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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 481
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #481
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Tuesday, 14 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 481
Re: Quake Scripting Language
Re: Stand Alone Node builder
Can you help?
Spec question on Hexen Map 01
Re: Hexen information II
Quake, Wintex, Time
Re: late quake release
Re: Can you help?
lighting increments
WEEKLY REMINDER : Beginner's Questions
Re: Spec question on Hexen Map 01
Re: late quake release
Re: lighting increments
Re: Re: Stand Alone Node builder
Re: late quake release
[none]
Re: lighting increments
Re: unholy imagery
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jbrown@odont.com (Morphius)
Date: 13 Nov 1995 16:50:38 PDT
Subject: Re: Quake Scripting Language
guys, I wasn't tring to be rude....i just wanted to know what happened.
------------------------------
From: jbrown@odont.com (Morphius)
Date: 13 Nov 1995 16:55:26 PDT
Subject: Re: Stand Alone Node builder
IS THERE A HEXEN EDITOR OUT YET...(well you lazy programers why don't
you do something besides listening to me complain you should be done by
now...that was a joke okay...i learned my lesson...or something)?
------------------------------
From: AFree120@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:34:00 -0500
Subject: Can you help?
This probably isn't tech enough for this group but...
I patched a friends doom 1 version 1.1 up to ultimate doom. All went well,
but unlike with my doom patching which ran great--his started to load
Ultimate doom and stopped with error--demo from different game version. How
can I change the demo? Can I use New Wad Tool? If so how? I can record a demo
and play it but how do I make a IWAD change in his doom so it will get past
this? thanks!
------------------------------
From: mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 17:07:29 -0500
Subject: Spec question on Hexen Map 01
I noticed on Hexen Map 1 that thing types PO_StartSpot_Crash and PO_Anchor
are using the thing angle as tags. Is that right? What does this mean?
Is the thing angle used by the scripts? How should the editors display this
info?
Anybody notice anything else on the maps?
Mark Mathews mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us TEAM OS/2, TEAM DEU, TEAM WOLF3D
Are you using DEU, WARM or DEUTEX for DOOM? WHY NOT??
------------------------------
From: mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 17:22:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Hexen information II
> I am nearing a release of my editor (WadAuthor) with Hexen support, but I
> need a couple of pieces of information if anyone can supply them.
So am I with DEU 5.3 for OS/2.
>
> 1) Can anyone tell me what the arguments for the Floor_Waggle special are?
> 2) Can anyone tell me how to modify my node-building code to support the
> polyobject stuff?
3) What info does a single wad need to run properly with Hexen?
Mark Mathews mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us TEAM OS/2, TEAM DEU, TEAM WOLF3D
Are you using DEU, WARM or DEUTEX for DOOM? WHY NOT??
------------------------------
From: misc335@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 11:13:30 +1300
Subject: Quake, Wintex, Time
Hello again!
I must be the only person on this planet celebrating the delay of Quake :)
(Any idea how long it's been delayed for BTW? I'm hoping for march like
the doomsayers predict)
It means Quake should arrive around about the same time as I clear up all
my current projects so being able to do a conversion is much more likely.
Anyway, I really just want to let you know I recently got Wintex 4.0, and
it is _very_ impressive, (I recently also got win95 :) great work!
(Though I havn't had time to use it but briefly, hopefully first
impressions are not deceptive :)
Oh - the next edition of "Tricks of the Doom programming Guru's", I
assume will have an up-to-date version of wintex, but I'm looking at
doing a graphics library for the CD and was wondering if you expect to
add GIF compatibility to Wintex? (as Dmgraph only reads GIF and PPM)
Also - I havn't run into the file specs for .DXF (in case you're after
them) but havn't really had time to look, I'll keep an eye out though.
That's just about all...
Seeya
Justin
------------------------------
From: Mackey McCandlish <fsm3m@virginia.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:26:19 -0500
Subject: Re: late quake release
>Besides id wanting this to top doom, it's not like this should be that bad.
I >mean come on people, these are great games, but play them in your spare
time >instead of all the time, and they will last you more then days! ; )
>
I think id is up to their armpits in dealing with the following
problems:
Making melee combat work with current input devices.
Making magic and hammers as cool as guns were.
Minor matters of taste.
Let's look at the first problem. We all know one of the greatest
parts of DOOM was the ease and intuitiveness of controls. Newbies could jump
right in and play off the preset keys while advanced players could circle
strafe and flick with ease with their mice. This is all good and well and
quite possible in Quake, but there's two more variables in the equation now.
Looking up and down, and controlling your melee weapon.
