Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 351
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #351
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Wednesday, 19 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 351
Ammo & Stuff
Re: vis plane overflow
Re: 'Split' sector bug
Re: Visplane Overflow
Re: How Much Stuff
Re: 'Split' sector bug
Re: vis plane overflow
Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: Ammo & Stuff
Easy way to add textures? Music?
Re: MIDI Files
Re: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: How Much Stuff
Re: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: MIDI Files
Re: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: How Much Stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scott Jordan <sjordan@wins0.win.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 19:45:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Ammo & Stuff
Ok, there seems to be enough interest. We'll continue working on it to
get something properly tested and presentable, then turn it loose. In the
meantime, it's clunky and not getting sent out. Pride in workmanship and
all...
Work to date has concentrated on single player issues. IWADDUMP.EXE does a
good job of listing the things (and everything else!) associated
with a level, provided the WAD isn't huge. You can use it for a lot of
things. All I've been trying to do is develop an analytical test method
(yes, I sound like an engineer and I am) to determine if the amount of
health, armor, and ammo is something close to appropriate for the number
and type of monsters on a level. Please understand, it's not like a litmus
test. More like a breathalyzer: if you're way out, it'll let you know.
=======================================================================
Still hoping to hear from an id rep on how they decide how much health,
ammo, and armor to put in a level.
========================================================================
Scott
*Purveyor of CMOS Epi*
------------------------------
From: Stoney001@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 22:06:58 -0400
Subject: Re: vis plane overflow
I am always approaching the vis plane limit in my wads. Would it be possible
to create a utility that displays the number of vis planes the player "sees"
in a small window on screen? I think this would be a useful wad
designing/optimizing tool.
Stoney
------------------------------
From: Jim Kennedy <jimk@oeonline.oeonline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 01:40:36 -400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 'Split' sector bug
On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
> > I've recently started getting a strange bug in a deathmatch wad I've
> >been building. A couple of the sectors have started getting 'split' by
> >thin triangular black slices that are apparently not in any sector. The
> >base of the triangle is one linedef of the sector, and the vertex is the
> >player. If a triangle is lined up right with another sector, it is even
'...the vertex is the player'? I'm not sure I understand that.
> >possilbe to 'fall in' and get trapped. The strange thing is that I have
That's sounds a little like what happened in a wad I created, where
weird lines of walls (? hard to describe) came out from what was supposed
to be a wall, separating an upper area from a lower one. If I moved
near this wall area, I could fall into it, and not be able to get out
or move into the lower area (same level after falling).
I found that I needed to put texture on the right surfaces....I use DEU52,
it allows; upper, lower, normal placement of textures on a sidedef.
This is an area I've had some trouble understanding...which areas needed
textures, when one sidedef is higher than the other (same linedef).
I'm not sure I'm being clear here.
This may not help you, but I thought I'd mention it since the getting
trapped effect was the same, and it sounded familar.
......jimk@oeonline.com
------------------------------
From: mustaine@usa.net (Tom Mustaine)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 01:15:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Visplane Overflow
>Taking a cue from the first level of Thy Flesh Consumed, I decided to put
>the logo of my favorite band (Metallica) in one of my WAD's. I set it up to
>start out flush against the ceiling. When you flipped a switch, it would
>lower to 8 pixels above the nearest floor. It looks GREAT, but when you
>look at it from a certain angle (like from the left side of the 'M'), Doom
>would crash and give me this error message:
>
>R_DrawPlanes: visplane overflow (129)
>
>HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are too many visiple two sided linedefs in view. The doom engine uses
the painters algorithm to draw the screen which means it draws the furthest
to the closest. There are a certian number of Maximun visible 2 sided lines
before the engine runs out of visible "planes" to draw a surface on. You
need to eliminate extra 2 sided linedefs or add a full impassible linedef at
some point where a lot of planes are in view, thus the engine starts at the
nearest impassible line and draws from that, giving less visible planes for
the engine to deal with.
+--------------------------------------------------+
| Tom Mustaine - Clock Paradox - Paradox - TWM2029 |
+--(http//:usa.net/~mustaine/(Coming Soon!).html)--+
------------------------------
From: Chainsaw <jimu@allmalt.cs.uwm.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 07:04:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: How Much Stuff
> It would be interesting to run your program on a large
> set of single player/co-op WADs and a set of deathmatch WADs and see what kind
> of numbers you get. I'd say that DM WADs will have a greater spread of ratios
> since I think there is more variability in such WADs. In fact these ratios
> may not mean much for DM-- ...
