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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 283
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #283
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Thursday, 18 May 1995 Volume 01 : Number 283
Re: Another WAD Error
Re: Another WAD Error
Re: Lame Ripoff(s) of Trinity...
re: Another WAD Error (Part 2)
Re: Another WAD Error
light problem
Re: WQ: Save Game and Other File Formats!
Re: [Q]: BSP *bulding* details
Re: LMP in PWAD
[none]
[none]
Re: Lame Ripoff(s) of Trinity...
RE: BSP *bulding* details: Optimisation issues
Re: Announce: GRINDER1.WAD
Re: Another WAD Error
RE: BSP *bulding* details
RE: BSP *bulding* details: Optimisation issues
RE: BSP *bulding* details: Optimisation issues
Re: LMP in PWAD
Re: Another WAD Error
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Andre Arsenault <d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 21:36:34 -0300 (ADT)
Subject: Re: Another WAD Error
On Wed, 17 May 1995, ulasieben wrote:
> I am getting angry at this error, I have seen it before. Only before,
> the error only appeared when shooting at certain angles in a certain
> corner of a certain few rooms.....what IS it? The error checkers dont detect
> any lines without sides (its Doom 2, WinDEU doesn tdetect any of those) and
> I have a player 1 start. I didnt exceed anim line limits (I thought it was
> 48, not 64). Any other ideas?
> -- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
Well Evl, I have some good and some bad news. The good news is I've had
this error myself, TWICE in fact on two separate WADs. Here's the bad
news: the first time, the level had to be scrapped. Everything I tried
did nothing. I scoured the WAD for errors (much as you have) and found
none. Not a sausage. The second time, I still found no errors, but since
this was my level for TNT, I didn't want to erase it! So, I just
continued to build. When I got up enough nerve to shoot into that part
of the room, nothing happened! The error was gone! I offer no
explanations, because I have none. In the case of the first error, it was
triggered by any movement, mouse or keyboard (didn't try joystick, don't
use one). The second error was only triggered by shooting a specific wall.
My suggestion to you is: either continue with the level as if there is no
error, or burn incense and candles while chanting aloud to the Gods of
DOOM, namely the id employees. Whichever you choose is up to you... :)
Best of luck, this one has me stumped.
============ Andre Arsenault ------- d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca ============
%%%%%%%%%%% "You know, if you shoot me you're liable to lose a %%%%%%%%%%%%
%%%%%%%%%%%%% lot of those humanitarian awards..." -Fletch %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
=============================================================================
------------------------------
From: matthew@hitech.com.au (Matthew Smith-Stubbs)
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:41:39 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Another WAD Error
>
> >>> Ok. I am full of WAD errors these ays :). Here is this one:
> > [lots of cutting]>
> >don't think it is big enough to cause a BLOCKMAP overflow (to be clear:
> > Have you ruled out all the things that can cause a crash at the
> >start: line with no sides, more than 64 animated lines, etc?
> There isnt a blockmap problem. I used WARM to tell me the size of the
> blockmap, and it was reported as follows:
[WARM report deleted]
> I am getting angry at this error, I have seen it before. Only before,
> the error only appeared when shooting at certain angles in a certain
> corner of a certain few rooms.....what IS it? The error checkers dont detect
> any lines without sides (its Doom 2, WinDEU doesn tdetect any of those) and
> I have a player 1 start. I didnt exceed anim line limits (I thought it was
> 48, not 64). Any other ideas?
> -- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
Now that you mention it, I remember havin this sort of error in one WAD I
did. If you went up these stairs and shot and the seargeant, the whole thing
would blow up. If you ran past the monster, or waited for it to move to
a different spot it didn't crash. Is this any help ?
- --
Matthew Smith-Stubbs +-----------------------------------------------+
Email: matthew@hitech.com.au | Sometimes, I wish Windows95 were a lemming; |
IRC Nick: Elwood_B |but then I just hurl it off a cliff regardless.|
Web page: Coming RSN... +-----------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
From: Steven Lorch <lorchs@wasc.egginc.com>
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 21:18:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Lame Ripoff(s) of Trinity...
