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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 463
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #463
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Tuesday, 31 October 1995 Volume 01 : Number 463
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TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
Re: repost of newdoor?
RE: The TNT Project
Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
Re: The TNT Project
Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
An open letter to TNT
ADMIN NOTICE: An open letter to TNT
Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
ghost sector
TNT:Evilution Information now available
Re: ghost sector
Re: TNT:Evilution Information now available
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jbrown@odont.com (Morphius)
Date: 29 Oct 1995 18:57:06 PDT
Subject: unscribe
DO>Original Sender: "Fred M. Sullivan" <sullivan@onramp.net>
DO> unscribe
ohhh, this is a interesting message...hehe hummm, sad actually.
/-/-Delekhan-\-\
------------------------------
From: jbrown@odont.com (Morphius)
Date: 29 Oct 1995 19:02:04 PDT
Subject: TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
GUYS, just let TNT do whatever the hell they want, they will do what
they want, even if we discuss this for the next 2 years.
/-/-Delekhan-\-\
has spoken hehe
------------------------------
From: Jens Hedegaard Hykkelbjerg <hykkelbj@daimi.aau.dk>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:44:35 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Re: repost of newdoor?
>Could somebody either mail me the newdoor.zip (which was posted
>here a while ago) or repost it to this digest? Thanks.
If you're interested in special effects in general and not just in
newdoor, you should can get my complete collection of
special effect WADs including newdoor from
ftp://ftp.luth.se/pub/doom/newstuff/spcial12.zip
You should of course also check out my WWW pages:
http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~hykkelbj/doom/index.html
(Sorry to mention them again on this list)
/Jens
- --
Jens Hykkelbjerg | "Civilisation began with the felling
Aarhus Universitet | of the first tree; and, it will end
Email: hykkelbj@daimi.aau.dk | with the felling of the last."
WWW: http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~hykkelbj/index.html
------------------------------
From: Matthew Miller <rmiller@infinet.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 06:35:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: The TNT Project
On Sun, 29 Oct 1995, Zoltan Sandor wrote:
> TNT release in January?!!
> Boys, are you out of your mind? Who will care about TNT when Quake is out?
> I thought it might be a great fun to play new DOOM wads till Quake, but
> after it?
Whoever said Quake absolutely *would* be released by January? When's the
last time Id software were able to release something when they said they
would release it? :)
Matthew Miller -- rmiller@infinet.com
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@NeRo.Uni-Bonn.DE>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 13:49:25 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
Admin remark: Steve and I agree that a *useful* discussion
of legal issues is on-topic - it's not the first time, btw.,
and we never got very far. Go ahead.
Personal remark: please keep in mind that:
a) there's usually no conclusion to find with legal issues
b) most of us don't know copyright and trademark law
c) everybody can sue you, if he's willing to risk the money
Having said that, I'd like to state that I do not quite
agree to the viewpoint that Id's LICENSE solves the
problem.
1) PWADs are copyrighted material, copyright belongs
to the authors
2) besides (c), Id has no leverage to stop any
copyright owner from selling his work
3) law restricts the use of trademarks, e.g. "DOOM"
or "Id Software". If proper acknowledgment
is sufficient or not depends on the details,
and I do *not* know enough about this
4) the LICENSE, for several reasons, does not and can not
change any of the above
I do not want to comment on one particular author's decision,
and I don't think that'd be a useful discussion. The bottom line
is, it's the *author's* decision, not Id's, or ours. For this
reason,
You may not sell or distribute any Permitted Derivative Works
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
does *not* hold, be this good or bad. I do hope Id got legal
advice on this issue, and that there won't similar confusion
with upcoming games' LICENSEs.
B.
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 13:50:28 GMT
Subject: Re: The TNT Project
At 6:59 pm 28/10/95, Ted Vessenes wrote:
>
>Good point. People on the project can ONLY charge for a distribution fee.
>The wad itself must be free. Therefore if anyone buys one copy of the wad,
>they may _legally_ (according to the licensing agreement included in the
>DOOM 2 installation) copy the wad and give it to whomever they choose,
>upload it to an ftp site, and so on.
>
Not so. The license says:
you may exchange the Permitted Derivative Works at no charge
amongst other end-users.