I could be useful for identifying DM wads that were designed for the original
DM rules (i.e., TONS of health/ammo) and thus inappropriate for altdeath.
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (drake o'brien)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 04:12:46 PST
Subject: Re: 'Split' sector bug
>> I've recently started getting a strange bug in a deathmatch
>>wad I've been building. A couple of the sectors have started
>>getting 'split' by thin triangular black slices that are apparently
>>not in any sector. The base of the triangle is one linedef of
>>the sector, and the vertex is the player. If a triangle is
>>lined up right with another sector, it is even possilbe to 'fall in'
>>and get trapped. The strange thing is that I have
> If I understand you correctly, I'd say this is not due to any node
>generation error, but due to the DooM engine fixed point math. This kind
>of visual effect is not that uncommon. It's present in E1M1 of DooM I if
>you look (from the right spot) across the acid area at the imp(s) on the
>ledge as you enter the acid area. However, this effect does not move with
>the player. If the problem you have does move with the player, then there
>probably is some kind of nodes error.
Hmm, the 'fall in' clue suggests this problem is more serious than the
innocuous 'sliver effect', yet it might not be a nodebuilder's fault. If
the relevant sidedef of the offending linedef is pointed at a lower sector
somewhere else on the map then you will get the visual equivalent of the
'sliver effect', the sliver will move with the player at the apex of the
triangle and the offending linedef at the base, and when you enter the
botched sector area you can 'fall in'. Since the triangle or 'sliver' takes
on the properties of the sector the offending sidedef is pointed at, if that
sector is dark the sliver will be dark. If you put an imp in the botched
sector the imp will appear tiny. In this case when you run an error check
on the map you'll get a message 'sector not closed'.
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 08:52:01 CDT
Subject: Re: vis plane overflow
>I am always approaching the vis plane limit in my wads. Would it be possible
>to create a utility that displays the number of vis planes the player "sees"
>in a small window on screen? I think this would be a useful wad
>designing/optimizing tool.
As soon as someone discovers exactly what constitutes a "vis plane"
then perhaps such tool could be written, though it would be computationally
expensive. Besides, DooM already tells you when you have too many. It's
too bad that id didn't increase the limit for vis planes when they did the
128 --> 256 linedef limit increase.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 14:27:36 +0100
Subject: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
FROM: the list caretaker; *** A REMINDER ***
The DOOM-editing list is not a list aimed at newcomers to DOOM-editing. Its
purpose is to provide discussions on *advanced* DOOM editing techniques.
Many of its members are not tolerant of repeated "beginners" questions.
There is much that beginners can learn from the list, however, and we would
like the list to be of use to as many subscribers as possible.
In the past, there has been much moaning about new subscribers asking what
old-hands feel to be "typical newbie questions", usually in ignorance of
the fact that the topic has been discussed to death previously. This leaves
newcomers in a quandary: to post or not to post?
Well, help is at hand. The "Beginners Questions Service" can act as a
buffer between you and the higher echelons of the DOOM-editing elite,
conceited lot that they are. It works like this: if you have a question but
don't know whether it's advanced or not, and would like to avoid any
potential embarrassment from asking the question in front of the whole
list, you are encouraged to mail it in the first instance to:
Steve Benner : S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk
Your question will either be answered or, if deemed appropriate for the
list, forwarded to it. This service is offered as a potential red-face
saving and list-annoyance abatement service: there is absolutely no
requirement on anyone to make use of this service, but doing so may get you
an answer quicker than sending to the list, and can potentially save you
from finding yourself in the middle of a flaming. But then, as a DOOMster,
you can take a toasting, right?
**NOTE: If your questions are prefixed with the code WQ: in the subject
field (e.g. Subject: WQ: Sprites), they will be processed quicker because
they will be brought to light sooner!**
Remember also that if you want any general info about this list, you should
send mail to the list-server, thus:
To: majordomo@nvg.unit.no
Subject:
Body: info doom-editing
=====================================================================
This reminder will be posted here weekly, with the same subject title.