Greets,
I too have seen the Trinity ripoff at ftp.cdrom.com,
but in a file name CATHED.ZIP. The .txt file shows it to be from
the same "triper666" fuck. What say we nail down his address and do
a little mail floodin'. ;>
-Lorchs
p.s. - Thank god for those of you valiantly attempting to return this
list to it's glorious past (Fenske, Benner, l-sieben , etc...).
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 23:53:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: re: Another WAD Error (Part 2)
Third, others have seen it:
Andre Arsenault and Matthew-Smith stubbs, so it isnt just me. I would sure
like to
know why one is linked to shotoign weapons,a dn why other one crashes
onnstart. Wait
now that I think about it, there was a third time this happened. I was making my
RADIUS1.WAD, and the central arena crashed on startup. I added player 2-4
starts,
problem went away. However, I have 4 player starts and 4 DM starts in the newest
occurance of the error. As to gun shots, I thnk I have ruled out some sort
of sprite
error because it happens with RL and the shotgun. I wonder what it could be?
Raphael
said I had crashed the DOS Extender of Doom (DOS4GW). I have 8 meg of
memory, so that
isn't the problem either. Anyone else have an idea?
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 23:52:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Another WAD Error
>On Wed, 17 May 1995, ulasieben wrote:
>
>> I am getting angry at this error, I have seen it before. Only before,
>> 48, not 64). Any other ideas?
>> -- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
>
>Well Evl, I have some good and some bad news. The good news is I've had
> [bobbitized]
>Best of luck, this one has me stumped.
Ok. What is weird about this error is that i got it the first time on
a big 500K PWAD. It appeared when I move to a certain part of the level, and
when I shot at a certain angle in the opposite corner. After ther error, the
mouse is severly scrwed (Windoze doesnt want to load, and editors dont recognize
dbl clicks). The secnd time of the error is now, in my second TNT level. This
level has just begun, and size is like 200K, only because of the large "filler"
areas. I cant continue as if no error existed becase this time, the level plain
refuses to load. This error is the weirdest and worst I have seen. I have tried
BSP (it comes with DCK), WinDEU's nodes I think, WARM, no help. therefore, I
don't
think the error is nodes/blockmpa of some sort. Second, size shouldnt be a
problem
because of the 2 different sizes (500/200K).
(continued in another message....for some dumb reason I cant send long
messages
anymore ARRRGGGHHH)
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: spielbauer@ohf015.hf.op.dlr.de
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 08:53:28 MEZ
Subject: light problem
In my latest version of vivaldi.wad I tried to play a little bit
with light effects. I tried to use the "WR switch light to dimmest neighbour"
and "WR switch light to brightest neighbour", but the only thing
worked was the switching of light level to 0 or 255. I tried to take care
that there are neighbour sectors with higher and lower light levels
but walking over the line had no effects.
Any idea what's wrong ??
Snider
- -------------------------------------------------------
Rainer.Spielbauer@dlr.de
------------------------------
From: jeffj@mcs.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 02:11:11 -0500
Subject: Re: WQ: Save Game and Other File Formats!
Bernd,
Thanks for the helpful tidbits... I'll be releasing a program
in the near future, and I may be able to answer a LOT of your
questions... Also, never thought about the (C) infring... either!
Thanks for the light!
I'm going after the WWW site now....
JeffJ@mcs.com
------------------------------
From: "Luc Cluitmans" <L.J.M.Cluitmans@ele.tue.nl>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:27:12 MET-2DST
Subject: Re: [Q]: BSP *bulding* details
(Bernd Kreimeier wrote:)
> I've got a question to all those on this list who have dealt
> with the several node builders for WAD's (programming, debugging,
> bug fixes, porting, but **NOT** usage).
I have no experience in the node building process itself but I've
dived into the nodes/ssectors/segs deeper recently. I'm writing a
program to investigate the ins and outs of wad levels (working title
dr WADson), including looking at nodes.
> With upright dismay, I had to realize that the SSECTORS entries
> are far from being convex polygons. In fact, there are several
> SSECTORS containing only 1 SEG. I somehow expected that the
> edges created along partition lines might be missing (although,
> earlier on, I assumed that floors and ceilings are rendered as
> convex SSECTORS, not non-convex SECTORS), but in this case each
> SSECTOR needs at least **2** SSEGS (allowing for either 1 or two
> gaps, due to missing partition line edges).
