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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 508
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #508
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Friday, 8 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 508
Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
Re: News Servers
Re: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
Converting
Re: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
Re: Converting
Re: Converting
RE: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
(fwd) Selling WAD files: the answers!
Hexen PolyObjs; help!
Re: Hexen PolyObjs; help!
RE: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
Re: Hexen PolyObjs; help!
3d Modeled Doom In VRML
Re: Converting
Re: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:53:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
Hi all,
I'm the guy making the Aliens Doom 3: Aliens vs Predator
wad/patch. My first beta is at cdrom.com in the themes/aliens/aliendm3
dir. I have a question that's been bothering me for a while,
there's a bug in my game that I can't test out often, so I was hoping
someone may have encountered this problem before and help me out...
When playing Aliens Doom 3 over the modem, Deathmatch constantly
crashes, always when someone appears or reappears. Logicall, I'll assume
this means there's a problem with my deathmatch starts. What I'm wondering
is whether the problem is in my DeHackEd patch or in the level .wad.
The reason I ask is that I have totally cannibalized the .exe, it's
almost unrecognizable now. But I was pretty sure I had kept the
Deathmatch start things the same. Has anyone out there had any problem
with their Deathmatch starts? Does placement or number of DM starts screw
up a level wad? Are there other things or special requirements connected
to the DM start thing in the .exe that can't be tampered with? Anyone?
Thanks,
Michael Gummelt
------------------------------
From: Mike Ruete <ruetem@lafvax.lafayette.edu>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 21:59:23 -0500
Subject: Re: News Servers
> I realise this is off-topic, but does anyone know of any public news
>servers in the Pennsylvania area? My school won't let you post with an
>external viewer, and the VAX sux for editing... So, I need a public server
>that will let me post without an account..... Thanks a lot....
Never mind this... I found a good one....
(block letters stolen from toledo@wpi.edu... Sorry, dude.)
_/_/_/
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/ ruetem@lafayette.edu
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ ftp://wouldn.t.you.like.to.know
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ http://this.page.intentionally.left.blank
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ a.k.a.=> Gripp (all you ifraggers know and
_/ fear me... Well, not all
of you...:)
"[insert thoughtful quote here]"
------------------------------
From: Mike Ruete <ruetem@lafvax.lafayette.edu>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 23:14:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
>Hi all,
> I'm the guy making the Aliens Doom 3: Aliens vs Predator
>wad/patch. My first beta is at cdrom.com in the themes/aliens/aliendm3
>dir. I have a question that's been bothering me for a while,
>there's a bug in my game that I can't test out often, so I was hoping
>someone may have encountered this problem before and help me out...
>
> When playing Aliens Doom 3 over the modem, Deathmatch constantly
>crashes, always when someone appears or reappears. Logicall, I'll assume
>this means there's a problem with my deathmatch starts. What I'm wondering
>is whether the problem is in my DeHackEd patch or in the level .wad.
>
>The reason I ask is that I have totally cannibalized the .exe, it's
>almost unrecognizable now. But I was pretty sure I had kept the
>Deathmatch start things the same. Has anyone out there had any problem
>with their Deathmatch starts? Does placement or number of DM starts screw
>up a level wad? Are there other things or special requirements connected
>to the DM start thing in the .exe that can't be tampered with? Anyone?
I'll only help you if you send me a beta...:)... Just kidding....
Anyway, I don't know about the .exe hacking, but I think I've had levels
crash when my starts were accidentally overlapping a wall or something a
little... Also check and make sure you don't have too many/too few of them.
Beyond that, I can't help you.
Good luck with the Conversion, though... I'm looking foreward to it.
_/_/_/
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/ ruetem@lafayette.edu
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ ftp://wouldn.t.you.like.to.know
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ http://this.page.intentionally.left.blank
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ a.k.a.=> Gripp (all you ifraggers know and
_/ fear me... Well, not all
of you...:)
"[insert thoughtful quote here]"
------------------------------
From: Pangier@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:51:19 -0500
Subject: Converting
I'm looking for wad converters. I have one that converts doom1 to doom2, and
also have one that converts doom1 to heretic. But I'm trying to find a way to
use a doom2 wad in heretic. If I had a converter that would change from doom2
to doom1, I could use the doom1 to heretic pwad converter.
