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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 222
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #222
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Tuesday, 28 March 1995 Volume 01 : Number 222
Re: Interesting thing I discovered...
Re: Tag 666
re. visplanes?
Re: DEBUNK alert
Re: Tag 666
re: a staircase with differing floor textures!
Re: Tag 666
Re: re. stair linedefs
Re. transp doors & descending stairs
Re: Tag 666
Re: Re. transp doors & descending stairs
Re: UDS 1.666 errors
Re: That max lines thing...
Re: Tag 666
Re: DOOM 1 -vs- DOOM 2
Re: re. visplanes?
Re: DOOM 1 -vs- DOOM 2
Re: re. visplanes?
Re: re. visplanes?
Real ques. this time
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: SWassell@sv.span.com (Stephen Wassell)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 95 10:52:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Interesting thing I discovered...
In article <01HOJDB1AUGYA06HWS@ewu.edu> you write:
>
>]Has anyone here discovered that you can actually outrun the rockets
>]in DOOM (without turbo!). If you shoot a rocket while running
>]diagonally, and continue to pursue it diagonally, you will actually run
>]PASSED the rocket. This will only work in a long stretch of
>]uninterruptible land (no "things" or other abruptions). This means
>]running diagonally is considerably faster than running straight, because
>]you can't outrun a rocket running straight. Just something I discovered
>]lately. :) It was funny, because at one point I ran right passed the
>]rocket and it actually hit me from behind! I don't know if owning a P90
>]has anything to do with it.
>]
>]
>]Jordan Feinman System Operator
>]Global One, Inc. (518) 452-1465 v
>]jordanf@globalone.net (518) 452-1234 d
>
>Neat huh? I always thought it would be groovy to make a level something like
>a slot car track just for kicks so one could do some high speed strafing.
>You know, low walls and the like roughly in a series of connecting loops with
>indepenent paths such that the players cannot physically touch... Maybe a
>cyberdemon in the middle to inspire the players into a lot of movement...
I tried something like this once - a sort of shooting gallery, where
you can see your opponent on the other side, and shoot him, but not get
close. The only problems were when someone respawned on an already inhabited
side, and when the players were on different sides and ran out of ammo.
Nice idea, but doesn't quite work!
------------------------------------=*=------------------------------------
_____ __ __
/ ____)\ \ / / from Stephen Wassell Oh, what sad times are these
\____ \ \ \/\/ / SWassell@sv.span.com when passing ruffians can say
(_____/ \_/\_/ Try coopers.wad! "Ni" at will to old ladies.
------------------------------
From: "Lachlan O'Dea" <lode2@silas.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 11:15:52 +1000
Subject: Re: Tag 666
>
> My understanding was that the 666 tag gets activated when the last
> "boss" creature is killed, with the DooM I bosses being the baron, cyberdemon,
> and spider demon. I don't know which DooM II creatures would be considered
> "bosses". I also thought that the 666 tag only worked on E?M8 levels. On
> the other hand I don't know of anyone who ever really experimented with the
> 666 tag.
Isn't the 666 tag used on MAP07 of DOOM 2 to open the outside area after
all the Mancubi are dead? If so, we can at least add the Mancubus to the
list of "bosses."
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lachlan O'Dea | OS/2 Warp. Make it so.
Internet: lode@ozemail.com.au | Member of Team OS/2
Compuserve ID: 100353,650 |
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (drake o'brien)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:29:46 PST
Subject: re. visplanes?
I recently got 'visplane overflow' or 'no more visplane' (don't know the
dif either) in an area with absolute max of 26 subsectors visible. Same
area had a max of 98 2-sided linedefs visible.
I get visplane fun all the time. I'm trying to kill it now on a level
where again there's an absolute max 26 subsectors visible. Probably less.
No way is there 128 2-sided linedefs visible.
To Robert Fenske Jr.: I got transparent doors to work by following
spchaunt.wad. But I can't get rid of HOM in the door sides. I fix it so
the HOM can't be seen by making the doors thin & also making them opaque
near the sides (I've got great stained-glass doors - wierd glass that
doesn't break when hit by a rocket, but ...). I haven't got spchaunt
handy for taking apart to see if there's HOM there too (I've got a huge
collection of pwads, you'd think I'd save one I actually studied!). So
is there any trick I'm missing here?
