (sometime within the next month) it should be able to be recompiled for Win95. It would then be a true Windows 95 Application.
- -= Jim Lowell =-
------------------------------
From: "Gregg J. Anderson" <gander@prairie.lakes.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:39:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: win95 editors
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Rudy XIII wrote:
>
> >>Are there currently any editors made specifically for Windows '95? Most of
>
> I don't know personally. WinDEU only covers windows 3.1 or Windows NT
> or 32. WinTEX only covers 3.1. Most of the people who create these
> utilities are running on prett basic machines. You probably won't find an
> editor for Windows 95 for a while. I do know that an editor for Quake,
> which covers graphics and level editing) will come out for windows 95.
> Well....at least that's what the screen shot looks like.
>
> -Rudy from SLaKSoFT
>
<sigh> Looks like another book has given reference to doom-editing again.
[patience mode on]
Please become familiar with the weekly reminders posted to the list.
This question doesn't belong here, but since it was answered in a manner
that will steer anyone reading it in the totally wrong direction, I'll
clear this up before it goes where it is heading...
There are at least two editors specific to win95:
Wauthor and WadStudio. They are located with all the other editors at
the usual ftp.cdrom.com/doom mirrors. There is no reason that win 3.x editors
will not work also... pull up the index file in the level_edit directory
of any ftp.cdrom.com/doom mirror to find anything and everything there is
available.
Unless I've been asleep for the last year, there are no quake editors.
(probably because quake is not released yet...duh) The screen shots on id's
ftp site are of *their* editor, which runs on a NeXt box. It is not a
public editor, and is not a Win95 editor you can get from your local FTP
site.
This info *could* have been gleaned by reading the doom FAQ and the
Quaketalk FAQ's.
[patience mode off]
I now declare this thread dead, before it goes any further away from
the purpose of this list. (which is posted weekly... hint, hint)
happy hacking,
=Gregg=
_____________________________________________________________________________
Gregg J. Anderson =o= gander@prairie.lakes.com
Mankato, MN USA =o= http://prairie.lakes.com/~gander
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: "Andrew Morton" <amorton@accutek.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 04:18:28 -0800
Subject: Re: DISproof of gettable projectile
> >I could be missing something but i made a square level with a couple
> >hundred boxes of rockets just and 2 launchers. Doom wouldnt render
> >most of them if you looked down the length of the level they'd start
> >to blink and or disapear. The game never crashed just a lot of
> >blinking. So id have to say it was probably the patch, since a
> >vanilla doom can handle it. As i said maybe i'm missing some thing.
> >andy
>
> I believe I'm the one who first brought up a limit in the amount of things
> existing. It seems to me like what is happening when Doom locks up in this
> way is that the thing array or table grows in size until the thing data
> engulfs and overwrites the code segment. Each time another thing is spawned,
> another item is added to the array, and for speed's sake the size is not
> checked. So when the processor tries to execute thing data, all hell breaks
> loose. Do I have it?
I've never had doom level 30 crash on me because of two many
sprites. That seems like a valid assumption to me, i guess that
would account for the fact that you can have an plenty of sprites at
the level start that but wouldn't explain the crashes unless when
it initalizes is forms an array with the amount of sprites and with say 256 free values
for spawned sprites. Well i don't think well really ever know until
the source is relesed.
+---------------------------+----------------------------+
| Q: How do we fix USR? | amorton@accutek.com |
| A: Buy a Supra! | amorton@nsn.scs.unr.edu |
| Just Say No to USR! | IRC Nick: inspector |
+---------------------------+----------------------------+
------------------------------
From: John Miezitis <John.Miezitis@its.utas.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:53:40 +1100
Subject: Doom-Editors-Digest on WWW http://bruckner.its.utas.edu.au/doom-digest/index.html
First, thank you to all who responded to my question re Sector Tags 666 and
667.
I had tried using the same level as doom 2 map07 but had not realised there
was a dependance on creature type.
The question had, of course, been asked before but trying to find in which
digest it would appear was not easy. The best suggestion I got was to
download all the files and grep through them. The download took over 2
hours for 576 files. Lucky I don't have to pay for my Internet connection.
I found this to be entirely unsatisfactory. So I have written a perl script
which will scan through digest files and separate them into files by subject
line (removing Re's). The script then creates an index file which lists in
alphabetical order all the subject lines and presents them as links to the
individual files.
You can now search the subject lines using Netscape/Mosaic's find then view
all the articles posted with that subject line in one file. To view this
web site connect to
http://bruckner.its.utas.edu.au/doom-digest/index.html
and please mail me your comments on how it could be improved.
If anybody who is currently archiving the doom-digests would like to use
this script to generate a web page for their local site please mail me and I
will send it to you. I don't really have the time or resources to do this
myself so am eager to hand this over to one of the doom page administrators.
I will try to keep this web page up until it is moved to a more appropriate
place.
Cheers.
- -JohnM
John B Miezitis, University of Tasmania, Information Technology Services.
Intl Ph: +61 02 207419, Email: John.Miezitis@its.utas.edu.au
Belgium man Belgium!!! - Z. Beeblebrox
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #578
**********************************
