Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 471
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #471
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Monday, 6 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 471
Re: TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
more hexenspec eratta
Hexen Editing
Re: TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
Re: errors in hexen spec
Re: Hexen Editing
Re: Hexin Registered
Re: Hexen Editing
Re: TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
Hexen Editing
HEXEN Scripts Proposal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yugo Nakai <ynakai@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 19:16:04 -0600
Subject: Re: TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
>But PWADs have always been meant to be distributed for free -- that's always
> been the DOOM spirit. But if anyone is going to sell them, it should be Id.
But why do you say so? Almost any software written today depends on other
software in order to function. Even Microsoft doesn't try to restrict
people from writing software that runs on its operating systems. Companies
exist whose sole purpose is writing add-on software to major applications
and operating systems. And it never hurts the companies that make the
original apps and OS's, since in order to use the add-ons, one must purchase
the original software. (Norton Utilities, Kai's Power Tools, Stacker, macro
programs, etc, are all examples.) In fact, add-ons actually increase the
value of the original products by creating features and functionality where
they didn't exist in the originals. Everyone benefits--iD, the WAD authors,
and the customers. What could be more reasonable? iD could actually hurt
themselves by heavily restricting the distribution of PWADs, since they have
become one of the biggest selling points of Doom/Doom II.
The only possible obstacle to a practice of selling PWADs is the attitude of
the users themselves. There are so many high-quality WADs available for
free that most users won't want to pay money over $5 for them; computer
users in general have historically been anti-payware, and particularly those
tethered to the Internet. But if the authors wish to try to earn money for
their work, they have the perfect right to try it.
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 23:14:46 EST
Subject: more hexenspec eratta
I'm just surprised that it has so much correct. I'm glad I get to pick
out the errors and puzzling bits. That's the easy part.
- --
The specs have the flechette and the disc of repulsion mixed up.
8000 is the flechette
10010 is the disc of repulsion.
(should be easy to verify by looking at map01. That's how I did it)
- --
What the hell is SE_wind? I'm trying to classify these things, and it's
been easy so far; monsters, keys, weapons, are all grouped; but this thing
is on its own and I don't know yet where it appears. Perhaps I'll grep
through a thing dump.
- --
The decorations are tagged /^Z(.?)_.+$/ (that's a perl regex, BTW, old
sed doesn't have +). What's the significance of $1 (the optional character
after the Z)?
ZZ is for puzzle objects
- --
And, if the named tombstones are items, how come they look like raised
floors? Perhaps they are polyobjs and they are constructed at level boot,
eh? I'll have to figure that out.
- --
Where's the Linux, Sparc, etc version of the script compiler? If you
don't have one, where's the source so I can compile one :) ?
- --
I'm calling it a night without finishing the PFME hexen.desc. The next
version of PFME will be called PFHD (Purple Frog Hexen Displayer) alpha 1
and will have laughably puny editing capability. I doubt anyone will be
able to create a working level with it, but it will provide the four Linux
and Sparc users out there with a way to examine levels.
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 95 23:50 PST
Subject: Hexen Editing
So like, any "thanks" for the Hexen Specs?
I mean .. i got lots of whinin' about "where is it?!" before I released
it, and not a word after - well, with the exception of one guy.
So c'mon, give me some respect!
- -/-
Ben Morris: Irritant at large bmorris@islandnet.com
SavanTech/Zerius/C++/Rush/DCK http://www.islandnet.com/~voltaire
Watch for DCK and HexenCK 3.0 real soon now, eh! Real soon! Yeah!
------------------------------
From: "John W. Anderson" <76132.3415@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: 05 Nov 95 04:16:07 EST
Subject: Re: TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
Yugo --
>>In fact, add-ons actually increase the value of the original products by
creating features and functionality where they didn't exist in the originals.
Everyone benefits--iD, the WAD authors, and the customers. What could be
more reasonable? iD could actually hurt themselves by heavily restricting
the distribution of PWADs, since they have become one of the biggest selling
points of Doom/Doom II.<<
I happen to agree with you here. The only reason (I believe) DOOM is still
popular is because of the PWADs. Who is still playing the original levels
anymore, except for the occasional DeathMatch?
The reason I don't believe they should be sold is because Id doesn't *want*
them to be sold. I merely respect Id's wishes in this. I've talked to Shawn
Green about this, and Id never imagined PWADs would eventually be massed into
collections and sold. These CD collections are making a lot of money, and not
a penny of it goes to Id *or* the authors. Id are very upset about this, but
the problem is that if they sue one person, they have to sue them all. It's a
legal mess at this point, since Id has never exercised their rights in the
matter.
