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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 225
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #225
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Wednesday, 29 March 1995 Volume 01 : Number 225
Re: DOOM 1 -vs- DOOM 2
Re: re. visplanes?
Romero
Solid windows
Re: DEBUNK alert
Re: Tag 666
Re: Viewpoint height?
Re: UDS 1.666 errors
Re: DEBUNK alert
RE: Re: Viewpoint height?
Drawing order and visplanes?
Another DEBUNK alert
Re: Romero
Sound
cure for HOM in transparent doors
Re: Sound
Re: UDS 1.666 errors
graphic enhancement
Re: Things snap to 16x16
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Elson <jlelson@utdallas.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:05:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: DOOM 1 -vs- DOOM 2
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Steve Benner wrote:
> At 12:16 pm 28/3/95, Jim Elson wrote:
> >
> >I'm not sure about specific missions in Doom 1. However, I understand
> >that the tags 666 and 667 will only work on MAP07 in Doom 2. Of course,
> >the tag 666 will work in Doom 1 (I ran into it once in a Doom1 I was
> >converting to Doom2). BTW, is this info in the Unoffical Specs?
> >
>
> No info in the UDS. Tags should work in a similar way in DOOM1 and DOOM2
> surely? Would the exe really bother checking whether it was running as 1 or
> 2?? hmmm... s'pose so as it's MAP07 in 2 and E1M8 in the other... Still odd
> though, don't ya think?
No, the exe does determine if it's 1 or II. Maps which have a "exit
to secret level/level 9" tagged line will send you back to Map01 in
Doom II except for level 15 and 31. This and the 666/667 tags seem
to be the main difference in the way the engine handles linedefs
between 1 and II.
- --Jim
============================================================================
James L Elson: |<o When you stare into the abyss too long o>|
School of Arts & Humanities |<o the abyss stares back into you. o>|
University of Texas-Dallas | --Nietzsche-- |
------------------------------
From: Jim Elson <jlelson@utdallas.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:00:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: re. visplanes?
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Steve Benner wrote:
> At 1:08 pm 28/3/95, Jim Elson wrote:
> >I had some lettering on the ground: B B Q. I was getting serious
> >visiplane crashes. I had made the letters rather cursive.
> >
> >Interestingly these letters were NOT visible at the spots where it was
> >crashing:
> >
> > ______
> > / \ BBQ
> > / \
> > | | * = 5 pointed star
> > | * | <==== raised platform
> > \ /
> > \______/
> >
> > X X = spot where game crashed
> >
> >
> >(Pardon the poor art-work) So, you see the crash occured even
> >when the lettering was hidden by the raised platform. I solved
> >the problem by making the lettering more blockish (removing lines).
>
> Hmmm... a map like this will probably have a lot of things carved up by the
> nodes builder: lots of SSegs visible here, I'd bet. By "hidden" I assume
> you mean that the floor (and therefore the effects of the letter sectors)
> is hidden. The engine will still be looking through these ssegs, yes?
Yes, the platform has a floor of 70, while the rest is at 0. I'm not sure
about what the nodes builder did. I explained to myself by noting that
each line in the lettering defines a plane even though it is not visible.
Hope this helps.
- --Jim
============================================================================
James L Elson: |<o When you stare into the abyss too long o>|
School of Arts & Humanities |<o the abyss stares back into you. o>|
University of Texas-Dallas | --Nietzsche-- |
------------------------------
From: jefross@ix.netcom.com (Jeff Ross)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:32:10 -0800
Subject: Romero
Did Romero pst a list of official linedefs and objects? Can somebody
repost this please?
------------------------------
From: setc@together.net (Ross Carlson)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 22:05:46 -0500
Subject: Solid windows
I must have missed the start of this thread, but what is a "solid window"?
What is it used for? For a level I am working on, the ability to place a
transparent texture on an upper or lower texture portion of a linedef would
be very useful. Is that at all related to the solid window thing?