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 21:13:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: DEBUNK alert
> Well, I just tested it, and NO you can not cause stairs to split. I was
> skeptical of this from the outset because I remember somebody's post from a
> long time ago about how much difficulty the person had creating a staircase
> that split.
Whoops, apparently my memory is not as good as I thought. Apparently I
was forced to use some other triggering method to get it to work,
although I am going to go check on it tonight because I thought for sure
I did it that way. Sorry for the misinformation.
Greg
------------------------------
From: MISC335@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:09:37 +1300
Subject: Re: Tag 666
> My understanding was that the 666 tag gets activated when the last
> "boss" creature is killed, with the DooM I bosses being the baron, cyberdemon,
> and spider demon. I don't know which DooM II creatures would be considered
> "bosses". I also thought that the 666 tag only worked on E?M8 levels. On
> the other hand I don't know of anyone who ever really experimented with the
> 666 tag.
I think the Commander Keens in Doom2 operate the 666 tag.
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (drake o'brien)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 20:02:37 PST
Subject: re: a staircase with differing floor textures!
Robert Forsman wrote: "I did it."
Wow. What a way to make your point.
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 1:46:37 CST
Subject: Re: Tag 666
> Isn't the 666 tag used on MAP07 of DOOM 2 to open the outside area after
> all the Mancubi are dead? If so, we can at least add the Mancubus to the
> list of "bosses."
Not only that, but when the arachnotrons are killed, trigger tag number 667
activates on level 7. I'm not sure exactly what it does (I don't remember if
the floor rises or lowers, how fast, etc), but I know that 667 is also a tag.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 10:30:16 +0100
Subject: Re: re. stair linedefs
At 5:27 pm 27/3/95, drake o'brien wrote:
[Switchback staircase art snipped]
>
>Switchbacks are way more complex anyhow you cut them.
>I tried your method using DEU, which doesn't quite number the lines in the
>order I draw them. But close enough so your method worked. To simplify
>your method, why not proceed as you state, drawing from the bottom-right
>corner of each proposed step sector & proceeding clockwise & in regular
>order thru' as many switchbacks as pleases, taking the switchbacks in any
>direction that pleases. Then simply flip all linedefs on the perimeter of
>the stairs block so the right-side faces out?
Yes, especially now Bob Forsman has established that the rule is "keep
looking if sector you found has already taken part".
Now we're rolling, guys...
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: a13231@mindlink.bc.ca (drake o'brien)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 01:05:39 PST
Subject: Re. transp doors & descending stairs
Andrew Morton wrote:
>I must have missed a trick or two HOW THE HELL DO YOU MAKE
>CLEAR DOORS? + how do you make solid windows? (please excuse
>the PatheticNewbieQuestion)
That's not a PNQ! (Like todays funkystairs.wad, the idea is quite
sophisticated) But as I said, I downloaded spchaunt.wad by R. Fenske Jr. &
cranked it into my editor (after playing it first!!! Jeez, gotta play it
first or you spoil the fun!) & examined how he did it. Then I copied the
method. *NOT* simple. I e-mailed some step-by-step instructions on how to
do it to E. Genius - but as I say, I still get HOM at edges (but it can be
covered) & also I won't send the 'help file' to a public forum like
doom-editing because this is R. Fenske's baby. Then, solid windows are the
same as transp doors, except the solid windows can open if you give them a
switch.
But I want to know how to make a descending staircase, that activates by a
switch! R. Fenske Jr. says it can be done. How??? I once really wanted to
make one of these but couldn't find a switch, and the UDS doesn't meantion
such a thing. Now *this* might be a PNQ but HOW THE HELL DO YOU MAKE A
DESCENDING STAIRCASE?
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 10:24:31 +0100
Subject: Re: Tag 666
At 7:46 am 28/3/95, tedv@geom.umn.edu wrote:
>> Isn't the 666 tag used on MAP07 of DOOM 2 to open the outside area after
>> all the Mancubi are dead? If so, we can at least add the Mancubus to the
>> list of "bosses."