Looking up and down isn't a huge problem. Terminator Future Shock
did it passably well: You press up, you look up, press down and, well, you
look down. Problem with that? Well, I don't move my mouse on a straight
horizontal line when I turn (rather I twist my wrist) so everytime I flicked
out a 180 I got the after effect of looking at the sky or my toes. There's
rumors of Quake using a mouse button to counter this sounds like a good shot
(I think us Microsoft Mouse'ers should all go buy go logitech 3 button mice
in the near future). You wouldn't have to deal with icky digital keyboard
keys like in Heretic and you'd also not have to worry about lining up with
the horizon everytime you turned.
Controlling weapons is much more complex an issue. It's all good and
well if you're just using point and click weapons like in DOOM, but
apparently melee weapons will now be a big deal. Not to cut on any Hexen
fans, but obviously hand to hand combat in DOOM doesn't touch the
effectiveness (and fun?) of the projectile and instant hit weapons. Although
the full 3d environment will do a good deal to counter this problem
(Assuming they treat your melee weapons as true objects in the environment
that actually get swung around, not a bitmap only your player sees) you'll
still be limited to only a single attack with each weapon using the current
control scheme, whereas to really control a close up weapon you need to be
able to swing it around with true analog control, not clicking. Perhaps they
could use the up/down axis that would be spared by using a button to look
up/down, but then you'd only be gaining one axis of (albeit analog) control
for your weapon and you wouldn't be able to look up/down while attacking. If
Quake doesn't use analog weapon control then you're severly limited in your
melee interaction as Hexen demonstrated. On the other hand, there's the
rumor started by Shawn Green that you won't be able to flick in Quake, so
it's possible that your weapon control will be implemented with your slowed
turning (to do this with flicking possible would have had some strange after
effects if you upped yer mouse sensitivity and did a 720 while attacking,
I'd imagine). Coupled with the rumor Romero started when he said you'll run
slower in Quake and that the mouse will practically be required, I can see
this as a possibility, although I don't know how much I like it.
Another minor (in my opinion) problem that often springs up in Quake
discussions on irc and alt.games.quake is the pro-guns anti-magic thread. If
any company can prove a medieval theme is viable, it's id, but it can't be
easy. I think it's good that id has chosen not to retrace its past steps to
success (to some extent) but can they really deliver the action and
adrenaline DOOM garnered with its shotgun and rocket launcher? I've talked
to few people who prefer to toss a fireball than lob a rocket, but besides,
a medieval theme introduces other problems: How do you convincingly offer
conventional gameplay-weapons like projectile weapons? Heretic and Hexen
took the approach of offering undefinable weird looking weapons that could
therefore inexplicably throw out any projectile weapons they liked. This may
be part of the reason people prefer conventional weapons, they feel they can
believe them. Romero has stated that Quake will beat this by using
believable weapons too, but considering he's stated Quake uses only a Hammer
and "attack artifacts" that modify it into doing other things (such as
tossing fireballs) or virtually anything else, it's questionable how
believable these weapons will be (although rumors abound of id scrapping
having just the hammer and going with multiple weapons OR having never been
serious about just a hammer all along). Although what a weapon is percieved
to be matters little for gameplay, which is god, it does go far for
fashioning the environment, which is important for those occasional one
player games when ifrag is empty.
Lastly, there's the little matter of taste, specifically with id's
evil fetish. Nobody has a problem with carnage, but do we really need
textures mocking religious figures? Naturally the picks we've seen are out
of context, but pasting up some demonic texture and pentagrams is getting
tired, and now specific religious flaunts (in response to which American
Mcgee said "Jesus is a myth, you didn't know that?") seems to serve no
purpose other than to appeal to the AOL 31337 warez puppies and turn off a
great deal of people who take religion seriously. Will id really need to
depend on evil graphics to sell the game (rather than some lovable gore and
lots of game play like in DOOM)?
The reason I bring up these points in relation to the delay of Quake
is that up until now, none of these issues have been dealt with (at least
interviews and magazine articles by people who have played Quake haven't
noted that the controls were finished) and it may be in finalizing and
dealing with these issues, now that they're more in the design stage than
the building-the-tools stage, that has caused the delay.
-*Avatar*-
Check out http://fermi.clas.virginia.edu/~fsm3m. Cool game related stuff.
-*The Avatar*-
_Avatar_ on IRC. Mackey McCandlish.
http://www.widomaker.com./~avatar
(Nifty pics of DMF there, too).
ftp: ftp.widomaker.com in pub/avatar
The key to ONE MUST FALL is knowing who the 17 hit combos
work on..