- -Ross
______________________________________________________________________
| |
| Ross A. Carlson - setc@together.net |
| "Trials & Tribulations" Super-Wad Home Page: |
| http://together.net/~setc/thewad.html |
| My home page: http://together.net/~setc/index.html |
|______________________________________________________________________|
| |
| It will be a great day when our schools have all the money they |
| need, and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber. |
|______________________________________________________________________|
------------------------------
From: setc@together.net (Ross Carlson)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 22:05:49 -0500
Subject: Re: DEBUNK alert
>> etc... have fabulous uses. One question, though....I tried to put a crushing
>> ceiling in my level far away from the level part, so you couldn't hear it. I
>> then replaced the sound with a machine hum I wanted. I had start crush lines
>> all around the player starts, and it did crush. I wanted the machine hum to b
>>> e
>> heard in a portion of my level, so I tried to use these extended sctors to ma
>>> ke
>> the crusher sound "jump" across the level. It didn't. Is there anything I
>> can do,
>> or am I just overlooking some kind of stupid error?
What about using small thin sectors high up on a wall to act as a sound
conduit for the crusher? Look at E3M5, in the room just outside the litte
BFG room. There are thin sectors than allow the sound of your gunfire to
reach the beasties in the hidden room next door, to cause them to run
towards the teleporter. To keep the sound from reaching other areas, just
mark some of your lines as "blocks sound". Remember that each line with
that attribute only blocks 50% of the sound, so you need two in a row to cut
the sound completely.
- -Ross
______________________________________________________________________
| |
| Ross A. Carlson - setc@together.net |
| "Trials & Tribulations" Super-Wad Home Page: |
| http://together.net/~setc/thewad.html |
| My home page: http://together.net/~setc/index.html |
|______________________________________________________________________|
| |
| It will be a great day when our schools have all the money they |
| need, and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber. |
|______________________________________________________________________|
------------------------------
From: bigj@freenet.vancouver.bc.ca (Julian Fitzell)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:49:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Tag 666
In article <01HOO9K1EOKUGNEI8W@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>,
MISC335@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
> > My understanding was that the 666 tag gets activated when the last
> > "boss" creature is killed, with the DooM I bosses being the baron, cyberdemon,
> > and spider demon. I don't know which DooM II creatures would be considered
> > "bosses". I also thought that the 666 tag only worked on E?M8 levels. On
> > the other hand I don't know of anyone who ever really experimented with the
> > 666 tag.
>
> I think the Commander Keens in Doom2 operate the 666 tag.
>
>
I did some experimenting with the 666 tags a while back with little
success. In Doom it only works on level 8 and seems to be triggered by
the bosses. In Doom ][, it works in level 7 and 32. In Doom ][, there
also seems to be a 667 tag. Other than that, I couldn't figure out much
(though I didn't try all that hard, really).
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 21:21 PST
Subject: Re: Viewpoint height?
> This correlates with what I found out when I was playing with
> the swimming pool effect (what I call it anyway). You can "drop" up to
> 40 units into a floor so it almost looks like it is at eye level. But
> "dropping" 41 units caused the HOM effect, because now your viewpoint is
> below where the surrounding floors are.
I would imagine that the viewpoint is the position of the first straight
horizontal horizon line on a wall beside the player.
If you stand next to a wall, then count the number of texture vertical
pixels (not necessarily screen pixels) up to this line, you'll get it..
eh?
- - Ben
- ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
- -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 23:43:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: UDS 1.666 errors
>Steve Benner wrote:
>
>>At 8:04 pm 27/3/95, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
>>> Perhaps a list of the errors in the current UDS would be helpful.
>>>The ones I currently know about are:
>...
>>Here are some more:-
>...
>
>Good list! If and when the UDS are revised, hopefully all of these
>observations, and the many others made in the last 6 months, will be
>accounted for. Does the lack of a UDS 2.0 really bug anyone? It can't
>be anywhere near as annoying as the DEU 5.3 thing. Of course, the editors
>released recently are great, so the lack of DEU 5.3 is not as significant.