>
>Not only that, but when the arachnotrons are killed, trigger tag number 667
>activates on level 7. I'm not sure exactly what it does (I don't remember if
>the floor rises or lowers, how fast, etc), but I know that 667 is also a tag.
>
667 raises a sector by 16(?) units to allow access to the exit switch. Oh
my God, that's yet another level of experimentation needed! ;)
Looks like we need to find out which levels they work on and what the
activation mechanism really is. I've only got 666 to work on E1M8 but I
haven't tried it on all levels (it doesn't work on E2M8 though, I know
that.) And I repeat my original mailing that it's not as simple as killing
the last of the "bosses" (whatever they are): use Cyberdemons and the tag
is activated as the last dies; use Barons and the tag is activated as the
last dies; use a mix of the two and the tag won't activate if there is a
Baron still alive but will activate as the last Baron dies, regardless of
whether there is a Cyberdemon (or Spider Demon, for that matter) still
alive. Interesting, huh?
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 11:48:34 +0100
Subject: Re: Re. transp doors & descending stairs
At 9:05 am 28/3/95, drake o'brien wrote:
>
>But I want to know how to make a descending staircase, that activates by a
>switch! R. Fenske Jr. says it can be done. How??? I once really wanted to
>make one of these but couldn't find a switch, and the UDS doesn't meantion
>such a thing. Now *this* might be a PNQ but HOW THE HELL DO YOU MAKE A
>DESCENDING STAIRCASE?
No, this is NOT a PNQ. C'mon, RF Jr -- tell us how, 'cos I can't see it either!
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 11:40:25 +0100
Subject: Re: UDS 1.666 errors
At 8:04 pm 27/3/95, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
> Perhaps a list of the errors in the current UDS would be helpful.
>The ones I currently know about are:
>
> line types 105 and 111 descriptions are switched
>
> only the cycling crushing line types lock out further sector actions
> (just mentioned by Steve Benner)
>
> creatures will not attack through 2-sided lines that do not have
> the 2S bit set; they did in v1.2 but do not in v1.666 or higher
>
Here are some more:-
Linetype 4 (W1: Door open & close) can be activated by monsters
as well as players;
Linetype 46 (GR: Door open) DOES require tagging: it can be used
on any line, as remote from the door sector as you like. Only
fist, chainsaw, bullets and shotgun shells activate this trigger;
plasma and rockets have no effect. Bullets and shot from monsters
will activate it, so this is a kinda monster-activated trigger;
The CLUNK sound attributed to certain linetypes in the UDS is not
a function of the linetype in use. It only occurs if a SW_ texture is
in use on an Sx active linetype and sounds in addition to the
sound of the linetype action;
Linetype 141 is termed a silent crusher in the UDS. This crusher travels
silently but makes a CLUNK at each end of its travel;
All self-building stairs have the crush characteristic,
not just 8-unit ones;
Linetypes 56, 94, 55 & 65 (Floor up to LIC-8, CRUSH) do not lock out
further actions, unless something gets caught in them *and* does not get
killed. Only lesser monsters are killed by this crusher, so if anything
above a Demon gets caught in them, it will be held forever. I suspect
this is a bug: if you activate a release trigger, you can hear DOOM moving
the floor forever!
Linetypes that move floors up by Short textures seem to move the floors
by 96 (or is it 78?) units if there is no short texture in use. Can anyone
confirm the way these work?
And here are some things not mentioned in the UDS:-
Different linetype actions behave differently in multi-sector groupings.
Mostly multi-sector groupings behave independently of any grouping. Grouped
floor movements, for example, will all calculate their movement end points
irrespective of any other movements that will occur at the same time. There
are two exceptions to this rule of independance:-
1. Lighting level changes.
The linetypes that switch lights to "brightest adjacent" or "dimmest
adjacent" are sensitive to sector groupings. If you tag more than one
sector to such a trigger, DOOM will look to find the *lowest numbered
sector* of the group. It is this sector's neighbours that will be examined
to determine the light level to switch *all* of the tagged sectors to. This
explainns why sometimes this action appears to have no effect.