>>But if the authors wish to try to earn money for their work, they have the
perfect right to try it.<<<
This is a philosophical matter. We can argue back and forth over who has
"legal rights" and get nowhere, because the precedent has not yet been set in
the courts. I have nothing against anyone wanting to be compensated for hard
work. Whether they have a "right" or not surely has not been determined.
This time a year ago there were arguments over the release of the DEU-ii
editor, which Raphael Quinet objected to, since it violated his request that
the DEU name not be used by anyone but him. His docs had stated you could
hack it all you liked, just don't call it DEU. Well, then it got to the point
where folks were saying that the DEU-ii editor was also a "pirate version" (I
think this note is still on Raphael's ftp site), since the authors had never
received a license agreement from Id. Everyone backed up Raphael (to a point)
because they felt a loyalty to him, even though others argued (and I agreed
on this point) that DEU was in the public domain and Raphael *had* no rights
to restrict others from hacking their own version and releasing it. The issue
died, and people used DEU-ii (until other DOOM II editors became available)
because Raphael never did release (and *still* hasn't) his version of DEU for
DOOM II. It all became rather academic after a while. The only other worthy
DEU editor I can think of is DETH (which I help Antony Burden with), and it's
called DETH because Raphael doesn't want it called DEU<g>. We respect his
wishes in that regard. DETH also retains the tradition of being freeware.
Regardless, my position on the PWAD issue stems from a loyalty to Id. They
gave us the game, they let us create, distribute, and play PWADs to our
heart's content -- but they don't want us selling them. Legal or not, I'm on
their side.
- - John
- -----------------------------------
- - John W. Anderson
[dr_sleep@cis.compuserve.com]
------------------------------
From: "John W. Anderson" <76132.3415@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: 05 Nov 95 04:33:56 EST
Subject: Re: errors in hexen spec
Ben --
As I said in a private note, and I'll repeat here: Great job on the specs!
:)
- - John
- -----------
- - John W. Anderson
dr_sleep@cis.compuserve.com
------------------------------
From: mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 95 09:30:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Hexen Editing
Thanks for the specs.
My turn. Will somebody thank me for the work I've done?
>
> So like, any "thanks" for the Hexen Specs?
>
> I mean .. i got lots of whinin' about "where is it?!" before I released
> it, and not a word after - well, with the exception of one guy.
>
> So c'mon, give me some respect!
>
Mark Mathews mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us TEAM OS/2, TEAM DEU, TEAM WOLF3D
Are you using DEU, WARM or DEUTEX for DOOM? WHY NOT??
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 11:52:27 EST
Subject: Re: Hexin Registered
arizona@harpo.wh.att.com (Peter A Dempsey) ,in message <9511012214.AA21339@harp
o.wh.att.com>, wrote:
> > I have two machines with the registered version now, so I can find
> > all the artifacts and monsters and deathmatch placement
>
> Can you tell us (the doom editing list) if any of the bugs
> people have pointed out in the demo (beta) version have been
> fixed in the registered version?
Well, it looks like the bugs where you could lower the floor of 7portals too
much in deathmatch are gone (the doors start closed). I have not had the
registered game bail with a bad_vdrawpatch ever.
However, I've discovered a new class of errors. When I try to play
deathmatch between a random player and a fighter player the random player gets
consistently get dumped out of the game. I have also experienced dumps
between random/random (over IPX and null modem) and fighter/fighter (null
modem, haven't tried IPX). The IPX games explicitly say consistency error.
This really sucks.
I want patches soon, and I also want a new version of the media when they've
accumulated enough patches.
In the "annoying, but probably not a bug" category, Arc of Death is almost
useless in close quarters because it will ground itself in a wall if the
monster backs into one.
I have defeated Korax as a mage, and most of the game I was using the
sapphire wand. Its instantaneous fire exposes you to less fire (from
slaughtars) than shards, and arc is often useless at long range. Hell, I
think I put the fatal shot in Korax using the wand. I still had 8 kraters
when I was done. I didn't realize that was the end or I'd have mowed him down
with the bloodscourge. I never got to see Korax more than 6 pixels tall, but
when I scan through the sprites with PFME, surprise, he looks like an Alien
with extra arms :)
I miss the days of filling barons full of buckshot.
