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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 320
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #320
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Wednesday, 21 June 1995 Volume 01 : Number 320
RE: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
re: DOOM PACKETS ...
Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
RE: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
Quake System Architecture (was: re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers)
Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
Re: Quake System Architecture (was ...)
IRC quake-quack flame war/reminder
re: DOOM PACKETS ...
Re: Quake System Architecture (was: re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers)
simple doom question
DOOM PACKETS
Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: DOOM PACKETS
Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: avatar@widomaker.com (Mackey McCandlish)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 20:26 EDT
Subject: RE: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
>Losers = apt description! What I wanna know - demos - can you
>fastfoward, pause, rewind etc..., can people spy on a game, join
>at will? And, what's the editor gonna be like?
I asked about the editor and was ignored.. same goes with demos. So
stop calling us losers and reread what we asked.
-*The Avatar*-
http://www.widomaker.com./~avatar
(Nifty pics of DMF there, too).
ftp: ftp.widomaker.com in pub/avatar
The key to ONE MUST FALL is knowing who the 17 hit combos
work on..
DOOM MUST FALL IS OUT! Get it from my home page or ftp site!
------------------------------
From: Murray Chapman <muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:52:51 +1000 (EST)
Subject: re: DOOM PACKETS ...
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Alden Bates wrote:
> Ditto for monsters spawning on level 30 of DOOM II. Thus, all this is
> not random. Does anyone have any other theories? Mine is that
> deathmatch respawning and monster spawning is determined somehow by the
> players actions, possibly even determined by the direction the player is
> facing at the time, and or position in the level...
Objectively, there is no such thing as a "random" number in normal PC.
You can simulate them but the sequence is deterministic, exactly what you
need for DOOM. The "random" number generator is merely a function that
has so many inputs that it's unfaesable to try and predict it.
An easy way to generate a deterministic "random" sequence is to multiply
the contents of the registers after a screen refresh (will be the same
when playing back an LMP) with the last keyboard scancode or the
coordinates of the mouse (both stored in LMP).
If you're interested, get a book on encryption theory.
Murray
- -- Murray Chapman Zheenl Punczna --
- -- muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au zhmmyr@pf.hd.bm.nh --
- -- University of Queensland Havirefvgl bs Dhrrafynaq --
- -- Brisbane, Australia Oevfonar, Nhfgenyvn --
------------------------------
From: Murray Chapman <muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:38:43 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Mackey McCandlish wrote:
> Besides.. as intriguiging as things like how the networking
> would be handled are, do you think those are the important things when it
> comes right down to it? Isn't the essential gameplay and environment what
> it's all about? Am I wrong? Look at ROTT: It has networking and options
> coming out its ears.. but the gameplay bites so it's all worthless. Ok?
Hi there
ROTT is a good example of a user interface and flashy graphics without much
thought going into the architecture of the game. I would prefer to have
more complex architecture than to have RemoteRidicule(tm), but that's
not what happened. Consequently, ROTT died an early death because it's
basically Wolf3d with a steroid-enhanced interface.
It's the same with movies: you can dress it up with as many special
effects as you like, but unless there's a decent concept behind it, it's
going to suck like a Hoover.
When DOOM was being developed, the various beta-testers around were posting
screenshots of what each beta version looked like. I remember seeing
some of them: messages that scrolled through the status bar at the bottom,
a rifle, a cattle prod, etc. These things are the superfical things. The
basic concept of DOOM had been decided: 4 players, for every X,Y, only 1 Z,
etc.
The issue about which weapons you have, and what resolution the game runs
at, and what sound cards it support are all interesting, but don't really
tell us anything about the guts of the game. Besides which, given the
extensible nature of Quake, you'll be able to customize these details anyway!
Presume that we were having this conversation six months before DOOM was
released. Which set of information would you rather know about the upcoming
game:
A) Support for SB16, SB, Gravis, Sound Canvas, PAS, joystick, mouse,
keyboard. 3 episodes of 8+1 secret level. Imps, Demons, Shotguns,
chaingun, berzerk. Network supported. Boss at end of episode. 4
difficulty levels. Record demos. Add new levels.
or
B) Fully distributed and replicated network communicating game controller
snapshots. Architecture is 2.5D, every X,Y has only one Z. Lifting
platforms, line triggers, sectors. Objects are sprites, modeled as
cylinders. Auto-vertical aiming. Sectors have properties of light,
damage, and vertical motion. Maps have BSP optimizations, and are
static in X,Y.