2. Slow crushers
Slow crushers calculate their travel independantly if any other crusher
in a crusher chain, but their downward speed of movement can be affected by
anything which gets caught in them. Any slowing of one crusher in a chain
(where by "chain" I mean any crushers moving together operating from one
trigger) can be passed to any other crusher engaged in downward travel at
that time. This effect seems to occur at random (unpredicatably, anyway: I
suspect that nothing is random in DOOM, otherwise LMPs wouldn't work).
NOTE: I have not checked to see whether this effect only happens amongst
crushers which are truly linked through their tag numbers, or whether it
applies to all crushers in motion at any instance: any takers to check that
out?
I think at least some of this info is new.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 12:11:33 +0100
Subject: Re: That max lines thing...
At 7:46 pm 27/3/95, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
> My tenative conclusion is
>that the visplanes error come from viewing more than 64 subsectors at once.
>Since each subsector has a floor and a ceiling plane, the actual fault comes
>from having more than 128 planes. But I was still missing something since
>I could not 100% predict what would cause the error. Or for that matter
>what the difference is between the "no more visplanes" error and the "visplane
>overflow (#)" error. Part of my confusion may have stemmed from the fact
>that I assumed that you could always see the (sub)sector you are standing in,
>but that is not always true so it doesn't get counted.
>
I made my sectors big enough to ensure that all are in view from the
corner. I calculate 130 floor/ceiling planes in view: unless any such plane
at the same height as another (even if not continuous with it) counts as
only one, so it's not as simple as that.
Also, drake o'brien (I think it was) reports visplane errors with far fewer
sectors in view.
A number of people say they have cured visplane overflow by reducing the
complexity of their *pillars* (or other sectors), thus reducing the number
of lines in view, not the number of sectors--though I accept this may have
changed the number of SSEGS. Does anyone have an editor that will show
SSEGS? We may need one to get a better handle on this.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: Jim Elson <jlelson@utdallas.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 06:25:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Tag 666
On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, Robert Fenske Jr wrote:
> My understanding was that the 666 tag gets activated when the last
> "boss" creature is killed, with the DooM I bosses being the baron, cyberdemon,
> and spider demon. I don't know which DooM II creatures would be considered
> "bosses". I also thought that the 666 tag only worked on E?M8 levels. On
> the other hand I don't know of anyone who ever really experimented with the
> 666 tag.
Doom II: 666 = Mancubi
667 = Arachnoids
============================================================================
James L Elson: |<o When you stare into the abyss too long o>|
School of Arts & Humanities |<o the abyss stares back into you. o>|
University of Texas-Dallas | --Nietzsche-- |
------------------------------
From: Jim Elson <jlelson@utdallas.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 06:16:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: DOOM 1 -vs- DOOM 2
On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, Robert Forsman wrote:
> For those not interested in the stairs question, here's one for you.
>
> What happens if you use one of the linedefs that was introduced with 1.666
> in a normal DOOM 1 wad? Are they used anywhere in the DOOM 1 missions? Are
> the necessary sounds in the WAD? Will they work? Should we allow users with
> only registered DOOM 1 to easily use these linedefs which were obviously added
> to support DOOM 2?
I'm not sure about specific missions in Doom 1. However, I understand
that the tags 666 and 667 will only work on MAP07 in Doom 2. Of course,
the tag 666 will work in Doom 1 (I ran into it once in a Doom1 I was
converting to Doom2). BTW, is this info in the Unoffical Specs?
============================================================================
James L Elson: |<o When you stare into the abyss too long o>|
School of Arts & Humanities |<o the abyss stares back into you. o>|
University of Texas-Dallas | --Nietzsche-- |
------------------------------
From: Jim Elson <jlelson@utdallas.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 07:08:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: re. visplanes?
On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, drake o'brien wrote:
> I recently got 'visplane overflow' or 'no more visplane' (don't know the
> dif either) in an area with absolute max of 26 subsectors visible. Same
> area had a max of 98 2-sided linedefs visible.
>
> I get visplane fun all the time. I'm trying to kill it now on a level
> where again there's an absolute max 26 subsectors visible. Probably less.
> No way is there 128 2-sided linedefs visible.