Can anyone help?
Pangier@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 02:53:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
Reutem...
Thanks for the tips, I'll try them out. By the
way, how many is too many deathmatch starts? I didn't know
there could be too many, just too few. I really think it's
in y wad design, not the .exe or it would happen EVERY time.
Mike
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:44:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Converting
Ooops, Ijust remembered th name of that converter, its:
DM2CONV.*
It;s very good. I know it at least goes D2->D since I
used it to convert Tricks and Traps to my Aliens Doom 3
(for Doom 1.9) just for kicks. Even thou I had new
things and textures, it transferred over very well and
required only a little tinkering.
Mike gummelt
------------------------------
From: Michael Gummelt <gummelt@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:31:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Converting
There is a dmconv program that I believe allows
conversion of any one format to any other. Look
for DMCNV## or DMCONV.*, something like that.
Mike Gummelt
On Fri, 8 Dec 1995 Pangier@AOL.COM wrote:
> I'm looking for wad converters. I have one that converts doom1 to doom2, and
> also have one that converts doom1 to heretic. But I'm trying to find a way to
> use a doom2 wad in heretic. If I had a converter that would change from doom2
> to doom1, I could use the doom1 to heretic pwad converter.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> Pangier@aol.com
>
>
------------------------------
From: Mike Ruete <ruetem@lafvax.lafayette.edu>
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 10:04:59 -0500
Subject: RE: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
>Reutem...
> Thanks for the tips, I'll try them out. By the
>way, how many is too many deathmatch starts? I didn't know
>there could be too many, just too few. I really think it's
>in y wad design, not the .exe or it would happen EVERY time.
>
>Mike
I'm not sure if there _can_ be too many, but if you've got like 40
starts or something, you might want to chop it down a little. 10-12 is
probably a safe number. Also, could you refresh my memory as to what
exactly the error you get is? And you might also want to try deathmatching
with just the map wad with no dehacked patch, and preferable no external
sprites/flats.
Oh, and ruetem is my last name and first initial... You can call me
"Mike", too....:)
_/_/_/
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/ ruetem@lafayette.edu
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ ftp://wouldn.t.you.like.to.know
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ http://this.page.intentionally.left.blank
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ a.k.a.=> Gripp (all you ifraggers know and
_/ fear me... Well, not all
of you...:)
"[insert thoughtful quote here]"
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:12:10 +0100 (MET)
Subject: (fwd) Selling WAD files: the answers!
Hello!
There have been several discussions in rec.games.computer.doom.editing
about copyright laws and WAD files. There was a similar debate on this
list some time ago, and I took the time to collect the best answers that
I could get. Here is the summary of all this, which I posted today
in the newsgroup r.g.c.d.editing. Enjoy! :-)
- ------ Forwarded Article <4a9iak$1qt@erinews.ericsson.se>
- -From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se (Raphael Quinet)
- -Newsgroups: rec.games.computer.doom.editing
- -Subject: *** Selling WAD files: the answers! ***
- -Date: 8 Dec 1995 14:32:52 GMT
I will try to explain the various points which are related to the copyright
issue regarding WAD files. This will hopefully end the debate that has been
going on in this newsgroup for some time...
But before that, I want to give three reasons why you should NOT sell any
WAD files. I don't want to harm id Software or the Doom community by
revealing the truth, so please consider this first:
* Since December 1993, several hundreds of WAD files have been created and
distributed for free. You have probably played several dozens of them.
These WAD files were created with freeware or shareware editors, using
the example of other WAD files and the guidelines given in the Unofficial
Doom Specs or other tutorials. Most of these programs and documents were
created by people who spent a lot of time on this without being paid. If
you create a WAD file, you are using tools made by others and you benefit
from the experience of the hundreds of levels that were distributed for
free. If you respect all these people, do not try to sell them something
which is based on their work.
