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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 352
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #352
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Thursday, 20 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 352
DeHackEd and player height
Eeeep!!
Re: MIDI Files
Re: MIDI Files
Re: How Much Stuff
difficulty
Re: DeHackEd and player height
Re: MIDI Files
Re: MIDI Files
Re: How Much Stuff
Re: MIDI Files
trigger 666
Re: Ammo & Stuff
Re: MIDI Files
Re: trigger 666
Re: MIDI Files
Re: 'Split' sector bug
Re: trigger 666
Re: trigger 666
Re: trigger 666
Re: trigger 666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: misc335@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:37:03 +1300
Subject: DeHackEd and player height
I asked about this a few weeks ago, but I think it's worth asking again.
In Doom v1.2, you could raise the players viewpoint by increasing the
player objects Height attribute. I do not have any version of doom higher
than 1.666, and would like to know if this works on higher versions of
doom or doom2 (it doesn't work on 1.666 so I think it is unlikely.)
"What's so damned important about this stupid trick?" you say
Well, combine it with several other alterations, and a new IWAD, and you
have a (almost) no-strings-attached Doom conversion with all the textures
and sprites etc rendered at twice (or more) the resolution. Blockyness as
monsters and walls get close would be virtually eliminated.
A few of the attached strings: I don't know how to increase the res of the
shotgun spread template, twice the res means four times the work (and
we're talking IWAD scale here...), plus other fixed res occurances.
Does anyone know an address for id appropriate for asking this sort of
question?
Thanks,
Seeya
Justin Fisher
(Author - Aliens-TC)
------------------------------
From: Scott Jordan <sjordan@wins0.win.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 21:46:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Eeeep!!
Err... I need to clear up some things.
I'm not writing IWADDUMP or any other program which sounds like that.
IWADDUMP has already been written. It's a very useful program which was
written by someone else. I'd give them credit here and now if my CD-ROM
driver was loaded and I could get to the D!ZONE CD. If my 'thing ratio
estimator' is ever good enough for public consumption, it will be called
TCOUNT.
There is no way that a WAD can be made playable with a cut and dry
numeric analysis. But, you can frequently tell a crappy single player WAD
because it's over loaded with stuff. I'm not talking about the older
deathmatch ones which were made before -altdeath became available. I'm
talking about the ones which you play on UV mode and finish up with your
ammo, health, and armor crammed full to the gills.
The other issue is how to allocate monsters and stuff between the different
difficulty levels. Id did a good job of this. I would like to be able to
do it too.
Architectural concerns must be addressed on a case by case basis. 10
demons in a 64" corridor is different from 10 demons in a 192" corridor.
My intent is to speed development by looking at the number and type of
monsters, then providing a *CRUDE* estimate of initial stuff loading. Play
testing is required (common sense must prevail!!) But, let's have a little
sympathy for our testers who probably don't really want to play our new
WADS once or twice a day for a week.
Scott
*Purveyor of CMOS Epi*
------------------------------
From: Fawnstalkr@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 02:27:05 -0400
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
Okay, my first post to the mailing list...
As was stated before, .MOD, .MID, .VOC, .WAV and .MUS are all distinct
file types. Though they are all a method for the recording and playback of
sound, they all perform the task in different ways. .MID .MUS and .MOD files
utilize a set of values that specify note, duration, voice, etc, and there
are editors out there that will convert between these file types. However,
.VOC and .WAV files have NONE of that sort of information, and are rather
more like a digital recording like that on a CD or tape. There is no way to
write a program to 'extract' the note sounds or the like. The only option
that I know of that would be able to perform such a feat is to purchase at a
professional music store a little device that is able to convert and sound,
be it whistling or a hum, into musical notation. They cost quite a bit,
though I'm not sure of the exact price.