DOOM MUST FALL IS OUT! Get it from my home page or ftp site!
------------------------------
From: Aragorn! <bsc4074@hades.dcs.napier.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 13:08:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Can you help?
On Mon, 13 Nov 1995 AFree120@AOL.COM wrote:
> This probably isn't tech enough for this group but...
> I patched a friends doom 1 version 1.1 up to ultimate doom. All went well,
> but unlike with my doom patching which ran great--his started to load
> Ultimate doom and stopped with error--demo from different game version. How
> can I change the demo? Can I use New Wad Tool? If so how? I can record a demo
> and play it but how do I make a IWAD change in his doom so it will get past
> this? thanks!
>
I thought that the patch was for 1.9 to Ultimate only.
Perhaps you should have updated it to 1.9 first. Although the patch
shouldn't have actually worked on 1.1 in the 1st place.
I think deu will let you insert a .lmp file into the wad, i'm not too
sure cos i don't use deu much.
------------------------------------------------------------------
| So remember when your feeling very small and insecure |
| How amazingly unlikely is your birth |
| And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space |
| Because there's bugger all down here on Earth. |
| |
| Aragorn! ,,, email: bsc4074@dcs.napier.ac.uk |
| (o o) http://www.dcs.napier.ac.uk/~bsc4074 |
------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: "Gregg J. Anderson" <gander@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 07:54:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: lighting increments
Does anyone know the exact increments for lighting?
Is it every 8 from 0 to 255, giving 32 increments, or have I always
been wrong on this? (0-8-16-24...)
Sometimes it seems it just does not want to work that way...
Happy Hacking,
=Gregg=
_____________________________________________________________________________
Gregg J. Anderson =o= gander@krypton.mankato.msus.edu
Mankato State University =o= gander@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Mankato, MN USA =o= Flames: Barney@purple.dino.CIA.gov
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 10:15:08 -0500
Subject: WEEKLY REMINDER : Beginner's Questions
This message is being posted at the request of the list's caretakers.
In this you will find: the purpose of this list, how to get answers
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====================================================================
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------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:04:17 EST
Subject: Re: Spec question on Hexen Map 01
mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us ,in message <9511140118.AA0111@localhost>, wrote:
> I noticed on Hexen Map 1 that thing types PO_StartSpot_Crash and PO_Anchor
> are using the thing angle as tags. Is that right? What does this mean?
Yes. This is mentioned in Ben Morris's specs.
> Is the thing angle used by the scripts? How should the editors display this
> info?
The thing angle IS the polyobject number.
> Anybody notice anything else on the maps?
Yeah. I hate switches hidden behind trees.
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:04:09 EST
Subject: Re: late quake release
Mackey McCandlish <fsm3m@virginia.edu> ,in message <199511132126.QAA125752@ferm
i.clas.Virginia.EDU>, wrote:
> Another minor (in my opinion) problem that often springs up in Quake
> discussions on irc and alt.games.quake is the pro-guns anti-magic thread. If
Yeah. Aliens 2 was so much more enjoyable than Conan the Barbarian.
I find myself laughing at Tank Police, whereas Lodoss Wars is merely OK.
To make a hack and slash enjoyable you have to have to add slapstick
gore ala my lightning strike proposal. The heads flying off stalkers are
cool, but happen so fast you don't see them until they've splashed into
the water. The shields and swords of the centaurs give a good bounce
though. Now if they could add some death sequences that would make a
Japanese stuntman proud, they would have a killer game.
> Lastly, there's the little matter of taste, specifically with id's
> evil fetish. Nobody has a problem with carnage, but do we really need
> textures mocking religious figures?
Um, Thulsa Duum (or however you spell his name) had followers wearing
white robes and the candles and shit. Anyone disagree that he was evil?
Hell, considering the history of Christianity (the Crusades, the
Inquisition, the assorted right-wing groups trying to annihilate the First
Amendment on-line) you could quite believably label certain factions as
evil.
Why would an evil religion look phenomenally different from a good
religion?
> depend on evil graphics to sell the game (rather than some lovable gore and
> lots of game play like in DOOM)?
Well, I don't think the evil graphics will really sell the game, but I
definitely want to know I'm crushing evil bad guys, whether it's Dark
Bishops or CIA assassins.
------------------------------
From: thekid@ornews.intel.com (Brian Kidby)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 08:36:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: lighting increments
>
>
> Does anyone know the exact increments for lighting?
> Is it every 8 from 0 to 255, giving 32 increments, or have I always
> been wrong on this? (0-8-16-24...)
> Sometimes it seems it just does not want to work that way...