* You can use WAD files with Doom because id Software did not try to prevent
you from doing it. If they loose their faith in the Doom community, they
will try to protect themselves and prevent you from using third-party
levels with future games (such as Quake). Well, they won't actually do
this because the "openness" of Doom made its success, but they could for
example make sure that the only way to create third-party levels is by
using their own editor, which would come with a strict license regarding
the distribution of new levels. In that case, they would have the right
to sue anybody who tries to distribute a level created with their editor,
if it wasn't done according to their license. I don't want this to
happen! Think of what would happen if the new WAD format for Quake was
patented: all of a sudden, all third-party editors would become illegal.
* If you really want to sell a WAD file because you spent so many weeks on
it that you think you deserve to be paid for your work, then do not try
to sell it on your own. Sell it to id Software instead. If your WAD is
really good, then maybe they will pay you for it and distribute it in a
new collection of levels. If they don't accept it, then your WAD is
probably not good enough to be sold anyway. This will keep the standard
to a high level. If all WAD authors would start selling their levels,
there would certainly be a lot of crap on the market and we would all
loose in the end. Even if a WAD was sold for a small price (say, $5),
would you spend hundreds of dollars in order to try several of them and
eventually find a good one?
After these warnings, here are the reasons why it would be legal to sell
WAD files:
* The WAD format is not patented and any patent claim is likely to fail
because the format is too simple and is already used by lots of programs.
It's like if you wanted to patent the bubble sort algorithm (historical
note: someone tried, and failed). So if you have a program which creates
WAD files, there is no legal restriction in creating those files (unless
these restrictions are in the license of that program). There are lots of
programs that can create and use these files.
* Anything that comes from the IWAD (doom1.wad, doom.wad, doom2.wad,
heretic.wad or hexen.wad) is the property of id Software or Raven Software
and may not be extracted or re-distributed. The only exception is the
shareware IWAD file which may be distributed, but only in its original
format (i.e. the whole shareware game). In other words, if you create a
level which includes some textures or sounds that were extracted from the
IWAD, it would be illegal to distribute it. Even modified textures would
fall in this category, because the original artwork is copyrighted (if you
are sued for copyright infringement with your modified textures, it would
be up to the jury to decide if id's artwork has been copied or not, and I
wouldn't rely on that if I were you).
* Including references to the textures is not the same as including the
textures themselves. A WAD which uses the textures created by id Software
without including the wall patches (images) does not infringe any
copyrights.
* The Data Utility License tells the authors of third-party editors that
the license for their program must include a statement saying that it is
illegal to sell the files that are created by the editors. Although
several authors signed this license with id Software, most of them didn't.
So you can use most of the editors safely and do whatever you want with
the WAD files that you create. You could also use old versions of the
editors which were released before id Software came with the Data Utility
License (this is the case for DEU 5.21, which was released in May 1994,
just before I received and signed the D.U.L.).
* One cannot claim that WAD files can only be used with Doom and thus fall
under its license, because this is not true any more. There are several
programs which can use WAD files even if you don't have Doom or any game
based on the Doom engine. These programs are legal because the D.U.L.
does not apply to them: that license was written mainly for programs which
use id Software's source code for the Nodes builder (IDBSP). For example,
utilities such as BSP (which was derived from my independent Nodes builder
code in DEU 5.1 and not from IDBSP) are not subject to the D.U.L.
* Keep in mind that Doom, Doom II and the Doom logo are trademarks of id
Software, inc. So if you want to make profit out of a WAD file or add-on
for Doom, you have to be careful about that. But usually, you should be
safe if you put a trademark notice somewhere in the documentation and if
the word "Doom" is only used for information purposes, and not for
advertisement.
In summary, it is perfectly legal to sell WAD files under some conditions.
And while I'm opening Pandora's box, I should also add that it is perfectly
legal to create WAD files for the shareware version of Doom or Heretic, or
for the demo version of Hexen. It is also legal to distribute (or sell) a
brand new IWAD file created from scratch, which would have the effect of
transforming any shareware version into the equivalent of the registered
game. But this would not be an easy task because you have to create new
levels and new textures, but also new color palettes, new fonts, etc. This
means more than a Total Conversion, which is already very complex.
If you have other questions, I suggest that you read the Copyright FAQ first.
I think you can find a copy of it in news.answers. I don't know if it is
also available on WWW. Otherwise, get in touch with a lawyer, but think
twice before posting a followup to this article if you don't know the law.