The idea of sequencing a .WAV into a .MID file for insertion into a DOOM
.WAD is moot if for no other reason than the DOOM engine simply doesn't have
the capability to play it. Even if someone was willing to go to the trouble
of setting up their system, they would need to have a sampling keyboard into
which they would have to record the WAV file into, to be played back as
general MIDI data via note information contained in the DOOM .MUS. DOOM
only allows one format for it's music.
... Does all that clear it up, or just make it worse? ;)
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 03:48:29 -0500
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
At 02:27 AM 7/19/95 -0400, doom-editing@nvg.unit.no wrote:
>more like a digital recording like that on a CD or tape. There is no way to
>write a program to 'extract' the note sounds or the like.
2 things. 1) I know of a way to write such a program, and have
considered doing
so, but itd be extremely slow, and quite pointless.
2) This thread is off topic, please quit posting to it.
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: alberto@astrpi.difi.unipi.it (Alberto BARSELLA)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 10:49:30 DFT
Subject: Re: How Much Stuff
fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr):
> >
> >Id's levels become extremely easy and loaded of healing stuff once
> >you have a general idea of the layout.
>
> Not all of them. Have you tried MAP10 or MAP16 on UV starting
> with just a pistol?
Well....I was talking about D1.....
And my opinion is that a sequence of levels should be designed to
be played as a sequence of levels, not just a bunch of singular
levels which "happen to be in the same wad".
BTW I don't really like several of the D2 levels, I tried them
in Co-op mode and it's not fun when you start finding one cyberdemon
each level....
Alberto
- --
Alberto Barsella | I have discovered that all Windoze problems
alberto@astrpi.difi.unipi.it | can be solved with: del windows /sxyq (4dos)
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 05:44:08 EDT
Subject: difficulty
MAP10 and MAP16 are tough. E2M2, on the other hand, is easy enough that you can
complete it on UV with nothing but the berserk fist.
------------------------------
From: Strange369@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 09:49:34 -0400
Subject: Re: DeHackEd and player height
In a message dated 95-07-18 21:43:30 EDT, you write:
>Does anyone know an address for id appropriate for asking this sort of
>question?
>
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| John Romero (romero@idsoftware.com) id Software |
| Send questions about id software to help@idsoftware.com |
| ftp.idsoftware.com Official id anonymous FTP site |
| www.idsoftware.com Official id Web site |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
This was pasted from a reply I got from John about a week and a half ago
regarding an answer to a problem that was engine based. I hope it helps.
Timothy
Strange369@aol.com
strange@inch.com
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 08:22:00 CDT
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
Well how 'bout this: take you .WAV file with whatever music you want
and replace one of the monster sounds, say the cyberdemon walk, with it.
You would have to arrange things so that the cyberdemon won't attack anything
yet is close enough to be heard. Then you would hear your music whenever
you are close enough to the cyberdemon. Scattering a few about the level so
that there is no area that is not in sound range of one would provide full
music coverage. You would also have to play the level with the -nomusic
flag (or disable it via SETUP) so the normal background music wouldn't
interfere. I don't know how long a sound sample DooM can handle though.
And I haven't tried this myself since I just thought of it. Has anyone tried
this technique?
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: mustaine@usa.net (Tom Mustaine)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 07:39:04 -0600
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
>
>
>On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, David A.R. Wallace wrote:
>
>> If you can convert .mod to .mid, then you can pull it off indirectly.
>> Can it be done? Hmmmm...
>>
>> David Wallace
>
>No. It Can't be done. (peroid!)
>
Ok, You can: Convert Midi to MUS - MOD to Midi - Midi to MOD
You Cant: Convert WAV to MUS - WAV to Midi - MAV to MOD
BTW, does anybody know where I can pick up a midi to mod converter? I know
its out there, I had one back in 386 days. But along with the removing of
HD's, I lost it. It was cool, would transer all the midi tracks to a 8
channel mod with no instuments, you had to add the correct insturments and
it worked great. Anybody know of a place to get one?