>
>Should I:
>
>(2) stop playing Dark Forces et.al. and devote many days to fixing up
>a nice UDS 2.0, up to 1.666 standards, except better.
Yeppers. UDS are very good, partly because of its writer!!! <G>
Perhaps some people with a lot of spare time should sit down and verify
everythin gin the UDS not already verified, to be sure it is all correct.
Especially revise the sections with wrong information.
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 23:52:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: DEBUNK alert
>l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben) ,in message <01HOOAXVV6G29D9IW5@MSUVX2.MEMPHIS
> .EDU>, wrote:
>
>> etc... have fabulous uses. One question, though....I tried to put a crushing
>> ceiling in my level far away from the level part, so you couldn't hear it. I
>> then replaced the sound with a machine hum I wanted. I had start crush lines
>> all around the player starts, and it did crush. I wanted the machine hum to b
>>> e
>> heard in a portion of my level, so I tried to use these extended sctors to ma
>>> ke
>> the crusher sound "jump" across the level. It didn't. Is there anything I
>> can do,
>> or am I just overlooking some kind of stupid error? ASCII Art follows:
>>
>
> Well, given the fact that it doesn't work, it could be that the engine
>computes ONE location for the crushing sound and you hear it based on how far
>away it is.
>
> Try this instead:
>
> +-----+
> | | +-+
> | 2 | |3|
> | | +-+
> +-----+
>
> And make sure that 3 is only one rectangle. If you want the sound to
>appear somewhere else, create another sector somewhere else with the same
>crusher tag.
>
> Of course, you can experiment with sound produced by disjoint sectors, or a
>REALLY LARGE crusher. That would be interesting. Find out where the sound
>is loudest in a big crusher (while idclip and iddqd-ed, of course). I'd do
>it, but I can't seem to get the sound to work under linux. (I can cat things
>into /dev/audio, oh well).
One thing that did work is making player sounds "jump" across level....
I made monsters teleport into a room too far away for sound to travel by
using disjoint sectors....The player sounds traveled across level....another
problem is that the crusher doesnt work at all sometimes.....I'm using linetype
141, not the other ones, and it doesn't crush sometimes....even If I do this:
+------------+
| |
| 1 | 1 is the player start sector....2 is the crusher
sector...
+-3----------+ 3 is the line 141...The 2 sector doesnt crush often.
| +-+
| |2|
+----------+-+
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: D.Casali@rea0808.wins.icl.co.uk
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:41:12 +0100
Subject: RE: Re: Viewpoint height?
> You can "drop" up to 40 units into a floor so it almost looks
> looks like it is at eye level.
How is this done?
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:01:14 +0200
Subject: Drawing order and visplanes?
>Ted Vessenes wrote:
>It had drawn some of the
>walls farther back and was in the middle of-- get this-- drawing the green
>slime pit surrounding the rocket launcher. Only when it's done repainting,
>the green slime pit is overpainted.
I recently had a discussion with a contributor to the BSP-FAQ on www about
using the BSP to render floors/ceilings. We both agreed on a front-to-back
traversal determining visible parts of wall columns. Do book-keeping on the
top/bottom index of already seen pixels for each screen column. As soon as all
columns are do not have a "middle" gap, stop BSP traversal.
However, he proposed a back-to-front (painters algorithm) traversal for
the floors and ceilings. I wasn't entirely convinced, but the observation
quoted above confirms he's right.
Note that you will have to store floors/ceilings "already seen" within
some stack-like buffer, until front-to-back BSP traversal is finished. (As
my adviser pointed out, you will have to store visible wall slices as well).