This statement means that you are free to give _your_ WADs to your friends
and receive _their_ WADs in exchange. It cannot be interpreted to mean "no
author of a Permitted Derivative Work shall hold copyright in that work",
which is the way you are trying to interpret it. Anyone carrying out the
actions you suggest will lay themselves wide open to prosecution by the
copyright holder. And you can be pretty sure they'd win, so it'd be well
worth the copyright owner persuing such a case. And believe you me, you
wouldn't like the way such cases are handled.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 13:27:38 GMT
Subject: Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
At 1:49 pm 30/10/95, Bernd Kreimeier wrote:
> I'd like to state that I do not quite
>agree to the viewpoint that Id's LICENSE solves the
>problem.
[snip]
>You may not sell or distribute any Permitted Derivative Works
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>does *not* hold, be this good or bad. I do hope Id got legal
>advice on this issue, and that there won't similar confusion
>with upcoming games' LICENSEs.
Bernd is quite right: take a look at just one section of id's licence agreement:
you may create a map editor, modify maps and make your own maps
(collectively referenced as the "Permitted Derivative Works") for the
Software. You may not sell or distribute any Permitted Derivative Works
but you may exchange the Permitted Derivative Works at no charge amongst
other end-users.
OK so far. This says that map editors, and maps are PDW's and cannot be
sold commercially. Fine. But the license _then_ goes on to say:
In order to commercially distribute any such map editor or data utility
you must first sign ID's Data Utility License and ID reserves the right to
deny authorization to commercial distribute the any such map editor or
data utility.
So the license says you cannot sell PDW's (which includes map editors,
note) but that you can sell map editors or data utilities if you sign the
DUL. Logicians will tell you there is a contradiction in there. Lawyers
will tell you there's money to be made here (for them, that is, not you!)
The bottom line is always not *can* someone sue, but *will* someone sue. In
order to persue a successful case, id would have to demonstrate that they
had been damaged by the breach of their license terms. As it is always
necessary to buy DOOM (or DOOM2) to run the add-on maps, it would be
difficult to see how they could do this. If id were selling their own
add-on maps, then maybe, because then the 'unlicensed' PDW would be
competing directly with an id product. As it is, I for one can't see id
caring much about DOOM WADs being sold. But then, I'm not in the firing
line ;)
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: Walter Meyer <wrmeyer@immd3.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:54:45 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
Hi, there,
the only thing i'm really afraid of is that this affair will be the last nail
on the coffin for homemade Quake wad's. If it's true that id didn't like the
D!Zone and Boom CD's they won't like this at all.
Walter
------------------------------
From: Mark_Poole@ena-east.ericsson.se (Mark Poole)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:56:13 -0500
Subject: An open letter to TNT
First:
I see nothing wrong with people getting compensated for hard work. I
have not seen your work, but it sounds like you took the trouble to do
your best. I'll bet most of us would like to be able to make some
"walk-around money" on something we worked hard to make right.
Second:
As long as you compensate and/or acknowledge the others who made your
efforts possible (id Software, the creators of the level editors,
etc.), I think you will be standing on the moral high ground.
Third:
What really pisses off most people is that someone (I don't know for
sure if it was one of your own) posted what amounts to a shameless
plug on some of the newsgroups. It made many hyped up claims, along
the lines of; "Doom ][ too wimpy for you? Our levels are the best
examples of single-player and deathmatch mode, yatta, yatta, yatta."
Despite this breach of net etiquette, it could almost be forgiven,
because you said you were going to make it free for the downloading.
Then, on the day you were supposed to release it, your web-site stated
it would be delayed because of a vague reference to technical
difficulties.
Now we learn that you are going to sell this product, which days
earlier was touted as a "freebie." Worse, you lied about the delay,
for you held it up because you were trying to make a deal.
You should have come clean with your new-found audience on the day of
the delay. You should make the details (as much as you can due to
nondisclosure agreements) available on your web-site. You should own
up to your mistake (the bait and switch tactics) and apologize -along
the lines of "sorry, but the cat has to eat" would be a starting
point.
Last:
Waiting to release it two months after you said it is finished is
tantamount to suicide. I have no doubt that people will buy it. For
your sake, I hope that it gets out well before Quake. I do not think
that Quake will sound the death-knell of Doom, but the amount of
attention it will generate is going to leave Doom on the dusty shelves
below eye-level. If your wads are as good as you claim, the retailers
will make room for it now. After Quake, I'll bet it will be hard for
them to make room. Doom will still be played, because it is still
great, but so was Castle Wolfenstein, before Doom came around.
To sum up:
I have no problem with you selling something based on your efforts, as
long as you do it legally.
I do have problems with posting advertising in newsgroups.
I have absolutely zero tolerance for bait & switch tactics.