+--------------------------------------------------+
| Tom Mustaine - Clock Paradox - Paradox - TWM2029 |
+--(http//:usa.net/~mustaine/(Coming Soon!).html)--+
------------------------------
From: Brandon Reinhart <firemage@databank.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 08:50:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: How Much Stuff
On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Alberto BARSELLA wrote:
>
> Is the placement of monsters taken into account in any way?
> A "spatial density" of monsters, maybe?
>
Its called the "meat" factor or the "monster mash".
>
>
> Id's levels become extremely easy and loaded of healing stuff once
> you have a general idea of the layout.
>
Keyphrase is once you have a general idea, i think it would be
acceptable to use this data in constructing levels because when people
play for the first time they will not know the general idea.
The question is would replay value be lost or lowered..
> I must say
that I'm a bit skeptic of the information that
might > be generated by a program, because I think it will never be able
> to really "evaluate" the difficulty. I wonder what happens if
> you consider a level which has a quite large layout and 10 Barons,
> all of them in the INITIAL room :)
>
By god ye've cracked the code! Then again maybe not...one could
always use rationale to determine that 10 Barons in the initial room is a
slightly unbalancing factor....we shouldn't let programs run the
development process or dictate what is right or wrong... :)
Brandon
------------------------------
From: Andre Arsenault <d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:24:17 -0300 (ADT)
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
> Well how 'bout this: take you .WAV file with whatever music you want
> and replace one of the monster sounds, say the cyberdemon walk, with it.
> You would have to arrange things so that the cyberdemon won't attack anything
> yet is close enough to be heard. Then you would hear your music whenever
> you are close enough to the cyberdemon. Scattering a few about the level so
> that there is no area that is not in sound range of one would provide full
> music coverage. You would also have to play the level with the -nomusic
> flag (or disable it via SETUP) so the normal background music wouldn't
> interfere. I don't know how long a sound sample DooM can handle though.
> And I haven't tried this myself since I just thought of it. Has anyone tried
> this technique?
I haven't tried it, but I've thought about it before, while trying to
figure out how to put speech into Doom (through music). If you use a
DeHackEd patch to change the Cyberdemon's walk noise, why not go all the
way, and make him invisible, intangible, and run like a bat outta hell? This
way you only need one Cyberdemon (instead of 6 or 7 which would get
annoying pretty quickly), you wouldn't be able to see, or bump into him,
and it'd follow you anywhere, so long as you don't cut a 355 degree
corner faster than him. Level design could take care of that last thing
though.
You'd probably want to eliminate all his other noises (make them point
to a blank WAV), take away his ability to shoot, give him the ability to
jump off ledges, and give him the ability to climb bigger stairs (can
this be done, or is it even a problem?). That should just about do it.
'Course all of this won't count for anything if you can't put in a big
'ole WAV file.
Damn, I just thought of something (Sorry 'bout the lengthy conversation
with myself :) ). Would Doom try to repeat the walking sound before the
previous one had finished? That would suck. If so, replace the "spotting
player" sound. Then of course, you wouldn't get looping.
Who volunteers to try it out?
============ Andre Arsenault ------- d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca ============
%%%%%%%%%%% "You know, if you shoot me you're liable to lose a %%%%%%%%%%%%
%%%%%%%%%%%%% lot of those humanitarian awards..." -Fletch %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
=============================================================================
------------------------------
From: Gerald Hannafin <pothead@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:09:21 -0400
Subject: trigger 666
can anyone tell me how to make a door open upon the death of a particular
monster? I see this effect in doom2 level 7, where you must kill the last
mancubus to open the four doors... the doors all have trigger # 666... i've
tried to duplicate this effect to no avail... what am I doing wrong?
- --
Never let your schooling interfere with your education - Mark Twain
------------------------------
From: swassell@sv.span.com (Stephen Wassell)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 18:32:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Ammo & Stuff
In article <9507181354.AA18832@rocke> you write:
>
>>Work to date has concentrated on single player issues. IWADDUMP.EXE does a
> ^
> ^
> I'd suggest getting a different name for your analysis utility.