==
- -Steve Check out: http://cres1.lancs.ac.uk/~esasb1/doom/index.html
and "Tricks of the DOOM Programming Gurus" (SAMS: ISBN:0-672-30717-0)
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 08:54:55 CDT
Subject: Re: Ammo & Stuff
>Work to date has concentrated on single player issues. IWADDUMP.EXE does a
^
^
I'd suggest getting a different name for your analysis utility.
IWADDUMP is too generic a name for the kind of utility it is.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: AFree120@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:16:11 -0400
Subject: Easy way to add textures? Music?
I have DEUTEX and have read the doc file and I'm more confused than ever. Is
there an easier way to learn how to add textures and music files? I still
haven't read how to go about creating the right size textures in my graphics
program. Or what resolution etc. Can't I use a 3D art program like RayDream
Designer? If so what are the specs?
Also most doc's gloss over the making of a batch file to add up everything
for the reciever of the wad's. Any doc's for beginners?
If you change the sprites of the monsters does it have to be a patch
(Dehacked)? Can it just be in a wad file?
Yes, I need TEXTURES FOR IDIOTS.
------------------------------
From: "David A.R. Wallace" <dwallace@ccs.neu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:50:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Stephen Wassell wrote:
[BFG-inspired clip -- Boom!]
> This cannot be done! .wav to .mod, .mid to .wav, but definately not .wav to
> .mid. About finding .mid files (you need midi2mus to put them in Doom btw),
> there are a few usenet groups where they get posted. Look around!
>
> ------------------------------------=*=------------------------------------
> _____ __ __
> / ____)\ \ / / from Stephen Wassell Oh, what sad times are these
> \____ \ \ \/\/ / SWassell@sv.span.com when passing ruffians can say
> (_____/ \_/\_/ Try coopers.wad! "Ni" at will to old ladies.
>
>
If you can convert .mod to .mid, then you can pull it off indirectly.
Can it be done? Hmmmm...
David Wallace
------------------------------
From: myers@ms3.dseg.ti.com (Keith Myers)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 12:40:50 CDT
Subject: Re: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
If newcommers, upset you so, why don't one of you experts
put together a 'editting' faq, and distrubute it too the
list. This would solve alot of what you consider newbie
questions. People don't have to be so snobbish and rude
about sharing information. That is the whole point of
the internet and mailing lists. If new people and new editors
don't continue to join the list, then it will become stale.
Granted, newcommers should lurk on the list for a while before
posting. I am a recent newcommer, but editing is not hard
for me, as I am a programmer and draftsman. But, many people
that are trying to start could use some "friendly" advice and
help.
Regards,
Keith
Please direct any flames to my personal e-mail and not to
this list!
------------------------------
From: alberto@astrpi.difi.unipi.it (Alberto BARSELLA)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 22:17:28 DFT
Subject: Re: How Much Stuff
Scott Jordan <sjordan@wins0.win.org>:
> Before I go in to a big (and possibly boring) discussion, I wanted to
> poll the group and see what people have used to determine how many
> goodies to scatter through a WAD and to see if anyone was even interested.
>
> Any comments?
I balanced my levels by trying them and having people try them.
Usually my approach is that a level should not include enough stuff
to make it extremely easy once you know the layout. Even if you
know where and when the monsters will appear you must still have
some problem, otherwise you'll never play the level again.
After I determine approximately this amount (I play the level
and see how much damage I take.....and I certainly know the layout! :),
I can decrease it a bit if I want to make a very difficult level
or increase it for an easy level.
The placement of the stuff is also very important, I try not to put
the armors all in the same position, for example, since I don't
really like to force the player to go back to pick up items
that he was forced to leave behind because they were useless.
> The method I use has been incorporated into a program which Bill McClendon
> has been kind enough to test. It looks at how many monsters you have on a
> given degree of difficulty; totals monster damage points, health points,
> armor points, and weapon damage points; then lists the ratios of these
> with respect to monster damage points.
>
> Which sounds confusing now that I read it.
Is the placement of monsters taken into account in any way?
A "spatial density" of monsters, maybe?
> Anyway more monsters means you need more stuff. And a higher degree of
> difficuly means you need less stuff per monster. Ratios of all this can
> be useful numbers.
Depends on the monsters: sergeants usually mean 2-3 more shells
at 0 health cost unless they are all together in a room with no
cover.
> I've analysed D1 and found that id's WAD data shows some pretty
> consistent results. I use these results for WAD building.
Id's levels become extremely easy and loaded of healing stuff once
you have a general idea of the layout.
