Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 483
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #483
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Wednesday, 15 November 1995 Volume 01 : Number 483
Re: Hexen Editing
Re: Hexen information II
Re: Late Quake release
Hexen spec discovery
Re: late quake release
Re: unholy imagery
Re: lighting increments
FW: late quake release
Re: Quake, Wintex, Time - Opps!
RE: Quake Scripting Language
Re: OFFSUB: legal question
Re: FW: late quake release
Re: late quake release
Re: Hexen Editing
Re: FW: late quake release
Re: late quake release
Re: FW: late quake release
Re: FW: late quake release
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: aconnor@zeta.org.au (Anthony Connor)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:30:03 +1100
Subject: Re: Hexen Editing
Hi ya,
As you were saying :
>I've written not a line, since I've been working on DCK (though I wonder
>if it's worth it, what with Win95-runs-doom-and-doom-editors-and-dck-
>won't-even-run-in-a-'95-shell.)
>
>1.0 will be out sometime soon .. of the specs, that is.
>
>ttyl,
>ben
>-/-
> Ben Morris: Irritant at large bmorris@islandnet.com
I don't have Win 95, and I am hanging out for the new Version of DCK.
So Please just do it anyway. I promise I will use it.
AXE
Check out my DOOM 2 Levels. : AXE1, AXE2, AXE2, AXE4, AXE5.
And tell me what you think.
aconnor@zeta.org.au
------------------------------
From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 19:32:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Hexen information II
DO>3) What info does a single wad need to run properly with Hexen?
Everything a Doom/D2/Heretic level needed, and a BEHAVIOR resource.
I have successfully played a copy of MAP01 w/ one creature changed using
this type of WAD.
matt tag
- ---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Taxation WITH representation isn't so hot either
_ _ ---------------------------------------------------------------
|_|_| PC-OHIO PCBoard OIS pcohio.com HST 16.8: 216-381-3320
|_|_| The Best BBS in America Cleveland, OH V34+ 33.6: 216-691-3030
---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Matthew Miller <rmiller@infinet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 19:54:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Late Quake release
On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Romero wrote:
> Well, everything you think Quake is, isn't.
...
> Rest assured that pretty much everything you've heard about Quake regarding
> specifics such as story, characters, etc. is just wrong.
...
> Even the name 'Quake' is
> merely the project codename.
Yeah? So? Is this supposed to be a surprise? I'm sure I'm not the only
one who's seen hyper-super-early screen shots of Doom, and those were REAL
different from what we finally got!
That a game's concept, look, or gameplay (and probably all of
these!) change drastically is, IMHO at least, a given.
But I have confidence that whatever Quake turns out to be, will be
terrific. Why shouldn't I, given this company's track record? :)
Matthew Miller -- rmiller@infinet.com
------------------------------
From: mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 01:27:44 -0500
Subject: Hexen spec discovery
Maybe I didn't read the specs carefully. But while I was using DEU PM
on Map 01 of Hexen; I noticed the info in the linedef arg did not point to
the right sector. Now I know why. Hexen still uses the sector tag but
assigns it a value of 10. And if the linedef tag (sector id)
is 77; then look for a sector with the tag of 87 (not 77)!!
Assign all sector tags a value of 10. WHY???
Set lindef arg[0] = 77, sector tag = 77 + 10. Now my editor works properly.
Mark Mathews mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us TEAM OS/2, TEAM DEU, TEAM WOLF3D
Are you using DEU, WARM or DEUTEX for DOOM? WHY NOT??
------------------------------
From: Ted Vessenes <tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:10:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: late quake release
> >Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
> >sacrificed them. Personally, I have no problem with fighting against demons
>
> Hmm. What would you call what they did to Christ?
I was very careful about what I said. That wasn't an altar. :) And
that's the only theoretic counter-example anyway.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
| "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tjvessen@midway. | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
uchicago.edu | -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: jelson@conline.com (Jim Elson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:03:55 -0600
Subject: Re: unholy imagery
At 02:49 PM 11/14/95 EST, doom-editing@nvg.unit.no wrote:
>Ted Vessenes <tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu> ,in message <199511141850.MAA08036@
> woodlawn.uchicago.edu>, wrote:
>
>> > Why would an evil religion look phenomenally different from a good
>> > religion?