7portals is one of the better levels for deathmatch. I haven't had a chance
to evaluate the rest of them much, but Darkmere sucks. My brother and I died
from fatal falls more than from each other. Super-lame.
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 10:41 PST
Subject: Re: Hexen Editing
> > I mean .. i got lots of whinin' about "where is it?!" before I released
> > it, and not a word after - well, with the exception of one guy.
>
> oh. alright. 'thanks'. now get on with it and relase 1.0. especially
> all those scripts you got from chris ;)
>
> </j>
If i got scripts from chris, i've lost them already :) maybe they're
coming in the package from Raven, whenever that gets here..
- - ben
(yeah, i'll release them!)
- -/-
Ben Morris: Irritant at large bmorris@islandnet.com
SavanTech/Zerius/C++/Rush/DCK http://www.islandnet.com/~voltaire
Watch for DCK and HexenCK 3.0 real soon now, eh! Real soon! Yeah!
------------------------------
From: Fairfax Shield McCandlish <fsm3m@fermi.clas.virginia.edu>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 17:12:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: TeamTNT and TNT:Evilution
According to John W. Anderson:
>
> I happen to agree with you here. The only reason (I believe) DOOM is still
> popular is because of the PWADs. Who is still playing the original levels
> anymore, except for the occasional DeathMatch?
Heh, I play map01 as much if not more than any pwads,
but that's just me. I sure spend an equalt time MAKING levels.
> collections and sold. These CD collections are making a lot of money, and not
> a penny of it goes to Id *or* the authors. Id are very upset about this, but
Uh.. D!Zone offered money to id and they didn't take
it. That's why they're upset..
> the problem is that if they sue one person, they have to sue them all. It's a
> legal mess at this point, since Id has never exercised their rights in the
> matter.
Er, id has been sueing several of the companies, but
the only thing they can sue for is the use of id art on the
game boxes. They didn't register the word DOOM so they can't
sue for that, tho I believe the next MegaDOOM collection won't
use the word DOOM anyway (nice guys!). In the liscense
agreement in DOOM, id inadvertedly gave away ownershit of pwads
to the users, so they can't restrict sale of pwads.
> work. Whether they have a "right" or not surely has not been determined.
Hmm. Several companies seem to think so. Sillysft used
Marathon to simulate what the graphics look like in his latest
Zone product, and H!Zone contains levels made completely by
authors paid to make levels for it. He's just making sure id
art is never on the box.
> DOOM II. It all became rather academic after a while. The only other worthy
> DEU editor I can think of is DETH (which I help Antony Burden with), and it's
> called DETH because Raphael doesn't want it called DEU<g>. We respect his
> wishes in that regard. DETH also retains the tradition of being freeware.
Yeah DETH is the best.
-*Avatar*-
------------------------------
From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 18:11:00 -0500
Subject: Hexen Editing
DO>So like, any "thanks" for the Hexen Specs?
DO>I mean .. i got lots of whinin' about "where is it?!" before I released
DO>it, and not a word after - well, with the exception of one guy.
DO>So c'mon, give me some respect!
It's only been ONE DAY, bud, calm down! :). I will say that you did
a kick-tushie job, though. My only request for a future version would
be some cool script examples, but I'm sure we'll all be up to our
necks in those soon enough...
matt tag
- ---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I am Locutus of Borg. Do you have any Grey Poupon?
_ _ ---------------------------------------------------------------
|_|_| PC-OHIO PCBoard OIS pcohio.com HST 16.8: 216-381-3320
|_|_| The Best BBS in America Cleveland, OH V34+ 33.6: 216-691-3030
---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 18:07:00 -0500
Subject: HEXEN Scripts Proposal
DO>DO> That means for the first time the information in the WAD file isn't
DO>DO> enough for later WAD editing sessions.
DO>I haven't looked at the specs yet, but this seems almost necessary for
DO>editors to support. Let's try to come up with a standard syntax so
DO>we can continue to allow our users to switch between the editors they
DO>like for features they prefer in each.
Never mind my babbling here: now that I've read the specs, it's obvious
that the proposed SCRIPTS lump would just include the script itself.
Duh.
matt tag
- ---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I still miss my ex-wife, but my aim is getting better
_ _ ---------------------------------------------------------------
|_|_| PC-OHIO PCBoard OIS pcohio.com HST 16.8: 216-381-3320
|_|_| The Best BBS in America Cleveland, OH V34+ 33.6: 216-691-3030
---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #471
**********************************