I must say that I'm a bit skeptic of the information that might
be generated by a program, because I think it will never be able
to really "evaluate" the difficulty. I wonder what happens if
you consider a level which has a quite large layout and 10 Barons,
all of them in the INITIAL room :)
Is a beta version of your program available anywhere?
Alberto
- --
Alberto Barsella | I have discovered that all Windoze problems
alberto@astrpi.difi.unipi.it | can be solved with: del windows /sxyq (4dos)
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 16:43:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
> If newcommers, upset you so, why don't one of you experts
> put together a 'editting' faq, and distrubute it too the
> list. This would solve alot of what you consider newbie
> questions.
Newcomers themselves are not the problem, the more the merrier. BUT,
before asking potentially dumkb questions to the list ("What is a WAD?"),
they should consult one of the many Doom resources that are available to
see if their question has already been answered. For example, there are
numerous Doom books that cover editing. For those who don't want to buy a
book the subscription message to doom-editing also includes a WWW site and
an FTP site that contain all major Doom documentation (FAQs and the like).
And, Steve Benner is offering on his own time a screening service for
those who have questions for the list (perhaps this address should also be
advertised in the subscription docs). If among all of those sources
(including Steve :) there is no answer to be found, then it is probably
fit material for a general post.
A large number of people on this list (including John R.) have enough
other Doom-related duties, such as maintaining documentation or
utilities, or writing levels, or just plain having a life, to sift
through a large volume of mail every day. That is the main reason that
these posting requests are in effect.
Greg Lewis
[ Posted to the list in the hopes that any others who have similar
questions or complaints are appeased. =-} ]
------------------------------
From: "C. Sheldon" <sheldonc@acy.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 17:21:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: MIDI Files
On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, David A.R. Wallace wrote:
> If you can convert .mod to .mid, then you can pull it off indirectly.
> Can it be done? Hmmmm...
>
> David Wallace
No. It Can't be done. (peroid!)
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (drake o'brien)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 12:36:54 PST
Subject: Re: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Keith Myers writes re. Steve Benner's weekly post:
>If newcommers, upset you so, why don't one of you experts
>put together a 'editting' faq, and distrubute it too the
>list. This would solve...<SNIP>
Kieth, FAQs etc. are distributed systematically to the r.g.c.d.e usenet
groups. Some people even read them. This isn't the place for that -
I've already got enough FAQs, thank you.
The doom-editing list is specifically for 'advanced doom editing
discussion'. It's a great list where most of the programmers of the
doom-editing utilities hang out and where a great deal of exploratory
discussion etc. regarding writing and using those utilities takes place.
Not all of which I can understand..., but the longer I lurk the more I
catch on. There's a lot of great stuff discussed here that even a
non-programmer like me can learn. Anyone who can find the doom-editing
mail list can find the r.g.c.d. groups and ask beginner etc. questions
there. That's what I did and still do - along with just about everyone
else on the list. We consider this mail list 'special', and aim to keep
it that way. I joined the doom-editing list when I was a beginner, just
starting out, and it was immediately clear to me that this list was
dedicated to advanced discussion. I saw absolutely no reason to be
offended by that. What reason is there to be offended by the fact that
people who've written the utilities we use, who've written the manuals we
read, etc. etc., want to keep the advanced doom-editing mail list
advanced?
I've posted to Steve Benner on a 'WQ - beginners' questions' thing twice
now, because I wasn't sure whether my topic had been discussed to death
or not. In one case my topic was new, passed on to the list, in the
other case Steve gave me a professional answer. What more could I want?
Steve provides a service at no little cost to his own time and patience.
He deserves a thank you, not a rebuke. So, Steve, thanks. Keep up the
good work.
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 17:03:20 CDT
Subject: Re: How Much Stuff
>> I've analysed D1 and found that id's WAD data shows some pretty
>> consistent results. I use these results for WAD building.
My guess is that the DooM I levels would be more consistent
with each other than the DooM II levels. Of the DooM II levels I've played
so far (I've had it 9 months or so and still haven't finished it), I've noticed
a much greater spread of difficulty (on UV level) than with DooM I.
>
>Id's levels become extremely easy and loaded of healing stuff once
>you have a general idea of the layout.
Not all of them. Have you tried MAP10 or MAP16 on UV starting
with just a pistol?
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #351
**********************************