Option A could describe ROTT/Descent/Duke3D/TV just as well as DOOM. We
need the "blood and guts" information from category B. Quake is still far
from complete; I imagine they are still deciding things that would be in
option B. Things in category A would be decided later.
Now! Given that "the most exciting and gee-whiz feature of Quake is the
whole interactiveness of it all", I think that fundamentals of how the
network is stuck together is of extreme interest!
Murray
- -- Murray Chapman Zheenl Punczna --
- -- muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au zhmmyr@pf.hd.bm.nh --
- -- University of Queensland Havirefvgl bs Dhrrafynaq --
- -- Brisbane, Australia Oevfonar, Nhfgenyvn --
------------------------------
From: Andre Arsenault <d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 22:38:05 -0300 (ADT)
Subject: RE: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, C. Sheldon wrote:
> Losers!? WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET OFF!? Generalizing like that about
> THOUSANDS of people....what makes us losers? the fact that we use irc?
> hmmmmmmmmmm? The fact that we actually PLAY the game!? Have YOU PLAYED
> the game!? I doubt very much that many of the readers of this list
> actually PLAY doom. I can tell you though that ALL of the people on #Doom
> on irc DO play the game...thats what they are there for, and THAT is
> what their questions were geared for, we wanna know how its gonna PLAY,
> we don't care how it works, as long as it does, we don't care what kinda
> network bullshit they put in, as long as we can PLAY it. If that makes us
> losers then well.....I'm proud to be a loser.
>
> -Cliff Sheldon
> DrWu @ #Doom
Here, here! (Or is that hear, hear? Being a "loser" I wouldn't know...)
Just because we don't ask the questions that this one guy wants us to,
we're losers? Oh, well if that's what the world is coming to, you can
count me out of it. Lemme go die in a hole now, I'm so offended.
_Benny_, wherever I show up.
============ Andre Arsenault ------- d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca ============
%%%%%%%%%%% "You know, if you shoot me you're liable to lose a %%%%%%%%%%%%
%%%%%%%%%%%%% lot of those humanitarian awards..." -Fletch %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
=============================================================================
------------------------------
From: Murray Chapman <muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:37:49 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Quake System Architecture (was: re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers)
> what their questions were geared for, we wanna know how its gonna PLAY,
> we don't care how it works, as long as it does, we don't care what kinda
> network bullshit they put in, as long as we can PLAY it. If that makes us
> losers then well.....I'm proud to be a loser.
Hi there
Well, pardon me! I assumed we were in doom-editing, the high-end mailing
list for discussing advanced editing techniques and the internals of
id software products!
If you want to talk about games that you play with one hand, then fine:
stick with IRC. You're out of line if you complain that people are
talking about technical details in this forum, pal.
Back on topic:
Initial suggestions were that the Quake programming language would be
Forth-based, but this was denied by American McGee. Checking out the
announcement of "Abuse" by "Crack Dot Com" in comp.os.linux.announce makes
me think that perhaps they will be supporting a flavor of LISP.
Several reasons:
a) ddt involved with Abuse, which has LISP-style language
as well as multiplayer support. Interesting that Abuse docs
talk about network players rejoining games in progress
having to download updates to what they've missed.
b) simple, yet powerful: it's dead easy to parse, and has
only a few concepts: function definition/application,
string/integer "typeless" types, support for OO, etc.
c) AutoCad has it's own LISP variant (AutoLISP), which shows
that this kind of approach can work.
Ideas?
Murray
- -- Murray Chapman Zheenl Punczna --
- -- muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au zhmmyr@pf.hd.bm.nh --
- -- University of Queensland Havirefvgl bs Dhrrafynaq --
- -- Brisbane, Australia Oevfonar, Nhfgenyvn --
------------------------------
From: avatar@widomaker.com (Mackey McCandlish)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 02:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
>Hi there
-Inane gameplay vs window dressings stuff we already know cut-
>When DOOM was being developed, the various beta-testers around were posting
>screenshots of what each beta version looked like. I remember seeing
>some of them: messages that scrolled through the status bar at the bottom,
>a rifle, a cattle prod, etc. These things are the superfical things. The
>basic concept of DOOM had been decided: 4 players, for every X,Y, only 1 Z,
>etc.