>IWADDUMP is too generic a name for the kind of utility it is.
How about 'thnganal'? :)
Anyway, I suppose each monster could have a weighting in points, and so
would each type of bonus. Monster points minus bonus points should be
around 0. The best way to do the the weightings would be to have them in a
file, so users could change them if they want.
Since different guns are best for different monsters, and people have
different preferences, it might be an idea to have some sort of bias
on this. But, it would be much simpler for each weapon and piece of ammo
to go under the bonus points.
Just my ideas... Maybe I should write a program like this too! :)
------------------------------------=*=------------------------------------
_____ __ __
/ ____)\ \ / / from Stephen Wassell Oh, what sad times are these
\____ \ \ \/\/ / SWassell@sv.span.com when passing ruffians can say
(_____/ \_/\_/ Try coopers.wad! "Ni" at will to old ladies.
------------------------------
From: "C. Sheldon" <sheldonc@acy.digex.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:46:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
> Well how 'bout this: take you .WAV file with whatever music you want
> and replace one of the monster sounds, say the cyberdemon walk, with it.
> You would have to arrange things so that the cyberdemon won't attack anything
> yet is close enough to be heard. Then you would hear your music whenever
> you are close enough to the cyberdemon. Scattering a few about the level so
> that there is no area that is not in sound range of one would provide full
> music coverage. You would also have to play the level with the -nomusic
> flag (or disable it via SETUP) so the normal background music wouldn't
> interfere. I don't know how long a sound sample DooM can handle though.
> And I haven't tried this myself since I just thought of it. Has anyone tried
> this technique?
>
That would really slow thing down and sound horrible on many sound cards.
many times while playing some sounds are cut off while you fire, yet the
music keeps going, if you had the music as a wav file it would be very
very choppy.
- -Cliff Sheldon
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:41:52 -0500
Subject: Re: trigger 666
At 01:09 PM 7/19/95 -0400, doom-editing@nvg.unit.no wrote:
>can anyone tell me how to make a door open upon the death of a particular
>monster? I see this effect in doom2 level 7, where you must kill the last
>mancubus to open the four doors... the doors all have trigger # 666... i've
>tried to duplicate this effect to no avail... what am I doing wrong?
Tag 666 only works on certain levels, and it does different things on some
of them. Example: DOOM 1, E1M8. Tag 666 here makes says the big monsters
(anything
above baron, right?) deaths makes the sectors tag 666 lower (to near of lowest
I am not sure). Tag 666 on TUD E4M6 makes the sector tagged so Turbo Door Open
(I just found this out....look at the cyber demon ledge. Kill him, turbo door
open). Tag 666 on TUD E4M8 makes the pillar lower....when everyone in the last
room dies, the pillar lowers. Tag 667 only works on MAP07 AFAIK. It says when
all aracnotrons die, start a 16 high turbo stair rise with the sector(s) tagged.
I think this is right, If not correct me. Also, I wonder if TUD alows
tag 666
to work on any level? If so, what are the effects? I wish id had let 666 and 667
work on any level. Any WAD with that many triggers sucks anyways. Oh well. I
guess
someone needs to thouroughly test all this.
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: Ryan Drake <nccs1@farside.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:18:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Tom Mustaine wrote:
> Ok, You can: Convert Midi to MUS - MOD to Midi - Midi to MOD
You cannot convert MODs to MIDIs to work with doom. You can convert the
note/controller information, but not the instrument patches. These are
fixed in doom.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ->Ryan Drake<- "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
[eMAiL] nccs1@farside.gsfc.nasa.gov But I have promises to keep.
[URL] --to be announced-- And miles to go before I sleep."