No. An ssector can contain one SEG, with all other sides being
(extended) node partition lines (and hence being not stored
directly).
[stuff deleted]
> SEG1 - edge along partition line - SEG3 - SEG2 -+
> ^ |
> | |
> +---------------------------------------------+
>
> **NOT** e.g.:
>
>
> SEG1 - edge - another edge - SEG2 -+
> ^ |
> | |
> +--------------------------------+
Sorry, this assumption is wrong. The second case occurs very often
(with even more than 2 partition edges). The only thing you can be
sure of not to encounter is 'no SEGs at all'. It can be worse on the
border of a level. For my computations I consider the four sides of
the level's bounding box as partition edges as well.
> Thesis: the missing edges in each SSECTOR are LINEDEFS w/o middle,
> upper and lower - nothing to draw for walls, no need to keep them
> within the BSP.
>
> Am I right?
No. The missing edges are simply node partition lines, but you have
to do quite some calculations to find the places where partition
lines intersect each other and form a 'virtual vertex' for the
ssector.
Luc.
------------------------------
From: martin.rudolph@jrc.it (Martin Rudolph)
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 09:13:51 +0200
Subject: Re: LMP in PWAD
>
> How can I put an lmp into a PWAD? What program will do it?
>--
>| Fidonet : John Orazem 1:250/348
>| Internet: John.Orazem@horizon.tor250.org
>
>
Download DeuTex, dismantle your PWAD, put your LMP into the right DIR, edit
the DeuteX control file, build the new PWAD and ... Whooooosh ... finished.
regards
martin
|-----> Martin P. W. Rudolph <-----| "Live's a piece of shit, if you
look at it"
|-------> rudolph@ei.jrc.it <------| The Monty Python Troup
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:38:17 +0100
Subject: [none]
Approved: ASDF
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 02:02:34 -0500
Message-Id: <199505180702.CAA05826@kitten.mcs.com>
Subject: Re: WQ: Save Game and Other F...
To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)
Ok, so the best thing to do is simlpy change the texture name
to point to the 'BEST' comparison in HERETIC, right? In you
honest Opinion, again! As you can tell, we'll be releasing a
conversion program soon, and access to a 16 node BBS for
serial play... Thanks for all help!
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:36:08 +0100
Subject: [none]
Approved: ASDF
Date: Wed, 17 May 95 13:32:20 CDT
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Message-Id: <9505171832.AA05283@rocke>
To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
Subject: Re: BLOCKMAP special effects?
>I've just finished the descending stairs part, and I have forgotten
>who it was that posted the DNSTAIRS wad. Can you help me?
>I'm very grateful for all the help I received from this list so far.
I have that a Sean Malloy (malloy@crash.cts.com) posted the
DNSTAIRS.WAD.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: joost schuur <joost.schuur@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:09:58 +0200 (MESZ)
Subject: Re: Lame Ripoff(s) of Trinity...
On Wed, 17 May 1995, Steven Lorch wrote:
> Greets,
> I too have seen the Trinity ripoff at ftp.cdrom.com,
> but in a file name CATHED.ZIP. The .txt file shows it to be from
> the same "triper666" fuck. What say we nail down his address and do
> a little mail floodin'. ;>
> -Lorchs
i checked his .txt file and he does claim to have gotten the file from
a shareware collection without a further note of who it was from. he also
said he significantly modified it (made it bigger) and the original
authors .txt file specifically said that other authors were allowed to make
modifications. in this case i don't see that much of a problem. he should
merely change the name of the .wad.
</j>
sig: come home, all is forgiven. joost.schuur@student.uni-tuebingen.de
------------------------------
From: Olivier <montanuy@lsun75.lannion.cnet.fr>
Date: 18 May 95 11:16:06+0200
Subject: RE: BSP *bulding* details: Optimisation issues
> - partition lines cut just any sector that they manage to go through.
Inside the bounding box of the parent node of the current one.