>>
>> Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
>> sacrificed them.
>
> Good point. They just busted heretic's kneecaps in order to extract a
>confession and save the poor sinner's soul; heck, governments do that today
>(except without the soul excuse). Christians only did that back when the
>world was quite a bit more barbaric on the surface.
Heh, just read Nietzsche's _On The Genealogy of Morals_ <evil grin> or
_The AntiChrist_
- --H2HMud
============================================================================
H2HMud NorthAmerican DeathMatch Tourney
Promo/Marketing Coordinator for "The New Technology: Evilution"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jelson@conline.com; WEB page ==> http://www.conline.com/~jelson/index.html
------------------------------
From: "Gregg J. Anderson" <gander@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:59:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: lighting increments
On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Ty Halderman wrote:
>
> Every 16. 0-16-32-...-240. 255 is the same as 240, but is easier to
> recognize as "full on" and is the value a "lights on" linedef will set the
> sector to. I believe this is a RTF(Faq) item, but maybe not :)
>
Not in the FAQ I last read that I recall... but then again, I admit I
didn't double-check the latest ones. I got some wrong information
way back in the beginning, and never realized I had been in error all
this time. :-) Thanks for the info to all who responded.
A note to editor authors on this... how about adding to the lighting
prompts to also accept values 1-16 on your next update?
(or a hotkey to increment the values automatically up or down)
It seems mundane to have to keep a scrap of paper with the values next to
a $2500 computer that could easily be doing that division for me... :-)
=Gregg=
_____________________________________________________________________________
Gregg J. Anderson =o= gander@krypton.mankato.msus.edu
Mankato State University =o= gander@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Mankato, MN USA =o= Flames: Barney@purple.dino.CIA.gov
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Flynn Kenneth SSgt USAFE/LGMMA <flynnk@usafe5.ramstein.af.mil>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 08:57:00 PST
Subject: FW: late quake release
I agree with Avatars statement regarding religion. I really think DOOM/DOOM
][ etc are the BEST games out, but the screenshots of Quake depict a
Christ-Like figure crucified on the wall....Why? There are plenty of other
ways to design a popular game. The fact that the graphical environment is
so much better than in DOOM is enough in itself. id should at the very
least have the basic respect for the creator of all on this earth...GOD and
for religion in general. If it weren't for God and Jesus, we wouldn't be
here at all and id wouldn't even exist...so respect is due.
As for the delay in the release...we've waited this long...why not wait
until it's done right.
Ken Flynn
flynn@kaiserslautern.netsurf.de
----------
From: doom-editing-owner
To: doom-editing
Subject: Re: late quake release
Date: Monday, November 13, 1995 4:26PM
>Besides id wanting this to top doom, it's not like this should be that bad.
I >mean come on people, these are great games, but play them in your spare
time >instead of all the time, and they will last you more then days! ; )
>
I think id is up to their armpits in dealing with the following
problems:
Making melee combat work with current input devices.
Making magic and hammers as cool as guns were.
Minor matters of taste.
Let's look at the first problem. We all know one of the greatest
parts of DOOM was the ease and intuitiveness of controls. Newbies could jump
right in and play off the preset keys while advanced players could circle
strafe and flick with ease with their mice. This is all good and well and
quite possible in Quake, but there's two more variables in the equation now.
Looking up and down, and controlling your melee weapon.
Looking up and down isn't a huge problem. Terminator Future Shock
did it passably well: You press up, you look up, press down and, well, you
look down. Problem with that? Well, I don't move my mouse on a straight
horizontal line when I turn (rather I twist my wrist) so everytime I flicked
out a 180 I got the after effect of looking at the sky or my toes. There's
rumors of Quake using a mouse button to counter this sounds like a good shot
(I think us Microsoft Mouse'ers should all go buy go logitech 3 button mice
in the near future). You wouldn't have to deal with icky digital keyboard
keys like in Heretic and you'd also not have to worry about lining up with
the horizon everytime you turned.