And Romero revealed all those things in a realtime chat with a bunch
of unprepared gamers like he does with all the technical stuff, eh?
>The issue about which weapons you have, and what resolution the game runs
>at, and what sound cards it support are all interesting, but don't really
>tell us anything about the guts of the game. Besides which, given the
>extensible nature of Quake, you'll be able to customize these details anyway!
But things such as what speed the game will run at are actually
important to people that play the game. He said it'll support all kinds of
net connections, and apparently didn't want to go into any more detail than
that.
>
>Now! Given that "the most exciting and gee-whiz feature of Quake is the
>whole interactiveness of it all", I think that fundamentals of how the
>network is stuck together is of extreme interest!
>
I'm sure you'll be THRILLED to know that Romero IS following this
thread.. and guess what! He showed up on #doom again.. so I asked him
whether he'd like to answer any of your nifty net questions.. and he ignored
me! And he ain't answering you here.. which tells ya something.. he only
INTENDED to answer the kinda questions we were already asking.. meaning YOU
would have been the one wasting his time with questions he had no intention
of answering in the first place.
-*The Avatar*-
http://www.widomaker.com./~avatar
(Nifty pics of DMF there, too).
ftp: ftp.widomaker.com in pub/avatar
The key to ONE MUST FALL is knowing who the 17 hit combos
work on..
DOOM MUST FALL IS OUT! Get it from my home page or ftp site!
------------------------------
From: James L Elson <jlelson@utdallas.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 01:31:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Murray Chapman wrote:
> I wouldn't be surprised if Romero never talked on IRC again, given the
> inane, egotistical, selfish, and uninformed shit directed at him by those
> IRC losers.
>
> What about all the interesting questions:
>
[excellent technical questions elided]
Why are you attempting to start a flame war?
I've read the transcripts of Romero's appearances on both #doom and
#dwango. What I saw could be more accurately described as similar to
what happens when a celebrity shows up unannounced in a crowd of
admirers: they are taken off-guard and emotional enthuasisam
predominates.
This is just the opposite of the situation of an interview, both
know they are coming and one has the time to think up some well-thought
out questions.
Another thing to consider is that Romero didn't stop in to talk shop so
much as to say "Hi guys."
When Romero shows up on Dallas Dwango, he doesn't want to talk shop,
he wants to DM.
I am finding it very difficult to be generous with you Murray.
Allow me to hazard one guess: you frequented #doom on a couple of
occasions and felt left out because you were not welcomed with open
arms by those with ops.
BTW, there are a couple of regulars on #doom that are very much into
coding--one of them probably knows much more about how the Doom engine
functions than you do. He's told me that he wishes there were more
"coders" on #doom which is mostly frequented by deathmatchers.
P.S. to Dario, com'on man, I thought better of you than to fall for
this simplistic IRCer = lamer mentality. :(
BTW, if you are really interested in asking Romero some technical
questions, why don't you do so here. Afterall, he was subscribed to
this list. (I remember his post, but I haven't checked to see if he
still is or not.) Also, his e-mail address is well known.
- --Bowman (aka H2HMud)
================= H2HMud International Doomers Competition =================
Out of "The 12", "There Can Be Only 1!"
Where is the Home of the DoomGods?
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jelson@conline.com; WEB page ==> http://www.conline.com/~jelson/index.html
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@aachen.eed.ericsson.se
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 09:01:22 +0200
Subject: Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
Hello there...
Just a reminder: this mailing list was created for discussing
ADVANCED DOOM EDITING TECHNIQUES. I don't care if people play
the game or not (actually, I didn't play much lately), but I do
care if people talk about technical details of the Doom engine
and the WAD structure or are only wasting bandwidth with
pointless discussions.
In other words, shut up! Let's kill this thread and go back to
DOOM EDITING. Move this topic back to IRC where it began and
where it belongs, but don't flood this mailing list. And stop
whining. If you strongly disagree with someone, reply with
private e-mail, but don't post your complaints on this list!
Thank you.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (drake o'brien)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 00:28:00 PST
Subject: Re: Quake System Architecture (was ...)
Murray Chapman writes:
>> what their questions were geared for, we wanna know how its gonna PLAY,
>> we don't care how it works, as long as it does, we don't care what kinda
>> network bullshit they put in, as long as we can PLAY it. If that makes us
>> losers then well.....I'm proud to be a loser.
>Hi there
>Well, pardon me! I assumed we were in doom-editing, the high-end mailing
>list for discussing advanced editing techniques and the internals of
>id software products!
