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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 398
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #398
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Saturday, 2 September 1995 Volume 01 : Number 398
Extra cameras- moot and dead
Re: Extra cameras- moot and dead
Re: Player Camera
Re: Player Camera
Re: Player Camera
Re: Player Camera
Players are monsters
Re: Player Camera
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:32:32 -0400
Subject: Extra cameras- moot and dead
> What you would have to do is somehow trick the computer into thinking that
>both players were on your computer. As for doing this, I don't have a clue.
Even if you did somehow manage to put in a "dummy player" (which I think
isn't even possible), it would look and act like a player, and you couldn't
guide it with the monsters' AI routines.
But to make another camera, you'd have to be running Doom in cooperative
mode, but without a modem or network connection going. Probably possible if
you're waiting for another player, but the problem comes in replacing the
data for that player. To have another camera, you'd need not only a location
and direction, but stats like health, armor and weapons- which only exist for
other players. Cameras are only intended for players.
This may be possible in Quake (though I wish people would stop crowding the
list with their thoughts about it- PLEASE, no more speculation on what Quake
will and won't do), but as for Doom, the point is completely moot. It simply
can't be done. Sure, stuff has been done with modem connections that no one
at id intended, but we're talking about routines that are totally internal to
the game.
Sure, I'd like to see a weapon-based camera. I'd like to be able to have spy
points to use in a DeathMatch.
BUT IT CAN'T BE DONE. Anything more is meaningless philosophical debate. :P
Let's move on.
Lummox JR
time mismanagement expert
------------------------------
From: Fairfax Shield McCandlish <fsm3m@fermi.clas.virginia.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:22:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Extra cameras- moot and dead
According to LummoxJR@aol.com:
>
> > What you would have to do is somehow trick the computer into thinking that
>
> >both players were on your computer. As for doing this, I don't have a clue.
>
> Even if you did somehow manage to put in a "dummy player" (which I think
> isn't even possible), it would look and act like a player, and you couldn't
> guide it with the monsters' AI routines.
Well actually you can.. but it'd give it to both
players so it'd be pointless (make the player's first animation
frame a monster's frame and he'll act like the monster, locking
his view on whoever shoots him and then firing repeatedly.) It
might be fun to start a 2 player game and shoot the 2nd player
so he'd follow you around, but once you got shot then you'd go
monster too.
> But to make another camera, you'd have to be running Doom in cooperative
> mode, but without a modem or network connection going. Probably possible if
> you're waiting for another player, but the problem comes in replacing the
> data for that player. To have another camera, you'd need not only a location
> and direction, but stats like health, armor and weapons- which only exist for
> other players. Cameras are only intended for players.
Yeah, it'd have to be a true 2 player coop game..
> BUT IT CAN'T BE DONE. Anything more is meaningless philosophical debate. :P
> Let's move on.
If you try hard enough anything is possible, Michael J.
Fox said so in Back to the Future.
-*Avatar*-
------------------------------
From: tavora@tpone.telepac.pt (J. Tavora)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 17:39:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Player Camera
> This messie is for all you die-hard DeHackEd ans out there... (not that=
I'm
> one of them)
DM> The only way to fool doom into starting a two-player cooperative game,
DM> in my opinion, would be to set up a fake serial/net driver to replace=
=20
DM> SERSETUP/IPXSETUP. You would just have to figure out the format of
DM> the net packets (anyone know?) and have the fake serial/net driver
DM> simply emulate a player that is standing still. I don't think there
DM> would be any other difficulties except emulating a net player that was
DM> not moving. If you succeeded in doing this, you could then hit F12 to
DM> see out the perspective of your "camera" during cooperative mode. If
DM> you did it this way, the camera would always be set at the player
DM> start for whatever net player your fake driver was emulating. So to
DM> set the camera, you would edit the level and place "player 2 start" at
DM> a different location and/or direction.
That's exacly what I was thinking about...
The problem with IPX/SERSETUP is real, but I've seen unofficial versions of
them... Anyway, when you start SERSETUP, it goes about its business
communicating and then DOOM starts! What I'm looking for is: when DOOM=
starts,
what parameters is it using to set the 2player game...?
But now I think I've come about another problem... In my version of DHE=
(2.2...
Where's 3.0??) I think you can't edit the player 2 thing, because it uses
the same properties as the player 1 thing...
Ciao,=20
_ __
</. /=E1vora --=3D=3D>Net: jtavora@telepac.pt <=3D=3D--
Ciao,=20
_ __
</. /=E1vora --=3D=3D>Net: jtavora@telepac.pt <=3D=3D--
------------------------------
From: tavora@tpone.telepac.pt (J. Tavora)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 17:39:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Player Camera
Lu> No one can. What you're suggesting isn't even remotely possible. :(
Lu> DHE is designed to mess with monsters and objects, and it has some
Lu> degree of control over weapons (especially in 3.0, where you can now
Lu> edit the BFG ammo usage). But multiple players and DeathMatch are out
Lu> of its scope. The big problem is that players are controlled internally
Lu> by the game, and any "camera" would be looking for player information.