Controlling weapons is much more complex an issue. It's all good and
well if you're just using point and click weapons like in DOOM, but
apparently melee weapons will now be a big deal. Not to cut on any Hexen
fans, but obviously hand to hand combat in DOOM doesn't touch the
effectiveness (and fun?) of the projectile and instant hit weapons. Although
the full 3d environment will do a good deal to counter this problem
(Assuming they treat your melee weapons as true objects in the environment
that actually get swung around, not a bitmap only your player sees) you'll
still be limited to only a single attack with each weapon using the current
control scheme, whereas to really control a close up weapon you need to be
able to swing it around with true analog control, not clicking. Perhaps they
could use the up/down axis that would be spared by using a button to look
up/down, but then you'd only be gaining one axis of (albeit analog) control
for your weapon and you wouldn't be able to look up/down while attacking. If
Quake doesn't use analog weapon control then you're severly limited in your
melee interaction as Hexen demonstrated. On the other hand, there's the
rumor started by Shawn Green that you won't be able to flick in Quake, so
it's possible that your weapon control will be implemented with your slowed
turning (to do this with flicking possible would have had some strange after
effects if you upped yer mouse sensitivity and did a 720 while attacking,
I'd imagine). Coupled with the rumor Romero started when he said you'll run
slower in Quake and that the mouse will practically be required, I can see
this as a possibility, although I don't know how much I like it.
Another minor (in my opinion) problem that often springs up in Quake
discussions on irc and alt.games.quake is the pro-guns anti-magic thread. If
any company can prove a medieval theme is viable, it's id, but it can't be
easy. I think it's good that id has chosen not to retrace its past steps to
success (to some extent) but can they really deliver the action and
adrenaline DOOM garnered with its shotgun and rocket launcher? I've talked
to few people who prefer to toss a fireball than lob a rocket, but besides,
a medieval theme introduces other problems: How do you convincingly offer
conventional gameplay-weapons like projectile weapons? Heretic and Hexen
took the approach of offering undefinable weird looking weapons that could
therefore inexplicably throw out any projectile weapons they liked. This may
be part of the reason people prefer conventional weapons, they feel they can
believe them. Romero has stated that Quake will beat this by using
believable weapons too, but considering he's stated Quake uses only a Hammer
and "attack artifacts" that modify it into doing other things (such as
tossing fireballs) or virtually anything else, it's questionable how
believable these weapons will be (although rumors abound of id scrapping
having just the hammer and going with multiple weapons OR having never been
serious about just a hammer all along). Although what a weapon is percieved
to be matters little for gameplay, which is god, it does go far for
fashioning the environment, which is important for those occasional one
player games when ifrag is empty.
Lastly, there's the little matter of taste, specifically with id's
evil fetish. Nobody has a problem with carnage, but do we really need
textures mocking religious figures? Naturally the picks we've seen are out
of context, but pasting up some demonic texture and pentagrams is getting
tired, and now specific religious flaunts (in response to which American
Mcgee said "Jesus is a myth, you didn't know that?") seems to serve no
purpose other than to appeal to the AOL 31337 warez puppies and turn off a
great deal of people who take religion seriously. Will id really need to
depend on evil graphics to sell the game (rather than some lovable gore and
lots of game play like in DOOM)?
The reason I bring up these points in relation to the delay of Quake
is that up until now, none of these issues have been dealt with (at least
interviews and magazine articles by people who have played Quake haven't
noted that the controls were finished) and it may be in finalizing and
dealing with these issues, now that they're more in the design stage than
the building-the-tools stage, that has caused the delay.
-*Avatar*-
Check out http://fermi.clas.virginia.edu/~fsm3m. Cool game related stuff.
-*The Avatar*-
_Avatar_ on IRC. Mackey McCandlish.
http://www.widomaker.com./~avatar
(Nifty pics of DMF there, too).
ftp: ftp.widomaker.com in pub/avatar
The key to ONE MUST FALL is knowing who the 17 hit combos
work on..
DOOM MUST FALL IS OUT! Get it from my home page or ftp site!
------------------------------
From: misc335@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:27:56 +1300
Subject: Re: Quake, Wintex, Time - Opps!