Yah yah, this list serves both programmers and end-users of doom editing
utilities and sometimes the interests of these groups only coincide
obliquely (likewise the interests of 'wad-authors' and 'game players' are
sometimes a bit remote). You aimed your original insult at this 'Avatar' guy
who, any programming abilities that he might happen to have aside, has
demonstrated his ability as a 'high-end' user of doom editing tools. He's
experimental and creative in his work and has done a lot of stuff that I
haven't tried yet, and for this reason I'm interested in the discussion he
took part in with an author of Quake.
I think your specific concerns would get a more positive and productive
response if you addressed the group with them directly, rather than tacking
them on as an addendum to a flame.
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:20:54 +0200
Subject: IRC quake-quack flame war/reminder
I'd like to remind some of us that most of this stuff by far isn't
a topic of doom-editing.
As there probably aren't many *advanced DOOM editing* topics left,
I won't mind any more or less uselful QUAKE related rumors.
Nevertheless I recommend moving this flame war about so-called
"missed opportunities" to private e-mail. If you want to ask
questions to Id employees, ask them at idsoftware.com. They
probably won't answer real questions anyway, but at least waste
of bandwidth is minimized.
Thanks for understanding.
B.
------------------------------
From: Denis.Moeller@kiel.netsurf.de (Denis)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 10:33 GMT
Subject: re: DOOM PACKETS ...
>> Ditto for monsters spawning on level 30 of DOOM II. Thus, all this is
>> not random. Does anyone have any other theories?
This cool thing is far from random. In fact they will come out in order
of the landing-points. I noticed that by editing the last level for Obituary.
There are 3 points and monsters just come to one to another.
>> Mine is that
>> deathmatch respawning and monster spawning is determined somehow by the
>> players actions, possibly even determined by the direction the player is
>> facing at the time, and or position in the level...
It's kinda strange, the same machines and config will produce exactly the
same start-up-points of us in deathmatch.
I think this number is not produced by checking both players, because
if one of the player leaves you can respawn by single player as well.
cya
Denis
[] Denis Moeller, author of NWT v1.3 and TiC's WAD Reviews. []
[] Just play our Doom (2) Add-Ons: Sudtic, Teutic, Obtic. Thanks. []
------------------------------
From: "C. Sheldon" <sheldonc@acy.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 07:20:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Quake System Architecture (was: re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers)
On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Murray Chapman wrote:
>
> > what their questions were geared for, we wanna know how its gonna PLAY,
> > we don't care how it works, as long as it does, we don't care what kinda
> > network bullshit they put in, as long as we can PLAY it. If that makes us
> > losers then well.....I'm proud to be a loser.
>
> Hi there
>
> Well, pardon me! I assumed we were in doom-editing, the high-end mailing
> list for discussing advanced editing techniques and the internals of
> id software products!
>
> If you want to talk about games that you play with one hand, then fine:
> stick with IRC. You're out of line if you complain that people are
> talking about technical details in this forum, pal.
>
I'm not complaining about what THIS list is about...YOU complained, and
generalized, and called Everyone on IRC loosers because we didn't aske
the right questions.....I was simply explaining why we asked the
questions we asked. Don't call me Pal....anyone who would make sweeping
generalized,derogatory remarks about thousands of people is no Pal of mine.
- -Cliff Sheldon
- -DrWu @ #doom
------------------------------
From: AFree120@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:04:43 -0400
Subject: simple doom question
The Quake stuff is interesting but I've not learned much more about it so
here's my doom question.
In DCKv2.2 how can i add all the fast doors and fast elevators which are not
choices in dck now?
See, just a simple question.
Oh, and how do I add my ENDDOOMER file to my .wad level?Last but not least
I'm starting a DOOM NEWSLETTER E-mail me for details. I've permission from
the BIGBOYS at ID. Or at least McGee.
I'll have 6 digest size issues every year with lost of posters/buttons and
disks with the best .wads out there (From members). I'm working on the cost
of the club now. Details next week.
------------------------------
From: Steve=Cox%model=shop%Mat=Hou@bangate.compaq.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 10:46:21 CDT
Subject: DOOM PACKETS
I don't know if you guys are still interested in the DOOM PACKET
thread ... but I would like to still ask everyone again where
some more info is on this subject ....