Now every *Subsector* that is partly within the viewing angle (even
those completely hidden by other walls/ceilings/floors) will have to be
present in this buffer. The number of sectors doesn't matter, as some of
us already concluded. I think the visplane "overflow" error indicates
that the renderer runs out of buffer space (fixed size array, probably)
during the front-to-back BSP lookup. Thus the occurence of this error
should depend on:
- level complexity (amount of subsectores needed for non-convex sectors)
- viewpoint position (amount of subsectors partly within current view)
- "range of view" (how far does the LineOfSight has to go at max,
in terms of subsectors touched)
Only the latter has not been mentioned already, I think. One really
small window allowing for one single ray to cross a lot of subsectors
"far away" should therefore provoke a "visplane overflow". Of course,
one way to prevent this would be a check on the gap's height (e.g.
if only two pixels, draw dark gray and forget it) and width (stop if
the bounding box of the remaining subtree occupies e.g. only two columns).
The latter is probably done by the DOOM renderer.
Any comments?
B.
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 11:31:26 +0100
Subject: Another DEBUNK alert
At 8:48 pm 28/3/95, ulasieben wrote:
>etc... have fabulous uses. One question, though....I tried to put a crushing
>ceiling in my level far away from the level part, so you couldn't hear it. I
>then replaced the sound with a machine hum I wanted. I had start crush lines
>all around the player starts, and it did crush. I wanted the machine hum to be
>heard in a portion of my level, so I tried to use these extended sctors to make
>the crusher sound "jump" across the level. It didn't. Is there anything I
>can do,
>or am I just overlooking some kind of stupid error?
The latter, I'm afraid. DOOM only propagates player sounds to monsters
using the "permeate the sector jump through all 2-s lines with air-gap"
rule. The propagation of sounds TO PLAYERS is handled by different rules
beyond the WAD's control. Remember that you can hear monsters on the other
side of closed doors without any sound conduits, once the engine has
decided you should know about them! DOOM uses pure physical distance to
determine the loudness of sounds and takes no account of the true geography
or sector configurations.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 12:11:26 +0100
Subject: Re: Romero
At 2:32 am 29/3/95, Jeff Ross wrote:
>Did Romero pst a list of official linedefs and objects? Can somebody
>repost this please?
**** PLEASE DON'T ******
I have mailed those who asked for this direct with the info. If any-one
else wants it, please mail me (NOT THE LIST): or better still, just read
the UDS--the info's all there.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: <jdh15@po.cwru.edu>
Date: 29 Mar 1995 12:40:08 GMT
Subject: Sound
Ummm... Lines tagged to block sound do not affect players, only
monsters. What players hear is determined by their absolute
distance (as the crow flies) from the source of the sound, and
nothing else. The "source" of a crushing ceiling is located at the
geometric center of the sector. I have done a fair amount of
expermineting along these lines.
- -j
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics.
I can assure you that mine are still greater.
-Albert Einstein
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
jdh15@po.cwru.edu http://maniac.cwru.edu/~deth/
Jeremy Holland Case Western Reserve University
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (drake o'brien)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 05:07:40 PST
Subject: cure for HOM in transparent doors
I deleted the posts I'm replying to, but they're so recent anyone
following this thread will recall. Robert Fenske Jr. meantioned two
possibilities relating to unexpected HOM occurring in the door-sides of a
transp. door: a product of nodes building &\or 1 door-side linedef
should be numbered lower than the doorfaces.
I can pretty much guarantee you the thing is product of nodes building. I
don't mess with my stained-glass doors in my finished level but I've got
a huge 2000x128 sector turned into a transparent door in a test.wad. The
2000 face is midbars so any HOM is easy to see. Right now when I load
test.wad there's no HOM. The only thing that's changed since when there
was HOM is nodes building due to meddling with vertices in other sectors
entirely. The door-face linedefs are numbered 10&11, the sides are
numbered 9&6. So the
nodes explanation accounts for how I e-mailed someone with step by step
description of how to make 'perfect' transp doors, only to find that HOM
mysteriously appeared, then vanished and reappeared, and now are gone
again. It might be that something as simple as splitting a linedef then
redoing the nodes will be enough to get rid of HOM when it occurs there
- - knowing the explanation is as good as a cure in this case.