Lu> DHE, unfortunately, not only has no control over how Doom sets up a
Lu> game (such as a cooperative game), but it can't provide that missing
Lu> data. Cameras and network/modem stuff are so internal as to be
Lu> untouchable. In hacking terms, the word "radioactive" might neatly
Lu> apply.=20
>I am also thinking about building some kind of "weapon camera" using a
Lu> similar
>idea...
It hasn't got ANYTHING to do with DHE being or not being able to mess
with the multiplayer bits. Imagine this... You start a regular coop. game
with a friend and tell him not to move. In a way, this is already the effect
I wanted to create... When you press f12 you'll have a camera in a=
completely
different room... Now, if you change the 2player sprites to those of an imp,
I once heard, the 2 player will start to attack you, and if it can't move,=
it
will focus on you, trying to move on you...
Lu> Same problem. Extra cameras aren't possible in DHE. This would indeed
Lu> be a cool effect, but unless you were to disassemble the code, find
Lu> what you wanted to change, change it (assuming you know what you're
Lu> doing), and reassemble it, it won't work; and even then, DHE would lose
Lu> the power to edit it, as the DOOM.EXE file would have changed in
Lu> length, and offsets to data values would certainly have shifted.
Why? if you set the player thing attributes to those exactly of a mid-air
rocket, you could be able to do it...
The real problem, I think, lies in SER/IPXsetup, because of cheating doom=
into
starting a coop. game on one computer only, but, hell, there's lots of new
versions of SER/IPXsetup out there, I think I could ask someone to give it a
try...
Lu> It was a nice idea, but it just can't be done. Trust me.
Maybe, but I'll never know if I don't try it out...
Lu> Official DHE Opinion Man
Ha, What's this suppose to mean??Do you know some kool tricks for
DHE? I have lots of ideas but rarely get them to work....
Ciao,
____,
</. /avora --=3D=3D>InterNet:jtavora@telepac.pt<=3D=3D--
=20
Ciao,=20
_ __
</. /=E1vora --=3D=3D>Net: jtavora@telepac.pt <=3D=3D--
------------------------------
From: tavora@tpone.telepac.pt (J. Tavora)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 19:53:56 +0000
Subject: Re: Player Camera
> This messie is for all you die-hard DeHackEd ans out there... (not that=
I'm
> one of them)
DM> The only way to fool doom into starting a two-player cooperative game,
DM> in my opinion, would be to set up a fake serial/net driver to replace=
=20
DM> SERSETUP/IPXSETUP. You would just have to figure out the format of
DM> the net packets (anyone know?) and have the fake serial/net driver
DM> simply emulate a player that is standing still. I don't think there
DM> would be any other difficulties except emulating a net player that was
DM> not moving. If you succeeded in doing this, you could then hit F12 to
DM> see out the perspective of your "camera" during cooperative mode. If
DM> you did it this way, the camera would always be set at the player
DM> start for whatever net player your fake driver was emulating. So to
DM> set the camera, you would edit the level and place "player 2 start" at
DM> a different location and/or direction.
That's exacly what I was thinking about...
The problem with IPX/SERSETUP is real, but I've seen unofficial versions of
them... Anyway, when you start SERSETUP, it goes about its business
communicating and then DOOM starts! What I'm looking for is: when DOOM=
starts,
what parameters is it using to set the 2player game...?
But now I think I've come about another problem... In my version of DHE=
(2.2...
Where's 3.0??) I think you can't edit the player 2 thing, because it uses
the same properties as the player 1 thing...
Ciao,=20
_ __
</. /=E1vora --=3D=3D>Net: jtavora@telepac.pt <=3D=3D--
Ciao,=20
_ __
</. /=E1vora --=3D=3D>Net: jtavora@telepac.pt <=3D=3D--
------------------------------
From: tavora@tpone.telepac.pt (J. Tavora)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 19:53:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Player Camera
Lu> No one can. What you're suggesting isn't even remotely possible. :(
Lu> DHE is designed to mess with monsters and objects, and it has some
Lu> degree of control over weapons (especially in 3.0, where you can now
Lu> edit the BFG ammo usage). But multiple players and DeathMatch are out
Lu> of its scope. The big problem is that players are controlled internally
Lu> by the game, and any "camera" would be looking for player information.
Lu> DHE, unfortunately, not only has no control over how Doom sets up a
Lu> game (such as a cooperative game), but it can't provide that missing
Lu> data. Cameras and network/modem stuff are so internal as to be
Lu> untouchable. In hacking terms, the word "radioactive" might neatly
Lu> apply.=20
>I am also thinking about building some kind of "weapon camera" using a
Lu> similar
>idea...