Note: if tried to verify all these points to the best of my knowledge, but I
may be wrong in some cases. Some countries or states have slightly different
laws regarding copyrights and trademarks. Don't sue me for that.
Remember: even if you can sell a WAD file, DO NOT do it! This would:
- - show a lack of respect for the Doom community (all people who gave you
their levels for free),
- - annoy the people at id Software who could then decide to protect themselves
for future games,
- - discourage other people from creating levels or editors for free, and
- - slow down the development of future games and game editors.
You would gain a little, but everybody would loose on the long run (including
yourself).
- -Raphael
- --
This article is Copyright (C) 1995 by Raphael Quinet. You are allowed to
distribute it outside the Usenet news group rec.games.computer.doom.editing
or the doom-editing mailing list, but only if it is distributed verbatim,
including this copyright notice. Distribution of parts of this message
outside these two forums require prior approval from the author.
- ------ End of Forwarded Article
- --
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| WWW: http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~quinet |
| E-mail: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se or quinet@montefiore.ulg.ac.be |
| S-mail: Raphael Quinet, 9 rue des Martyrs, 4550 Nandrin (Belgium) |
| --* Read rec.games.computer.doom.editing for info and help about DEU. *-- |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
From: Jim Davis <JAD7084@tntech.edu>
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 09:28:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hexen PolyObjs; help!
I'm having a good deal of trouble getting PolyObjects to work in Hexen.
I'm fairly certain I've got everything set right; the polyobj appears and
moves as it should, for the most part, but from most angles it appears to
be missing. I can face it from one direction, and everything's fine, but
if I go around to the other side of it, it's transparent.
Basically, a section of my map looks like this:
#### A :::::::: | .----------.
####### :: ::: | | /y |
########## :::: :: | | \D\ |
#############:: :: | | \D\ |
############## C :: | | E \/ |
### :: /x :: A | `----------'
### :: \D\ :: #### |
### :: \D\ :: ###### | Sectors A and B are
### ::: \/ ############ | normal, all # marks are
### ::: \/ ############ | normal, all # marks are
### B ::: ########### | off-map, D is the poly,
:::::######### | and C is for the poly to
####### | do it's thing in. E is
- ------------------------------------------------' where the poly's
originally drawn, and y and x are it's anchor/start points, respectively.
I've got all the sides of D set up as PolyObj_ExplicitLine, numbering them
1 through 4 counterclockwise, with the first argument being 100 (PolyID).
The anchor and start each have an angle of 100. Sector C is PLENTY big
enough for D to rotate counterclockwise 90 degrees; I've watched it on the
MAPSCO map. Everything's fine initially; when the sector does it's 90'
rotation, I can see *through* it from most angles! Anything I'm doing
wrong?
- --
.-----------.--------------------.------------------------------------.
| Jim Davis | jad7084@tntech.edu | http://www.csc.tntech.edu/~jadavis |
`-----------^--------------------^------------------------------------'
------------------------------
From: Walter Meyer <wrmeyer@immd3.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 17:14:48 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Re: Hexen PolyObjs; help!
>
> I'm having a good deal of trouble getting PolyObjects to work in Hexen.
> I'm fairly certain I've got everything set right; the polyobj appears and
> moves as it should, for the most part, but from most angles it appears to
> be missing. I can face it from one direction, and everything's fine, but
> if I go around to the other side of it, it's transparent.
>
> Basically, a section of my map looks like this:
> #### A :::::::: | .----------.
> ####### :: ::: | | /y |
> ########## :::: :: | | \D\ |
> #############:: :: | | \D\ |
> ############## C :: | | E \/ |
> ### :: /x :: A | `----------'
> ### :: \D\ :: #### |
> ### :: \D\ :: ###### | Sectors A and B are
> ### ::: \/ ############ | normal, all # marks are
> ### ::: \/ ############ | normal, all # marks are
> ### B ::: ########### | off-map, D is the poly,
> :::::######### | and C is for the poly to
> ####### | do it's thing in. E is
> ------------------------------------------------' where the poly's
> originally drawn, and y and x are it's anchor/start points, respectively.