>
It's 0 to 255, in increments of 16. This provides 16 different light-
levels.
Brian
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kid My thoughts and actions are strictly my own.
thekid@ornews.intel.com Do not hold my employers responsible.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Jim Wraith <jim@kildare.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 07:53:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Stand Alone Node builder
In your message dated Monday 13, November 1995 you wrote :
>
> IS THERE A HEXEN EDITOR OUT YET...(well you lazy programers why don't
> you do something besides listening to me complain you should be done by
> now...that was a joke okay...i learned my lesson...or something)?
>
Yes, there are quite a few.
------------------------------
From: Ted Vessenes <tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 12:50:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: late quake release
> > Lastly, there's the little matter of taste, specifically with id's
> > evil fetish. Nobody has a problem with carnage, but do we really need
> > textures mocking religious figures?
>
> Um, Thulsa Duum (or however you spell his name) had followers wearing
> white robes and the candles and shit. Anyone disagree that he was evil?
> Hell, considering the history of Christianity (the Crusades, the
> Inquisition, the assorted right-wing groups trying to annihilate the First
> Amendment on-line) you could quite believably label certain factions as
> evil.
>
> Why would an evil religion look phenomenally different from a good
> religion?
Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
sacrificed them. Personally, I have no problem with fighting against demons
and whatnot, but I raise an eyebrow when rather sacriligious and demonic
pictures are strewn about for no reason whatsoever. Ironicly enough, I'm
a very non-violent, religious person. I don't enjoy how violent DOOM is.
The only reason I play is that the engine itself is very well done, and the
game is well contructed. There is a good deal of tense, on the edge of
your seat action.
Now if iD wants to press their evil imagry even farther, well... I can't
stop them, and I'll probably play the game anyway, but I'd like the option
to draw my own person line. What I'm suggesting is some options to use,
ahem... "less disturbing" pictures.
> Well, I don't think the evil graphics will really sell the game, but I
> definitely want to know I'm crushing evil bad guys, whether it's Dark
> Bishops or CIA assassins.
Okay, and I'll grant that there's a difference between fighting bad guys
and being one.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
| "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tjvessen@midway. | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
uchicago.edu | -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: edwin@worldnet.net (Razafi Edwin)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:29:55 +0100
Subject: [none]
I' would to now if quake will be sell with a "technical book" with
-editing levels informations.
-3d bsp trees informations.
-monsters IA informations.
-...
Could anyone send me a algo of nodes building ?
thanks
Ed"209"win
****************************************************
RAZAFI EDWIN
-----------------------
E-mail:edwin@worldnet.net
****************************************************
------------------------------
From: Ty Halderman <thldrmn@neosoft.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 14:06:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: lighting increments
At 07:54 AM 11/14/95 -0600, Gregg J. Anderson wrote:
>
>Does anyone know the exact increments for lighting?
>Is it every 8 from 0 to 255, giving 32 increments, or have I always
>been wrong on this? (0-8-16-24...)
>Sometimes it seems it just does not want to work that way...
Every 16. 0-16-32-...-240. 255 is the same as 240, but is easier to
recognize as "full on" and is the value a "lights on" linedef will set the
sector to. I believe this is a RTF(Faq) item, but maybe not :)
=- Ty Halderman <thldrmn@neosoft.com> -=
=- Originator of .sigs imitated -=
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 14:49:41 EST
Subject: Re: unholy imagery
Ted Vessenes <tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu> ,in message <199511141850.MAA08036@
woodlawn.uchicago.edu>, wrote:
> > Why would an evil religion look phenomenally different from a good
> > religion?
>
> Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
> sacrificed them.
Good point. They just busted heretic's kneecaps in order to extract a
confession and save the poor sinner's soul; heck, governments do that today
(except without the soul excuse). Christians only did that back when the
world was quite a bit more barbaric on the surface.
> Personally, I have no problem with fighting against demons
> and whatnot, but I raise an eyebrow when rather sacriligious and demonic
> pictures are strewn about for no reason whatsoever.
Atmosphere? I would expect to find shitloads of unholy imagery in the
strongholds of an evil demigod. And then I'd trash it >:)
> Now if iD wants to press their evil imagry even farther, well... I can't
> stop them, and I'll probably play the game anyway, but I'd like the option
> to draw my own person line. What I'm suggesting is some options to use,
> ahem... "less disturbing" pictures.
Buy the German version? :)
Maybe some of the action in the next game should be the consecration of holy
water and pouring it over an unholy altar which causes the whole place to go
to hell (or heaven?) and bring down the ceiling.
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #481
**********************************