E. Genius replied to this topic with something to the effect that if you
make the door rise turbo, and make only the top half transparent, some
kind of problem is fixed. I don't know what problem that is. When the
'HOM in doorsides' problem occurs it is visible when the door is closed,
not when the door is open (there is no HOM in doortracks...). Also, the
speed of opening makes no appreciable difference. OK, in my 2000x128
door you can stand under it when it's open & watch when it comes half
down, attempting to close. What you have is 2 infinitely thin lines
dropping (the doorfaces), which have the midbars texture on the outside &
the
ceiling texture (of the door sector) pasted on the inside (even tho' the
inside is defined to be midbars too, this is only seen from the outside
looking in thru' the transparency). The visible ceiling of the
transparent door sector, seen from the inside, is the same ceiling
texture as the adjacent ceiling textures. Therefore knowing this should
be enough to make a workable design. For example, if you wanted to make
rising cage sides from midbars wouldn't you make 2 or more quite thin
doors (4pixels or so) and have them all triggered by the same switch?
etc etc.
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 10:01:30 CST
Subject: Re: Sound
> Ummm... Lines tagged to block sound do not affect players, only
> monsters. What players hear is determined by their absolute
> distance (as the crow flies) from the source of the sound, and
> nothing else. The "source" of a crushing ceiling is located at the
> geometric center of the sector. I have done a fair amount of
> expermineting along these lines.
Strange. So if you have a large donut-shaped sector (like in Map11 of
DOOM ][), the sound is lounder if you aren't stnading in the sector but
instead standing in the middle of the circles? It would make sense, but
it seems a little peculiar.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:29:50 EST
Subject: Re: UDS 1.666 errors
l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben) ,in message <01HOORIEDI6Q9D82MC@MSUVX2.MEMPHIS
.EDU>, wrote:
> Yeppers. UDS are very good, partly because of its writer!!! <G>
> Perhaps some people with a lot of spare time should sit down and verify
> everythin gin the UDS not already verified, to be sure it is all correct.
> Especially revise the sections with wrong information.
What' do you think we've been doing for the past few days? Anyway, I don't
think we should expect Matt Fell to verify everything. Nobody has that much
free time. We should do the verifying, and provide him with the summarized
results (by posting to doom-editing).
------------------------------
From: Dave Worth <mbworth@argo.unm.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:10:09 -0700 (MST)
Subject: graphic enhancement
I am in the works of makeing all of the graphics in doom. I am doing
this by extracting the graphics usisng doomed and copying them into a
graphics package and sharpening them. The graphics look the same except
they ae abut 800 X 640 now. If you would like a copy of this graphics
patch mail me and we can make arangements. It will be done by the end of
may and I am asking $10 for the basic and $20 for the full pathc +
instructions, shareware packages that I used and other cool stuff.
Please mail me personnally rrather than through this mailing list, and by
the way,thisis not shareare or freeware! Special arrangement can be made
for those who are lacking in money or people who are willig to be a vendor!
Dave
mbworth@argo.unm.edu
------------------------------
From: David Damerell <djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 20:53:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Things snap to 16x16
On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Nicholas Mcleod wrote:
> When I use IDBSP to build my WADs, it snaps each Thing to the nearest
> 16x16 grid point.
> Is this how Doom likes its Things, or is this a 'feature' of IDBSP?
> ie: Should my editor automatically snap Things to 16x16?
That's not a bug, that's a feature. But only because it's intentional.
There's no need to snap to 16x16, DooM will be happy in any case. Why not
use BSP1.2X?
David 'Gotterdammerung' Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk.
Trinity College, Cambridge University. CUWoCS President. All Hail Discordia!
|___| Loneliness pours over you: Emptiness can pull you through. |___|
| | | Your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me... Queen, '39. | | |
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #225
**********************************