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: swassell@sv.span.com (Stephen Wassell)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 18:40:27 GMT
Subject: Re: 'Split' sector bug
In article <9507172257.AA08067@rocke> you write:
>> I've recently started getting a strange bug in a deathmatch wad I've
>>been building. A couple of the sectors have started getting 'split' by
>>thin triangular black slices that are apparently not in any sector. The
>>base of the triangle is one linedef of the sector, and the vertex is the
>>player. If a triangle is lined up right with another sector, it is even
>>possilbe to 'fall in' and get trapped. The strange thing is that I have
>
> If I understand you correctly, I'd say this is not due to any node
>generation error, but due to the DooM engine fixed point math. This kind
>of visual effect is not that uncommon. It's present in E1M1 of DooM I if
>you look (from the right spot) across the acid area at the imp(s) on the
>ledge as you enter the acid area. However, this effect does not move with
>the player. If the problem you have does move with the player, then there
>probably is some kind of nodes error.
This monopixel vertical line does actually seem to be a problem with the
nodebuilder, as it was a bug in id's original code. Since I _think_ the
latest DEU uses id's nodebuilder code (I'm not certain), it could happen
in your own levels too. Other node builders might have the same bug.
Another problem I've noticed is id's reject builder occasoinally breaks;
you open a door, and nothing in the room notices you.
I know idbsp is a bit out of date now, but I used it on my last full-size
level (see my .sig). That was a year ago now! (note to myself: get on with
it!) :)
------------------------------------=*=------------------------------------
_____ __ __
/ ____)\ \ / / from Stephen Wassell Oh, what sad times are these
\____ \ \ \/\/ / SWassell@sv.span.com when passing ruffians can say
(_____/ \_/\_/ Try coopers.wad! "Ni" at will to old ladies.
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 16:07:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: trigger 666
> Tag 666 only works on certain levels, and it does different things on some
> of them. Example: DOOM 1, E1M8. Tag 666 here makes says the big monsters
[ ... ]
Hmmm, has anyone written a Tag 666 FAQ yet?
Greg
------------------------------
From: ariens@sierra.net (Andrew Ariens)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:29:51 -0700
Subject: Re: trigger 666
>can anyone tell me how to make a door open upon the death of a particular
>monster? I see this effect in doom2 level 7, where you must kill the last
>mancubus to open the four doors... the doors all have trigger # 666... i've
>tried to duplicate this effect to no avail... what am I doing wrong?
>--
>Never let your schooling interfere with your education - Mark Twain
>
>
This only works on certail levels of Doom and Doom 2. (M8 of any episode of
Doom, and MAP07 and MAP32 of Doom 2 are the only ones I know of)
------------------------------
From: "quester@topnet.nl" <quester@topnet.nl>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 22:35:22 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: trigger 666
/----------------------------------------------------------------\
| quester@topnet.nl | UUD - Member |
| Amon Endt | Irc #UUD |
| The Hague, Holland | WWW Home Page : http://bart.nl/~shadow |
\----------------------------------------------------------------/
Haya,
> can anyone tell me how to make a door open upon the death of a particular
> monster? I see this effect in doom2 level 7, where you must kill the last
> mancubus to open the four doors... the doors all have trigger # 666... i've
> tried to duplicate this effect to no avail... what am I doing wrong?
> --
> Never let your schooling interfere with your education - Mark Twain
>
It only works on that lvl and some others, it is hard coded in the doom2.exe.
So make a Wad on that lvl and it will work.
BTW guys : Can you hack the exe file and change this? maybe with dehacked
or something. Lemme know I am curious
Cyu Quester
quester@topnet.nl
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 17:10:29 -0500
Subject: Re: trigger 666
At 04:07 PM 7/19/95, doom-editing@nvg.unit.no wrote:
>> Tag 666 only works on certain levels, and it does different things on
some
>> of them. Example: DOOM 1, E1M8. Tag 666 here makes says the big monsters
> [ ... ]
>
> Hmmm, has anyone written a Tag 666 FAQ yet?
I know 666 works on TUD E4M6 and E4m8, maybe others....someone needs to
systemativally test 666 and 667 on all DOOM 1 and DOOM 2 and TUD slots.
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #352
**********************************