Well, I ran into a similar problem with a wad I have in beta right now.
I had some lettering on the ground: B B Q. I was getting serious
visiplane crashes. I had made the letters rather cursive.
Interestingly these letters were NOT visible at the spots where it was
crashing:
______
/ \ BBQ
/ \
| | * = 5 pointed star
| * | <==== raised platform
\ /
\______/
X X = spot where game crashed
(Pardon the poor art-work) So, you see the crash occured even
when the lettering was hidden by the raised platform. I solved
the problem by making the lettering more blockish (removing lines).
I don't know if any of this applies to your wad, but I thought
I'd share this with the list members.
- --Jim
============================================================================
James L Elson: |<o When you stare into the abyss too long o>|
School of Arts & Humanities |<o the abyss stares back into you. o>|
University of Texas-Dallas | --Nietzsche-- |
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 15:07:15 +0100
Subject: Re: DOOM 1 -vs- DOOM 2
At 12:16 pm 28/3/95, Jim Elson wrote:
>
>I'm not sure about specific missions in Doom 1. However, I understand
>that the tags 666 and 667 will only work on MAP07 in Doom 2. Of course,
>the tag 666 will work in Doom 1 (I ran into it once in a Doom1 I was
>converting to Doom2). BTW, is this info in the Unoffical Specs?
>
No info in the UDS. Tags should work in a similar way in DOOM1 and DOOM2
surely? Would the exe really bother checking whether it was running as 1 or
2?? hmmm... s'pose so as it's MAP07 in 2 and E1M8 in the other... Still odd
though, don't ya think?
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:58:53 CST
Subject: Re: re. visplanes?
>To Robert Fenske Jr.: I got transparent doors to work by following
>spchaunt.wad. But I can't get rid of HOM in the door sides. I fix it so
>the HOM can't be seen by making the doors thin & also making them opaque
>near the sides (I've got great stained-glass doors - wierd glass that
>doesn't break when hit by a rocket, but ...). I haven't got spchaunt
>handy for taking apart to see if there's HOM there too (I've got a huge
>collection of pwads, you'd think I'd save one I actually studied!). So
>is there any trick I'm missing here?
SPCHAUNT does not have any HOM effects. The underside of the shuttle
bay door looks funny as it's opening or closing (I never figured out why),
but it's not a HOM effect. One of the important requirements is that the
door sides linedefs (at least one of them anyway) be numbered lower than the
door faces linedefs. I also think the area comprising the door should not
be split by the node building process; obviously this is difficult to control
since you can't know apriori how the nodes will be built. I'm not 100% sure
on this because I haven't thought it fully through.
I've been meaning to write a description of the transparent door
effect but it's been low on my priority list. I think it's a neat effect.
There are subtleties that make the effect look better and those that can
destroy the effect.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 15:25:41 +0100
Subject: Re: re. visplanes?
At 1:08 pm 28/3/95, Jim Elson wrote:
>I had some lettering on the ground: B B Q. I was getting serious
>visiplane crashes. I had made the letters rather cursive.
>
>Interestingly these letters were NOT visible at the spots where it was
>crashing:
>
> ______
> / \ BBQ
> / \
> | | * = 5 pointed star
> | * | <==== raised platform
> \ /
> \______/
>
> X X = spot where game crashed
>
>
>(Pardon the poor art-work) So, you see the crash occured even
>when the lettering was hidden by the raised platform. I solved
>the problem by making the lettering more blockish (removing lines).
Hmmm... a map like this will probably have a lot of things carved up by the
nodes builder: lots of SSegs visible here, I'd bet. By "hidden" I assume
you mean that the floor (and therefore the effects of the letter sectors)
is hidden. The engine will still be looking through these ssegs, yes?
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: Greg_Garrison@f1111.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Greg Garrison)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 18:10:12 -0500
Subject: Real ques. this time
Sorry, about the Quake Question, but thanks for replying to it. I know
this isnt a discussion For Quake. Anyway, i have an editing
question now. I had made a lot of levels with Domcad for doom 1
but im haveing trouble with doomcad for doom2 everydoor i make
says its a not closed sector. Strange.
Any ideas??
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #222
**********************************