> I've got all the sides of D set up as PolyObj_ExplicitLine, numbering them
> 1 through 4 counterclockwise, with the first argument being 100 (PolyID).
> The anchor and start each have an angle of 100. Sector C is PLENTY big
> enough for D to rotate counterclockwise 90 degrees; I've watched it on the
> MAPSCO map. Everything's fine initially; when the sector does it's 90'
> rotation, I can see *through* it from most angles! Anything I'm doing
> wrong?
>
> --
> .-----------.--------------------.------------------------------------.
> | Jim Davis | jad7084@tntech.edu | http://www.csc.tntech.edu/~jadavis |
> `-----------^--------------------^------------------------------------'
>
It seems like the area where your PolyObject is displayed is split by some
nodes for the BSP-tree. This would cause exactly the problem you describe.
Walter
------------------------------
From: wdwhitak@grissom.jpl.nasa.gov (William D. Whitaker)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 08:47:49 PST
Subject: RE: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
> Thanks for the tips, I'll try them out. By the
>way, how many is too many deathmatch starts? I didn't know
>there could be too many, just too few. I really think it's
There must be at least 4, and any more then 10 are ignored.
On this thread, any one know how the initial starts are
defined. Of course at the start of each deathmatch on
a map, each color always starts in the same place. Question
is how this is defined. I suspect it is object # related,
but I heard other theories on this list a while back...
but no setteled answer. anyone?
-Bill
------------------------------
From: Jim Davis <JAD7084@tntech.edu>
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 12:36:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Hexen PolyObjs; help!
> > MAPSCO map. Everything's fine initially; when the sector does it's 90'
> > rotation, I can see *through* it from most angles! Anything I'm doing
> > wrong?
>
> It seems like the area where your PolyObject is displayed is split by some
> nodes for the BSP-tree. This would cause exactly the problem you describe.
Hmm. I don't know much about BSP-tree generation. Should I adjust the
shape of the sector (ASCII art stinks; it's convex, honestly!) or look for
a node-builder switch (I'm using WARM1.5)?
.-----------.--------------------.------------------------------------.
| Jim Davis | jad7084@tntech.edu | http://www.csc.tntech.edu/~jadavis |
`-----------^--------------------^------------------------------------'
------------------------------
From: Bill_Campbell@corp.dialog.com (Bill Campbell)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:48:26 -0800
Subject: 3d Modeled Doom In VRML
A bit of topic but might be worth checking out...
http://www.ocnus.com/doom.html
Browse 3d textured models of doom levels....Caveat, you need Win95
Browser with vrml addon.
Doc
------------------------------
From: FrancisGA@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:14:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Converting
In a message dated 95-12-08 02:20:24 EST, you write:
>I'm looking for wad converters. I have one that converts doom1 to doom2, and
>also have one that converts doom1 to heretic. But I'm trying to find a way
to
>use a doom2 wad in heretic. If I had a converter that would change from
doom2
>to doom1, I could use the doom1 to heretic pwad converter.
>
>Can anyone help?
>
>Pangier@aol.com
>
>
Use dm2conv. It's on ftp.cdrom.com somewhere. Look in likely directorys.
------------------------------
From: FrancisGA@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:14:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Deathmatch starts in doom wads...
In a message dated 95-12-08 10:23:56 EST, you write:
>>Reutem...
>> Thanks for the tips, I'll try them out. By the
>>way, how many is too many deathmatch starts? I didn't know
>>there could be too many, just too few. I really think it's
>>in y wad design, not the .exe or it would happen EVERY time.
>>
>>Mike
>
> I'm not sure if there _can_ be too many, but if you've got like 40
>starts or something, you might want to chop it down a little. 10-12 is
>probably a safe number. Also, could you refresh my memory as to what
>exactly the error you get is? And you might also want to try deathmatching
>with just the map wad with no dehacked patch, and preferable no external
>sprites/flats.
>
> Oh, and ruetem is my last name and first initial... You can call me
>"Mike", too....:)
>
>
10 is the limit. You CANNOT have more than 10 **PER DIFFICULTY LEVEL** (not
per map) So the maximum # of deathmatch starts you could have if you used 10
different ones for every difficulty level is 30.
- --
FrancisGA@aol.com
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #508
**********************************