It hasn't got ANYTHING to do with DHE being or not being able to mess
with the multiplayer bits. Imagine this... You start a regular coop. game
with a friend and tell him not to move. In a way, this is already the effect
I wanted to create... When you press f12 you'll have a camera in a=
completely
different room... Now, if you change the 2player sprites to those of an imp,
I once heard, the 2 player will start to attack you, and if it can't move,=
it
will focus on you, trying to move on you...
Lu> Same problem. Extra cameras aren't possible in DHE. This would indeed
Lu> be a cool effect, but unless you were to disassemble the code, find
Lu> what you wanted to change, change it (assuming you know what you're
Lu> doing), and reassemble it, it won't work; and even then, DHE would lose
Lu> the power to edit it, as the DOOM.EXE file would have changed in
Lu> length, and offsets to data values would certainly have shifted.
Why? if you set the player thing attributes to those exactly of a mid-air
rocket, you could be able to do it...
The real problem, I think, lies in SER/IPXsetup, because of cheating doom=
into
starting a coop. game on one computer only, but, hell, there's lots of new
versions of SER/IPXsetup out there, I think I could ask someone to give it a
try...
Lu> It was a nice idea, but it just can't be done. Trust me.
Maybe, but I'll never know if I don't try it out...
Lu> Official DHE Opinion Man
Ha, What's this suppose to mean??Do you know some kool tricks for
DHE? I have lots of ideas but rarely get them to work....
Ciao,
____,
</. /avora --=3D=3D>InterNet:jtavora@telepac.pt<=3D=3D--
=20
Ciao,=20
_ __
</. /=E1vora --=3D=3D>Net: jtavora@telepac.pt <=3D=3D--
------------------------------
From: LummoxJR@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 15:50:16 -0400
Subject: Players are monsters
>> Even if you did somehow manage to put in a "dummy player" (which I think
>> isn't even possible), it would look and act like a player, and you
couldn't
>> guide it with the monsters' AI routines.
> Well actually you can.. but it'd give it to both
>players so it'd be pointless (make the player's first animation
>frame a monster's frame and he'll act like the monster, locking
>his view on whoever shoots him and then firing repeatedly.) It
>might be fun to start a 2 player game and shoot the 2nd player
>so he'd follow you around, but once you got shot then you'd go
>monster too.
I think I muddied my point in there somewhere. I knew about the players being
monsters patch (it's pretty weird), but I meant that the AI routines wouldn't
work for only the other player- that the player and the dummy would both have
to use the same logic (and graphics).
Thanks for clarifying.
Lummox JR
collecting bizarre DHE patches
------------------------------
From: tavora@tpone.telepac.pt (J. Tavora)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 21:54:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Player Camera
Lu> No one can. What you're suggesting isn't even remotely possible. :(
Lu> DHE is designed to mess with monsters and objects, and it has some
Lu> degree of control over weapons (especially in 3.0, where you can now
Lu> edit the BFG ammo usage). But multiple players and DeathMatch are out
Lu> of its scope. The big problem is that players are controlled internally
Lu> by the game, and any "camera" would be looking for player information.
Lu> DHE, unfortunately, not only has no control over how Doom sets up a
Lu> game (such as a cooperative game), but it can't provide that missing
Lu> data. Cameras and network/modem stuff are so internal as to be
Lu> untouchable. In hacking terms, the word "radioactive" might neatly
Lu> apply.=20
>I am also thinking about building some kind of "weapon camera" using a
Lu> similar
>idea...
It hasn't got ANYTHING to do with DHE being or not being able to mess
with the multiplayer bits. Imagine this... You start a regular coop. game
with a friend and tell him not to move. In a way, this is already the effect
I wanted to create... When you press f12 you'll have a camera in a=
completely
different room... Now, if you change the 2player sprites to those of an imp,
I once heard, the 2 player will start to attack you, and if it can't move,=
it
will focus on you, trying to move on you...
Lu> Same problem. Extra cameras aren't possible in DHE. This would indeed
Lu> be a cool effect, but unless you were to disassemble the code, find
Lu> what you wanted to change, change it (assuming you know what you're
Lu> doing), and reassemble it, it won't work; and even then, DHE would lose
Lu> the power to edit it, as the DOOM.EXE file would have changed in
Lu> length, and offsets to data values would certainly have shifted.
Why? if you set the player thing attributes to those exactly of a mid-air
rocket, you could be able to do it...
The real problem, I think, lies in SER/IPXsetup, because of cheating doom=
into
starting a coop. game on one computer only, but, hell, there's lots of new
versions of SER/IPXsetup out there, I think I could ask someone to give it a
try...
Lu> It was a nice idea, but it just can't be done. Trust me.
Maybe, but I'll never know if I don't try it out...
Lu> Official DHE Opinion Man
Ha, What's this suppose to mean??Do you know some kool tricks for
DHE? I have lots of ideas but rarely get them to work....
Ciao,
____,
</. /avora --=3D=3D>InterNet:jtavora@telepac.pt<=3D=3D--
=20
Ciao,=20
_ __
</. /=E1vora --=3D=3D>Net: jtavora@telepac.pt <=3D=3D--
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #398
**********************************