> I must be the only person on this planet celebrating the delay of Quake :)
etc etc
Whoops, major mail-editer-screwup, this wasn't meant to go on the mail-list.
Sorry about that.
<retiring, redfaced...>
------------------------------
From: Olivier BONNET <olbonnet@worldnet.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 12:02:11 -0500
Subject: RE: Quake Scripting Language
Hep Steve
What is the format of the file you attached with your mail ?
OliV
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:53:57 GMT
Subject: Re: OFFSUB: legal question
At 8:14 am 9/11/95, Erwen L. Tang wrote:
>Sorry for this offsub message:
>
> After reading all the legal stuff on this list the past
>weeks, I want to ask if it's legal for me to take sprites out
>of the doom2.wad and edit them (cut&paste) and use them in my
>homepage.
>
Absolutely not! This is a clear violation of id's copyright and you will
leave yourself wide open to attack. (whether they will attack or not is
another question I won't waste bandwidth discussing.) The fact that
everyone else is doing it is no justification. In case you are interested,
here is Jay Wilbur's reply to my request to use some DOOM graphics on my
pages:-
SB>>I am writing to you to request permission to use some DOOM
SB>>screen-shots plus some (small) extracted graphical elements from the DOOM
SB>>WAD files.
J>
J>I would love to allow you to run with our copyrighted and trademarked
J>material but I cannot. It seems the illegal use of our properties has
J>become an industry unto itself. We cannot allow that.
J>
J>You may have pages with DOOM info on it but you cannot:
J>
J>1. Use the word DOOM in the name of your page
J>2. Use our logos or screenshots in your pages beyond what would be
J>considered "fair use" under the copyright law.
J>
J>Fair use: small tidbits of info used to help make the point of the material
J>being presented.
J>
J>
J>---
J>-j
As far as I'm aware, DOOMGate is the only web site which has official
permission to use id-derived materials, and even there, their use is
restricted.
- -Steve
p.s. I know I said that I was open to one free shot, but did it have to be
in the back? Some-one's gonna suffer just as soon as I can find another
StimPack! ;)
------------------------------
From: Drsleep00@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 07:14:37 -0500
Subject: Re: FW: late quake release
In a message dated 95-11-15 06:14:48 EST, you write:
>The fact that the graphical environment is
>so much better than in DOOM is enough in itself. id should at the very
>least have the basic respect for the creator of all on this earth...GOD and
>for religion in general. If it weren't for God and Jesus, we wouldn't be
>here at all and id wouldn't even exist...so respect is due.
I think y'all are getting into some dicey ground for a DOOM-editing thread.
With all due respect, not all of us are Christians, and not all of us are
theists. The above remarks are extremely subjective and presumptive, and
folks should remember that gaming is a secular creation process and leave
these pseudo-fundamentalist meanderings aside.
------------------------------
From: Aragorn! <bsc4074@hades.dcs.napier.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 11:55:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: late quake release
On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Robert Forsman wrote:
> Yeah. Aliens 2 was so much more enjoyable than Conan the Barbarian.
> I find myself laughing at Tank Police, whereas Lodoss Wars is merely OK.
>
> To make a hack and slash enjoyable you have to have to add slapstick
> gore ala my lightning strike proposal. The heads flying off stalkers are
> cool, but happen so fast you don't see them until they've splashed into
> the water. The shields and swords of the centaurs give a good bounce
> though. Now if they could add some death sequences that would make a
> Japanese stuntman proud, they would have a killer game.
So you want Mortal Kombat style fatalities in Quake then?
> Um, Thulsa Duum (or however you spell his name) had followers wearing
> white robes and the candles and shit. Anyone disagree that he was evil?
> Hell, considering the history of Christianity (the Crusades, the
> Inquisition, the assorted right-wing groups trying to annihilate the First
> Amendment on-line) you could quite believably label certain factions as
> evil.
Plus the crucifiction.
> Why would an evil religion look phenomenally different from a good
> religion?
White=good, red=neutral & black=evil.
Always has been and probably always will.
Therefore an evil religion is just a good one in black :)
Who really cares what the religions are anyway. It's playing the game
that counts....
