Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 484
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #484
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Thursday, 16 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 484
Re: FW: late quake release
Debates
Re: FW: late quake release
Stop the Religious battle
Re: lighting increments
Re: late quake release
Re: Debates
Re: FW: late quake release
Re: late quake release
Re: unholy imagery
Re: lighting increments
HCK screenshots + some info now on my site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Damerell <djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 18:13:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: FW: late quake release
On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Flynn Kenneth SSgt USAFE/LGMMA wrote:
> I agree with Avatars statement regarding religion. I really think DOOM/DOOM
> ][ etc are the BEST games out, but the screenshots of Quake depict a
> Christ-Like figure crucified on the wall....Why?
As does Doom. In a lake of blood in green marble. Nifty.
>There are plenty of other
> ways to design a popular game. The fact that the graphical environment is
> so much better than in DOOM is enough in itself. id should at the very
> least have the basic respect for the creator of all on this earth...GOD and
> for religion in general. If it weren't for God and Jesus, we wouldn't be
> here at all and id wouldn't even exist...so respect is due.
Bullshit. (Religious flamewars on doom-editing are not a good idea, so
we'll leave it at noting that not everybody - iD included - believes this
nonsense, which renders the above argument rather weak.)
I think iD's attempt to provide a genuine impression of 'evil and
twisted' is an excellent idea...
- --
David 'Gotterdammerung' Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk.
Trinity College, Cambridge University. CUWoCS President. All Hail Discordia!
|___| "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc." Confessed Mecrediphile? |___|
| | | Or, in Klingon: "belDaq maH nucharghbogh chaHvetlh DISop maH." | | |
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 14:02:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Debates
Religious debates are not on-topic for this mailing list. I'm sure
almost every list member has strong feeling about the matter one way or
the other (including myself), but either deal with them with private
email or take the debate to a more, um, uncontrolled forum. Like
alt.games.quake. :)
Greg Lewis
------------------------------
From: Jeffery Galinovsky - EUCD <jgalinov@pcocd2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:25:14 -0800
Subject: Re: FW: late quake release
All,
This is not meant as a flame, but as a general comment about
this discussion of "religeous graphics" in Quake. Here are my
comments:
1.) The game isn't even out yet and all this speculation about
anti-religeous imagery. Wait until the game comes out and
then if there is this type of imagery then complain. But what
you see is probably no where near what it will finally look
like.
2.) What you see may not be what it really is. You may see a person
that looks like a relegious figure crucified on a wall, but it may
be an Imp or new Quake creature hanging on that wall!
My point is: Don't speculate, Don't get in a tissy, and Don't accuse
anyone until you see the final product...!!!
O.K. I am off my soapbox now...can we return to editing discussions now?
Thanks for letting me vent! - Jeff
- --
_\|/_ jgalinov@pcocd2.intel.com _\|/_
(o o) Jeffery_R_Galinovsky@ccm.fm.intel.com (o o)
oOOo-(_)-oOOo-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-oOOo-(_)-oOOo
.oo0O O0oo. Jeffery R. Galinovsky .oo0O O0oo.
( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
- -\ (-=-=-) /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\ (-=-=-) /-
\_) (_/ http://www-fes.fm.intel.com/~jgalinov/index.html\_) (_/
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 15:16:15 -0500
Subject: Stop the Religious battle
Besides being extremely off-topic, this discussion isn't even
interesting or original.
Quit it. You are acting like children.
johnw
-= John Wakelin =-
-= .sig copyright violator =-
-= TeamTNT - Member =-
------------------------------
From: Matthew Miller <rmiller@infinet.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:31:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: lighting increments
> On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Ty Halderman wrote:
> > Every 16. 0-16-32-...-240. 255 is the same as 240, but is easier to
> > recognize as "full on" and is the value a "lights on" linedef will set the
> > sector to.
Ehhhhhhhh...not *quite*. Although, yes, the Doom engine *does* use 16
separate palettes to display different light levels, the relation of
these 16 palettes to the 0-255 light values isn't quite as linear as you
suggest.
Try building a quickie level that consists of a long, long
hallway with you at one end, a light value of 255, and have the hallway
be of the `light smoothly pulsates' type. (You know, it slowly fades
down to darkness and back again.)
Note how light sort of dies away the farther away from you it is;
also that the pulsating light doesn't cause the entire hallway to get
brighter or darker as one; rather, different light levels (in the 0-255
range) seem to control how severely the darkening-with-distance effect is.
This isn't to say that, for instance, a sector of light value 255
won't look to be about twice as bright as a sector of light value 128,
but it *is* to say that two sectors of the same light value won't
necessarily seem to be of equal brightness. It depends on the size of
the room, and how far away from your view it is.