I bet you guys are going to find plenty of people (who are not
on-line) to buy your product. Until you own up to your mistakes,
however, it will be hard for you to have much respect with the
news-group denizens. Delaying this much-touted product for two months
only makes it worse.
This whole thing leaves a hard to pin down feeling of "this sucks"
lingering about it.
I genuinely hope the technical merits of your efforts will dispel this
feeling whenever and however it gets to it's intended audience.
I really don't want to hear anything else from TNT about how great
this thing is, though. The saying goes "Put up or shut up." Friday,
Oct. 27th was supposed to be "Put Up."
Mark
Mark_Poole@ena-east.ericsson.se
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 16:35:58 GMT
Subject: ADMIN NOTICE: An open letter to TNT
At 9:56 am 30/10/95, Mark Poole wrote:
[snip]
>
> I really don't want to hear anything else from TNT about how great
> this thing is, though. The saying goes "Put up or shut up." Friday,
> Oct. 27th was supposed to be "Put Up."
>
DOOM-editing is open to discussion of doom-editing issues, be they
technical, legal or moral. It is *NOT* open to criticism, however well
founded that may (or may not) be of the actions of other members of the
list.
Please do *NOT* post replies (either in support of its sentiments, or in
defense of the TNTteam, who are probably all mightily embarrassed about
this whole things anyway) about this open letter to the list. I know that
TeamTNT feel that they've all learnt a lot from their experiences on this
project. No doubt that learning process continues... but not here please.
All that's likely to ensue is bad feelings. Time for everyone to shut up,
please.
- -Steve Benner
list caretaker <- this makes it an official notice, ok? ;)
------------------------------
From: Olivier <montanuy@lsun80.lannion.cnet.fr>
Date: 30 Oct 95 17:59:48+0100
Subject: Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
> the only thing i'm really afraid of is that this affair will be the last nail
> on the coffin for homemade Quake wad's. If it's true that id didn't like the
> D!Zone and Boom CD's they won't like this at all.
I think it's totally different. D!Zone didn't *sell* any WAD, it had you pay
for *distribution* fee. like you pay to U/L a WAD on Compuserve or on the
net (well, I don't, but some do).
AFAIK this pay-for-distribution scheme wasn't ruled out by id software, and
in fact it cannot be ruled out, unless copyrighted material is involved.
What they can probably do, though, is require a sub-licensing for CDs, and
personnaly I think there would be a lot less crappy CD around if id had taken
the time to control this market.
Anyway, we will have a dozen or so Quake-like editable games out within
2 months of the release of Quake, so this will be totally pointless.
Of course, I still hope Quake will be the best of those ;-)
The only relevant question is: who will do the DOOM conversion to Quake? ;-)
This one will require using copyrighted material...
Olivier Montanuy
Author of WinTex 4.0e-buggy-never-works-I-hate-visual-basic-and-windows.
------------------------------
From: Andrew Smith <cm4bcajs@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 17:04:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: TNT WAD/legal issues
On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Steve Benner wrote:
> The bottom line is always not *can* someone sue, but *will* someone sue. In
> order to persue a successful case, id would have to demonstrate that they
> had been damaged by the breach of their license terms. As it is always
> necessary to buy DOOM (or DOOM2) to run the add-on maps, it would be
> difficult to see how they could do this. If id were selling their own
> add-on maps, then maybe, because then the 'unlicensed' PDW would be
> competing directly with an id product. As it is, I for one can't see id
> caring much about DOOM WADs being sold. But then, I'm not in the firing
> line ;)
I'm breaking into the TNT WAD thing halfway through, but I take it this
is a multi-mission WAD for Doom or Doom 2? If so, will it contain the
standard wad template file (i.e. a tnt.txt file) and presumably it's
going to say "you may not use this WAD as a base for other work."?
Who made the TNT WAD? Was it made by a group of level designers, who were
then approached by a company, or was it a commercial project right from
the beginning?
Andrew Smith -- who wonders where he'd put everything, if he had it.
------------------------------
From: "Jason Czaplewski" <jason@epilepsy.health.ufl.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 14:52:25 EST
Subject: ghost sector
I keep having a problem with two ghost items in my level creations.
1) An invisible ghost sector, that has sector ceiling and floor attributes of the host sector, but invisible, unpassible linedefs. Bullets, etc pass through, cell gun, bfg, rockets do not (player cannon pass as well --redundant). Anyway, I used DCK to create the level from the start and it does not show this invisible sector. It is only there when playing the wad. ??
2) Walls that eat up rockets. The rockets do not explode, they are just consumed. It is occurring on platform lower textures. They are set to impassible, but, the top, or rather the middle texture is a see through grate texture. ??