I have read the "Unofficial LMP format Description" and as I was
afraid of ... it doesn't have some of the info I am interested in...
LMP's don't have the message strings in them ... which tells me LMP's
don't have one nessassry data type I would need to echo messages to
deathmatch players from outside non-player clients ....
Also ... I don't see any point in sending the LMP headers more than
once or twice ... since this is 12 to 13 bytes of data that should never
change after the start of a game ... maybe I am wrong ...
So again ... sorry to bother you guys ... But were can I find the
packet information exactly ????
Thanks again !!!!
Steve Cox
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 16:24:57 +0100
Subject: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
FROM: the list caretaker; *** A REMINDER ***
The purpose of this list is to discuss *advanced* DOOM editing techniques.
If you have a question but don't know whether it's advanced or not, and
would like to avoid the extreme embarrassment of demonstrating the extent
of your ignorance in front of your peers, you are encouraged to mail it in
the first instance to:
Steve Benner : S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk
Your question will either be answered or, if deemed suitable, forwarded to
the list. This service is offered as a potential red-face saving and
list-annoyance abatement service. Feel free to send questions at any level
on any topic of WAD editing.
**NOTE: If your questions are prefixed with the code WQ: in the subject
field (e.g. Subject: WQ: Sprites), they will be processed quicker because
they will be brought to light sooner!**
Remember also that if you want any general info about this list, you should
send mail to the list-server, thus:
To: majordomo@nvg.unit.no
Subject:
Body: info doom-editing
=====================================================================
This reminder will be posted here weekly, with the same subject title.
==
- -Steve Check out: http://cres1.lancs.ac.uk/~esasb1/doom/index.html
and "Tricks of the DOOM Programming Gurus" (SAMS: ISBN:0-672-30717-0)
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@aachen.eed.ericsson.se
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 22:02:58 +0200
Subject: Re: DOOM PACKETS
On Tue, 20 Jun 95 10:46:21 CDT, Steve Cox wrote:
> I don't know if you guys are still interested in the DOOM PACKET
> thread ... but I would like to still ask everyone again where
> some more info is on this subject ....
>
Well, this thread is (indirectly) related to Doom editing, so it is
perfectly on-topic for this list and all subscibers are supposed to
be interested in that. So please go on... ;-)
> LMP's don't have the message strings in them ... which tells me LMP's
> don't have one nessassry data type I would need to echo messages to
> deathmatch players from outside non-player clients ....
>
Hmmm... I didn't check, but I assume that you are right. The LMP-like
info in the doom packets is probably embedded in another structure which
supports the messages.
> Also ... I don't see any point in sending the LMP headers more than
> once or twice ... since this is 12 to 13 bytes of data that should never
> change after the start of a game ... maybe I am wrong ...
>
You are probably right. The Doom packets are similar to the LMP data,
this doesn't mean that they are identical...
> So again ... sorry to bother you guys ... But were can I find the
> packet information exactly ????
>
I'm afraid that you will not find the information anywhere except in the
packets themselves. Remember that 99% of the information in the Unofficial
Doom Specs was found by people who were curious about something and made
some experiments in order to find out how Doom was working. Some things
were not easy to find (I know it, because nearly nothing was know about
Doom when I started working on DEU), but eventually they were explained and
documented. Now it's your turn. :-)
It's a pity I'm busy with DEU 5.3 now, because it should not be too hard
to spend some time with the Unix version of Doom and tcpdump which can
filter the packets and store them in a file for examination. I think it
is the easiest way to explore the contents of the Doom packets.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: Denis.Moeller@kiel.netsurf.de (Denis)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 22:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Romero talks Quake with IRC losers
>>Now! Given that "the most exciting and gee-whiz feature of Quake is the
>>whole interactiveness of it all", I think that fundamentals of how the
>>network is stuck together is of extreme interest!
>whether he'd like to answer any of your nifty net questions.. and he ignored
>me! And he ain't answering you here.. which tells ya something.. he only
>INTENDED to answer the kinda questions we were already asking.. meaning YOU
>would have been the one wasting his time with questions he had no intention
>of answering in the first place.
Oh my god, don't waste OUR time posting private crap!
Hey kids, move this to private - PLEASE! EOD.
cya
Denis
[] Denis Moeller, author of NWT v1.3 and TiC's WAD Reviews. []
[] Just play our Doom (2) Add-Ons: Sudtic, Teutic, Obtic. Thanks. []
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #320
**********************************