Amazing how convincing this effect is, considering how cockeyed it
sounds in print, isn't it? :)
Matthew Miller -- rmiller@infinet.com -- once again, speaking in language
as clear as mud
------------------------------
From: "Derek Callaghan, MIT Support" <DCALLAGH.oo2unix@au.oracle.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 08:18:13 EDT
Subject: Re: late quake release
- --Boundary-2559655-0-0
>>> >Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
>>> >sacrificed them. Personally, I have no problem with fighting against
>>> >demons
>>>
>>> Hmm. What would you call what they did to Christ?
>>
>>I was very careful about what I said. That wasn't an altar. :) And
>>that's the only theoretic counter-example anyway.
>Erm, that's not even remotely a counter-example, theoretic (sic) or
>otherwise. The Christians did not kill Christ.
Actually they did (if you believe such things as the bible). They had the
choice and chose for him to die.
- - - But I agree, its off topic. What Id uses, adds to the atmosphere, If you
dont like it then ......
If they really were the three musketeers, why did they keep using swords?
- --Boundary-2559655-0-0
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Date: 15 Nov 95 09:30:07
From:"Stephen Heaslip" <owner-doom-editing@nvg.unit.no>
To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
Subject: Re: late quake release
Reply-to: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
X-Orcl-Application: Return-Path: <doom-editing-owner@nvg.unit.no>
X-Sender: sheaslip@panix.com
X-Orcl-Application: Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Orcl-Application: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Mailer: <PC Eudora Version 1.4b22>
X-Orcl-Application: Sender: owner-doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
X-Orcl-Application: Precedence: bulk
>> >Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
>> >sacrificed them. Personally, I have no problem with fighting against
demons
>>
>> Hmm. What would you call what they did to Christ?
>
>I was very careful about what I said. That wasn't an altar. :) And
>that's the only theoretic counter-example anyway.
Erm, that's not even remotely a counter-example, theoretic (sic) or
otherwise. The Christians did not kill Christ.
Sorry to follow-up an off-topic thread.
- --
blue (Steve Heaslip)
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth
makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers."
- -Charles Peguy
- --Boundary-2559655-0-0--
------------------------------
From: jelson@conline.com (Jim Elson)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:37:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Debates
At 02:02 PM 11/15/95 -0500, Greg Lewis wrote:
> Religious debates are not on-topic for this mailing list. I'm sure
>almost every list member has strong feeling about the matter one way or
>the other (including myself), but either deal with them with private
>email or take the debate to a more, um, uncontrolled forum. Like
>alt.games.quake. :)
Here, here! I second the motion.
Fact is, if you really want to debate issues like this, please consider
taking it to alt.aethism. Both sides are hotly debated there and strong
commentary is welcomed.
- --H2HMud
And now, back to your regularly scheduled program of technical issues
concerning id games or "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a hat outta a rabbit"
============================================================================
H2HMud NorthAmerican DeathMatch Tourney
Promo/Marketing Coordinator for "The New Technology: Evilution"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jelson@conline.com; WEB page ==> http://www.conline.com/~jelson/index.html
------------------------------
From: Cursed <guaraldi@cs.bc.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:35:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: FW: late quake release
look, there were plenty of other people crucified before and after
Christ. crucifiction in this case is not just a holy icon, but an act of
unholy measures.
this whole thread doesn't belong here. this is doom-editing group. so
if this thread took the direction of whether or not to include graphics
that seem to infer religious blasphemy in the levels that we are
creating, then fine. but discussing the ethical issues of Quake doesn't
seem to fit that model.
/will
On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Flynn Kenneth SSgt USAFE/LGMMA wrote:
>
>
> I agree with Avatars statement regarding religion. I really think DOOM/DOOM
> ][ etc are the BEST games out, but the screenshots of Quake depict a
> Christ-Like figure crucified on the wall....Why? There are plenty of other
> ways to design a popular game. The fact that the graphical environment is
> so much better than in DOOM is enough in itself. id should at the very
> least have the basic respect for the creator of all on this earth...GOD and
> for religion in general. If it weren't for God and Jesus, we wouldn't be
> here at all and id wouldn't even exist...so respect is due.
>
> As for the delay in the release...we've waited this long...why not wait
> until it's done right.
>
>
> Ken Flynn
> flynn@kaiserslautern.netsurf.de
>
------------------------------
From: Mackey McCandlish <fsm3m@virginia.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:16:20 -0500
Subject: Re: late quake release
>Erm, that's not even remotely a counter-example, theoretic (sic) or
>otherwise. The Christians did not kill Christ.
>
>Sorry to follow-up an off-topic thread.
I've finally done it! I've effectively degraded doom-editing to
alt.games.quake!
/me ducks
-*Avatar*-
------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:03:48 -0500
Subject: Re: unholy imagery
This does seem to be on-topic, inasmuch as it relates to use of taste in game
design, so I'll comment.
>Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
>sacrificed them. Personally, I have no problem with fighting against demons
>and whatnot, but I raise an eyebrow when rather sacriligious and demonic
>pictures are strewn about for no reason whatsoever. Ironicly enough, I'm
>a very non-violent, religious person. I don't enjoy how violent DOOM is.
>The only reason I play is that the engine itself is very well done, and the
>game is well contructed. There is a good deal of tense, on the edge of
>your seat action.
I agree. Except I think Doom is appropriately violent, especially considering
the scenario. BUT, I don't like the imagery, even though it helps define and
flesh out that scenario. As a Christian, I'm averse to the use of pentagrams
and such as wall textures at all, but more so when overdone.
>Now if iD wants to press their evil imagry even farther, well... I can't
>stop them, and I'll probably play the game anyway, but I'd like the option
>to draw my own person line. What I'm suggesting is some options to use,
>ahem... "less disturbing" pictures.
Options are a good idea.
I think most people either understand or can't understand why people are
bothered by this. Sure, you can look at it as a presentation of an evil which
must be destroyed, and just go with the popular opinion "hey, I'll just trash
it all" (paraphrase from another letter). But there are plenty of people who
just don't want to see the stuff to begin with. There should be at least the
option of not having the stuff in there. Seeing that many games now have
violence-control options, I don't think this would be hard to do. It's not
censorship, but **voluntarily** cutting out what you never wanted to begin
with.
>> Well, I don't think the evil graphics will really sell the game, but I
>> definitely want to know I'm crushing evil bad guys, whether it's Dark
>> Bishops or CIA assassins.
>
>Okay, and I'll grant that there's a difference between fighting bad guys
>and being one.
I think that basically these types of graphics are put in for shock value;
they make you stop and think that the guy's you're shooting are really nasty.
True, but I also think that they are overdone. In Wolfenstein, pictures of
Hitler were appropriate, because that's just what you'd expect in a
stronghold of the Third Reich. The stuff in Doom was similar, albiet more
nauseating (and I don't mean the bodies- I'm still talking about all the
symbols and evil wall textures).
But if iD isn't going to draw a line, they should at least allow us the
option of drawing one ourselves. In Doom, I know where I am and who I'm
fighting- I don't need so much atmosphere to remind me. In Quake, we'll be
walking around in a castle- atmospheric enough as it is, from what I've seen-
in which decorations of that sort would at times just be out of place.
I'm all for atmosphere, but nonetheless I find too much of the wrong kind
sickening.
Lummox JR
not my own anyway
------------------------------
From: Ty Halderman <thldrmn@neosoft.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:44:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: lighting increments
At 03:31 PM 11/15/95 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Ty Halderman wrote:
>> > Every 16. 0-16-32-...-240. 255 is the same as 240, but is easier to
>> > recognize as "full on" and is the value a "lights on" linedef will set the
>> > sector to.
>
>Ehhhhhhhh...not *quite*. Although, yes, the Doom engine *does* use 16
>separate palettes to display different light levels, the relation of
>these 16 palettes to the 0-255 light values isn't quite as linear as you
>suggest.
The effect you're referring to, though, is the "light diminishing" effect,
not the sector brightness increment values. (Remember Blake Stone didn't
have that at first and then added it in version 2?) My statement is that
there is no difference whether you give a sector light values of 128, 129
... 143, you'll get the same effect for that sector at the same distance.
Are you saying that intermediate values are further taken into
consideration, or just that I can't predict the effective brightness of a
given "plateau" of light value without taking distance into account?
I agree with the latter effect, but I maintain that there are 16-wide
plateaus of values within which no difference occurs. Many people, for
example, use increments of 10 and are surprised that there seems to be no
difference between values of 130 and 140.
This is _much_ better than a religious battle :)
=- Ty Halderman <thldrmn@neosoft.com> -=
=- Originator of .sigs imitated -=
------------------------------
From: ccaird@islandnet.com (Colin Caird)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 16:58 PST
Subject: HCK screenshots + some info now on my site
Screenshots of HCK (HEXEN Construction Kit), created by Ben Morris, are now
available on my web site under the HEXEN section. My site's URL is
http://www.islandnet.com/~ccaird/doom/
You have to check this out! Finally HEXEN level editing will be fun and easy!
Colin
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----\
| Check out the most wicked DOOM, DOOM ][, Heretic and HEXEN page on the
WWW. |
| Also has a Quake section with all of the screenshots.
|
|
|
| WWW: http://www.islandnet.com/~ccaird/doom/
|
| E-mail: ccaird@islandnet.com
|
|
|
| Coming soon to this site: Virtual Reality Modeling Language (VRML) main
page! |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----/
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #484
**********************************