> a given SIDEDEF can be cut by t(w)o partition lines, and thus end-up
> 1 A B 2
> +====+-----+=========+
> | /
> | / 1,2 vertices from map editing
> | / A,B, vertices from BSP building
> | / line 12 is LineDef
> |/ line AB is LineSeg
> + CA and CB go along partition lines
> C
>This would be a minimal SSECTOR containg one SEG, right?
yeah, that's a good example.
>disturbed me was the question what vertex C is all about.
imagine vertex C as the top of a triangle. both side of the
triangle get used as partition lines, and there you are.
Remark 1:
Is there *any* reason for partition lines to be derived from
SEGS? I would bet that for the top nodes, there is little chance that
a SEG is optimal for partitionning.
Remark 2:
The fact that a set of linedefs is convex is enough for it to be a leaf
of the node tree. The fact that those linedefs belong to different
sectors is completely irrelevant.
However, it probably can be demonstrated that unless your map has a bug,
any convex set of lines contains only lines from one sector. Anyone to
demonstrate this? if it is false, then DEU 5.21, DEU 5.3 and BSP 1.x are
in trouble.
Remark 3:
Is there any tool to judge que quality of Nodes trees?
(Raphael Quinet answered: DOOM. thanx for playing)
I'm trying to build a Visual Basic shit to display nodes, so that at
least we can judge. but VB crashes... as usual.
>Uhhmm? You have to do horizontal constant z depth scanlines for
>floors/ceilings. You go along all the linedefs to determine
>the first and last x/column indices for each y/row slice of the
>floor. You need to know all linedefs of a SECTOR. You do the
>SECTORS back-to-front (painter's algo, perhaps inefficient,
>but DOOM does, see visplane post/the quoted observation by
>Ted Vessenes). That's "by SECTOR".
I would bet that the Floor/ceiling drawing is just a consequence
of drawing the walls. in a column, all the part that isn't wall is
a floor or ceiling. above a wall is ceiling, below a wall is floor.
except for 2s lines where it gets a bit perverted.
Of course, you have to take a look at the SECTOR entry... but only
to know the upper and lower boundary of every Wall.
Now, Elias told me that the floors were not done by vertical scans,
and I'd believe anything he saiz, even contradicted by John Carmak!
(John Carmak never looked his own code like Elias did :-)))
So... well, I don't know what to think. who cares? it works.
Olivier
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 08:26:53 CDT
Subject: Re: Announce: GRINDER1.WAD
>Look, I'm terribly sorry for the noise my announcement caused on this
>list. When I was more active here (6+ months ago), add-on announcements
>were ok. Rest assured that I've been sufficiently repremanded by the
>moderator. :)
It seems to me that it isn't necessary to ban all WAD announcements.
I figure that advanced editing also includes artistic aspects of WAD creation
so if someone feels he has a novel construct in a WAD, why not announce the
WAD and point out the interesting features? Now perhaps a full WAD authoring
text file is not appropriate, but some kind of note would be okay. But I
also wouldn't want to see a flood of WAD announcements either.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: afn03713@freenet.ufl.edu
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 09:08:11 PDT
Subject: Re: Another WAD Error
On Wed, 17 May 1995 23:52:38 -0500 (CDT) ulasieben wrote:
> Ok. What is weird about this error is that i got it the first time on
>a big 500K PWAD. It appeared when I move to a certain part of the level,
and
>when I shot at a certain angle in the opposite corner. After ther error,
the
>mouse is severely screwed (Windoze doesn't want to load, and editors don't
recognize
>dbl clicks). The second time of the error is now, in my second TNT level.
This
>level has just begun, and size is like 200K, only because of the large
"filler"
>areas. I cant continue as if no error existed because this time, the level
plain
>refuses to load. This error is the weirdest and worst I have seen. I have
tried
>BSP (it comes with DCK), WinDEU's nodes I think, WARM, no help. therefore,
I
>don't
>think the error is nodes/blockmap of some sort. Second, size shouldn't be a
>problem
>because of the 2 different sizes (500/200K).
> (continued in another message....for some dumb reason I cant send long
>messages
>anymore ARRRGGGHHH)
> -- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
>
Hi guys. This is just a guess from a list lurker, but it is possible that
this comes from a bug in the doom exe or eve in DOS4GW itself. It appears
that system memory is being overlaid, which would point to a bug in the
program or dos extender. Just something to think about, it mat not be you
wads at all.