Thanks.
Jason
------------------------------
From: Ty Halderman <thldrmn@neosoft.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:07:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: TNT:Evilution Information now available
After discussions this morning with the company releasing TNT:Evilution, I
have been given permission to release their name. I'll also give a bit of
other information that should make some of my previous statements clearer.
TNT:Evilution has been purchased by id Software.
They intend to release Evilution as a separate product, not as an addon PWAD
or set of levels. There will be a customized EXE based on the DOOM2 engine.
A likely name for the product is DOOM2:Evilution (insert II or ][ if you
prefer).
I am the sole contact with id for TeamTNT, and Shawn Green is the contact
from id Software. The TeamTNT Quality Control Team has formed a small
negotiating team that will represent TeamTNT on contractual matters.
A week of history:
Monday night, 23 October, about 4 hours before we were going to release
TNT:E at no charge, I received an email from John Romero asking that we
consider allowing id Software to market TNT:Evilution. We discussed the
details of the plans id had for TNT:E, and a majority of the QCT voted that
night to hold off until Friday to allow id to better evaluate the product.
Friday I talked with John Romero and he said that id Software did want
TNT:E. We immediately posted to the mailing lists, web page and newsgroups
at that time.
A word from Ty:
Since then, because we couldn't tell everyone that id Software was involved,
we have received a tremendous amount of heat for our decision. We've been
called everything from creeps to crooks. I frankly thought the only people
who would be as vocal as they have been would be the people who expected a
free product and found they couldn't have one.
Personally, I was surprised and disappointed to find that we were considered
lowlife by the very people we have worked with in supporting id Software and
DOOM itself. Contrary to normal business protocol, I put pressure on id
Software to allow us to release their name, in hopes that TNT:E and TeamTNT
might be seen in a different light. Here we are, providing our best work to
id, helping to lengthen the uncertain longevity of the DOOM product, and we
have had to respond to flames and criticisms that have been generated in an
environment lacking in facts. Well, now you know the facts. I hope things
can get back to normal.
I personally think that having TNT:E recognized as an id-quality product is
the highest honor any wad authors can ask for, and I am incredibly proud of
TeamTNT for their efforts. I apologize to anyone who has been offended by
our rather sudden change from free to id-product, but I'd think that almost
anyone would have done the same thing.
As in my previous post, I'll be glad to respond to personal email, and I'm
sure the philosophical discussions can continue, but let's try to get back
to normal doom-editing topics, OK?
=- Ty Halderman <thldrmn@neosoft.com> -=
=- Originator of .sigs imitated -=
------------------------------
From: Jim Wraith <jim@kildare.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 22:37:32 GMT
Subject: Re: ghost sector
In your message dated Monday 30, October 1995 you wrote :
> I keep having a problem with two ghost items in my level creations.
>
> 1) An invisible ghost sector, that has sector ceiling and floor attributes of
>the host sector, but invisible, unpassible linedefs. Bullets, etc pass
>through, cell gun, bfg, rockets do not (player cannon pass as well--redundant).
>Anyway, I used DCK to create the level from the start and it does not show this
>invisible sector. It is only there when playing the wad. ??
Put some invisible lines through the problem sector.. This could help, I dunno..
> 2) Walls that eat up rockets. The rockets do not explode, they are just
>consumed. It is occurring on platform lower textures. They are set to
>impassible, but, the top, or rather the middle texture is a see through grate
>texture. ??
Flip the lines over.
> Thanks.
>
> Jason
>
- --
------------------------------
From: Mark York <MYORK@fs8host.ccccd.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:59:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: TNT:Evilution Information now available
> From: Ty Halderman <thldrmn@neosoft.com>
> Subject: TNT:Evilution Information now available
>
> TNT:Evilution has been purchased by id Software.
>
Can all you flamers say, "DOH!!!!!!"
/-------------------------------------------------------------\
| Mark York B&E Computer Lab Manager Central Park Campus |
| Soon to be B&E Hardware/Software Guru type Tech Dude |
| Collin County Community College McKinney, Texas, USA |
| email: myork@fs8host.ccccd.edu WWW: http://192.231.40.143 |
| IRC nick of Mad_Dog, Channel op on #Windows95 and #Win95 |
|-------------------------------------------------------------|
| One .sig to rule them all, one .sig to find them; |
| One .sig to bring them all and on the Internet bind them... |
| In the land of 'puters where the hackers lie... |
\-------------------------------------------------------------/
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #463
**********************************