> Well, I don't think the evil graphics will really sell the game, but I
> definitely want to know I'm crushing evil bad guys, whether it's Dark
> Bishops or CIA assassins.
Well some people do prefer to play the bad guys. Dune II, C & C, Dungeon
Keeper all demostrate this.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
| So remember when your feeling very small and insecure |
| How amazingly unlikely is your birth |
| And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space |
| Because there's bugger all down here on Earth. |
| |
| Aragorn! ,,, email: bsc4074@dcs.napier.ac.uk |
| (o o) http://www.dcs.napier.ac.uk/~bsc4074 |
------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: "Jason Czaplewski" <jason@epilepsy.health.ufl.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 08:14:46 EST
Subject: Re: Hexen Editing
Another DCK user ...
Go for the new version. Many of us did not go Win 95. Soon maybe, but not yet.
Jason
------------------------------
From: mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 08:20:58 -0500
Subject: Re: FW: late quake release
> so much better than in DOOM is enough in itself. id should at the very
> least have the basic respect for the creator of all on this earth...GOD and
> for religion in general. If it weren't for God and Jesus, we wouldn't be
> here at all and id wouldn't even exist...so respect is due.
I thought ID was god. Or just another myth?
Mark Mathews mmathews@genesis.nred.ma.us TEAM OS/2, TEAM DEU, TEAM WOLF3D
Are you using DEU, WARM or DEUTEX for DOOM? WHY NOT??
------------------------------
From: sheaslip@panix.com (Stephen Heaslip)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:30:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: late quake release
>> >Well, the Christian religion never actually put a person on an altar and
>> >sacrificed them. Personally, I have no problem with fighting against
demons
>>
>> Hmm. What would you call what they did to Christ?
>
>I was very careful about what I said. That wasn't an altar. :) And
>that's the only theoretic counter-example anyway.
Erm, that's not even remotely a counter-example, theoretic (sic) or
otherwise. The Christians did not kill Christ.
Sorry to follow-up an off-topic thread.
- --
blue (Steve Heaslip)
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth
makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers."
- -Charles Peguy
------------------------------
From: sheaslip@panix.com (Stephen Heaslip)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:24:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: FW: late quake release
>I agree with Avatars statement regarding religion. I really think DOOM/DOOM
>][ etc are the BEST games out, but the screenshots of Quake depict a
>Christ-Like figure crucified on the wall....Why? There are plenty of other
>ways to design a popular game. The fact that the graphical environment is
>so much better than in DOOM is enough in itself. id should at the very
>least have the basic respect for the creator of all on this earth...GOD and
>for religion in general. If it weren't for God and Jesus, we wouldn't be
>here at all and id wouldn't even exist...so respect is due.
Those are your opinions... want mine?
- -God is a myth.
- -Jesus was a liar.
- -The idea that we should respect "religion in general" is nauseous.
- -This thread is off-topic and should die.
BTW, there are more depictions of "Christ-like figure(s) crucified on the
wall" in the world's churches (in direct violation of a commandment) than
there will ever be in all the world's computer games.
>As for the delay in the release...we've waited this long...why not wait
>until it's done right.
Amen.
- --
blue (Steve Heaslip)
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth
makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers."
- -Charles Peguy
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:23 PST
Subject: Re: FW: late quake release
flynnk@usafe5.ramstein.af.mil wrote:
> so much better than in DOOM is enough in itself. id should at the very
> least have the basic respect for the creator of all on this earth...GOD and
> for religion in general. If it weren't for God and Jesus, we wouldn't be
> here at all and id wouldn't even exist...so respect is due.
dude, god may have placed _you_ on the earth .. but i, for one, was created in
a much more natural fashion.
obligatory list-related content: and try not to quote 4 pages when you
reply to a message, eh? :)
- - ben
- -/-
Ben Morris: Irritant at large bmorris@islandnet.com
SavanTech/Zerius/C++/Rush/DCK http://www.islandnet.com/~voltaire
Watch for DCK and HexenCK 3.0 real soon now, eh! Real soon! Yeah!
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #483
**********************************