- -------------------------------------
Name: Dean
E-mail: afn03713@freenet.ufl.edu
Date: 05/18/95
Time: 09:08:11
This message was sent by Chameleon
- -------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 08:34:09 CDT
Subject: RE: BSP *bulding* details
>This is the part that took me some time. See ASCII art:
>
> 1 A B 2
> +====+-----+=========+
> | /
> | / 1,2 vertices from map editing
> | / A,B, vertices from BSP building
> | / line 12 is LineDef
> |/ line AB is LineSeg
> + CA and CB go along partition lines
> C
Now I *see* what you were really talking about. Since 1-SEG
polygons can be bounded by several partition lines, you would probably have
to search a good part of the node tree to find which partition lines are
the bounding ones. Or maybe you can figure out which lines they are just
from the branch structure.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 09:16:16 CDT
Subject: RE: BSP *bulding* details: Optimisation issues
>Remark 1:
> Is there *any* reason for partition lines to be derived from
> SEGS? I would bet that for the top nodes, there is little chance that
> a SEG is optimal for partitionning.
Generally speaking, a partition line can be defined by any pair
of (x,y) points in the x,y plane, but testing all pairs of points in the
plane would take at least id Two Weeks to compute. So using the list of
SEGS as candidate partition lines limits the search space to a reasonable
size. You are definitely right that though the SEGS list provides good
partition lines, they are far from optimal. I have a version of my WARM
program that tests all pairs of vertices for use as partition lines. This
results in amazingly few SEGS splits, but the compute time is *significantly*
longer.
>Remark 2:
> The fact that a set of linedefs is convex is enough for it to be a leaf
> of the node tree. The fact that those linedefs belong to different
> sectors is completely irrelevant.
DooM uses the lowest # SEG in an SSECTOR to determine the sector to
draw for the node leaf. All the other SEGS are irrelevant in this regard.
> However, it probably can be demonstrated that unless your map has a bug,
> any convex set of lines contains only lines from one sector. Anyone to
> demonstrate this? if it is false, then DEU 5.21, DEU 5.3 and BSP 1.x are
> in trouble.
For normal cases this is correct; any convex collection of lines
derives from just one sector. For special effects (invisible platform,
deep pool, etc), this is not the case.
>Remark 3:
> Is there any tool to judge que quality of Nodes trees?
> (Raphael Quinet answered: DOOM. thanx for playing)
Good answer. I'd qualify that by saying DooM on a 386.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: tbone@proex.com (Bill Ballmaier)
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 09:46:12 -0400
Subject: RE: BSP *bulding* details: Optimisation issues
Can someone take me off this list (or tell me how to get off it) ? Thanks.
T-Bone
------------------------------
From: Denis.Moeller@kiel.netsurf.de (Denis)
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 17:28 GMT
Subject: Re: LMP in PWAD
>Download DeuTex, dismantle your PWAD, put your LMP into the right DIR, edit
>the DeuteX control file, build the new PWAD and ... Whooooosh ... finished.
Oh my god. Get NWT, load your WAD, create a resource at a position you
want and insert your lmp.
It can't be easier, sorry Olivier, but for those little things DeuTex
is too awkward and involved. Maybe WinTex...
NO, I don't want to start another war about programs... :)
cya
Denis
------------------------------
From: johnsond@std.teradyne.com (Dean Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:52:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Another WAD Error
Andre Arsenault <d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> sez...
> On Wed, 17 May 1995, ulasieben wrote:
>
> > I am getting angry at this error, I have seen it before. Only before,
> > the error only appeared when shooting at certain angles in a certain
> > corner of a certain few rooms.....what IS it?
> Well Evl, I have some good and some bad news. The good news is I've had
> this error myself, TWICE in fact on two separate WADs. Here's the bad
> news: the first time, the level had to be scrapped. Everything I tried
> did nothing. I scoured the WAD for errors (much as you have) and found
> none. Not a sausage.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I move that we hereby dub this, the Sausage error. =)
- -D
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #283
**********************************
