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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 184
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #184
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Friday, 24 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 184
Re: The WAD
Re: Engine debate - The WAD.
The WWW Page is up.
Re: Better goals
Re: New WAD
Re: "The WAD" Counter
Re: A name for our WAD
Re: The WAD: game engine
Re: STEALTH DEATHMATCH Starts?
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: The WAD: game engine
THE WAD PROGRESS
Re: id-ea
Re: The WAD
Re: But....
DEU 5.3 suggestion
THE WAD - Update part2
THE WAD - Update part3
Re: DEU 5.3 suggestion
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: THE WAD - Update part2
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Eric Fisher <efisher@moose.uvm.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 01:03:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: The WAD
>
> This sounds like a fun project for y'all, but how long do you really think it
> will take to get this thing together? Hopefully not all the way into this
> coming fall. There will be a tremendous Quake around that time. And you will
> all laugh at how small and silly and hard-to-modify DOOM is. You will
> instantly forget about DOOM, just as you all have forgotten about Wolf 3D.
>
> By the way, our new programmer is . . . .
>
>
> Michael Abrash! He will be here Saturday and officially start on Monday! Oh,
> yes. Quake will rule the cosmos. And for much longer than DOOM could hope
> for. Just had to stir the pot -- talk to y'all later!
>
> John Romero
> id Software, inc.
>
John,
congratulations to your new co-worker. maybe you can fill us in on
his previous work or past. I do not recognize the name. Am I supposed to?
Eric
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am Pentium of Borg.
You will be Approximated.
Precision is futile.
Math as you know it, is over...
------------------------------
From: hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca (Enigma)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 22:06:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Engine debate - The WAD.
>There is a heated debate over which engine should be used for this
>project. My vote would go for Doom 1, and here is why:
Hear hear! I totally agree with you Raphael. Doom's monsters are FAR
superior to heretic's. And Heretic's extra features (looking up/down) are
just to silly to consider a major selling point. This is a DOOM wad: NOT, a
heretic wad.
***************************************************************************
enigma <hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca>
***************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Ross Carlson <setc@together.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 02:12:52 -800
Subject: The WWW Page is up.
Ok, I finally ironed out the details, the rest is all down hill.
The web page is up and running at:
http://together.net/~setc/thewad.html
Bear in mind that this is my first attempt at WWW page programming,
so if there's something wrong, PLEASE let me know through e-mail.
If I left anyone out, let me know, or if there are any suggestions
as to the content of the pages, let me know as well.
- -Ross
------------------------------
From: setc@together.net (Ross Carlson)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 02:27:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Better goals
>Hi,
>
>I sense a great deal of flailing on the list right now.
>
>I have these suggestions:
>
>1. First, realize that 3D is a new and an entirely different media from film.
>Please don't remake a movie!
>
>The Aliens wads are an astounding technical acheivment, but was anyone
>surprised or amazed when they saw the Aliens, eggs, or crab-guys? Was there
>any sense of discovery?
>
>Why not come up with an original theme so that the people who enter the world
>we create see something new!
>
>I like the idea of creating a modern world, cyber-punk type of theme. A kind
>of David Lynchian twilight-zone twist on real life. What if not all the
>monsters attacked you? You would have to figure them out as you went along,
>or you could use them for cover. What if a monster was turned into a marading
>bus? What if picking up an thing caused a clue to appear on your monitor?
>i.e. "go down the stairs" instead of "you picked up health" ... just some
>ideas
>
>Also, because one of the best attractions of Doom is raw violence, one stated
>goal should be to make "The Wad" even more violent, with more gore, bigger
>explosions, more gnarly sounds, etc., but with a balance of quiet parts to
>make the violent parts seem that much more intense.
>
>2. The levels should only be created *after* the hacks, sprites, etc are set
>in stone. The levels must be designed with the overall theme, monsters, and
>weapons in mind. They shouldn't be patched together with old wads gathering
>dust in someone's hard drive.
>
>3. We need to create an E-mail ballot with multiple choice voting capability
>(put the x between the parenthesis ( ) etc.)
>
>Once the ballot is designed, mail it out on the list, replies will be
>addresed to a temporary mailing list and counted, announced etc.
>
>I would like to help out with textures, Skys etc. (If you've seen
>Surreal1or2.wad you know I can make some cool textures)
>
>Later on,
>
>
>DTeeter@aol.com or inchq.com
>
IMHO, this guy hit the nail directly on the head! Especially the part about
giving something new for the player to discover. Also, I LOVE the idea of
making the game more violent/gory. That would be lots of fun! As far as
voting goes, I would like to take theme/name/engine votes for the next week,
until March 2nd, at which time I'll call for a vote - cool with everyone?
I noticed someone else is taking a vote on the engine, but he didn't set a
deadline, or announce when the results would be posted.
Please let me know if this is the way we will do this.
- -Ross
------------------------------
From: Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 23:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: New WAD
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Ross Carlson wrote:
> Absolutely! An ftp site would be awesome. How do we do that? If ANYONE
> out there knows how we can get a site, post the method!!! We need this.
> I'm doing the WWW page, but I don't have access to enough disk space on my
> server to hold all the patches, unless we want to collectively pay 2 bucks a
> meg per month for storage. That would be fine with me, but I have to have
> everyone's commitment to pay their share per month.
If needed, I can free up a couple megs, ask admin for an ftp dir, and set
it world-writable. But I, too, have to pay 2 bucks/meg/month, and I
can't handle much more than 2 bucks a month, so we'd need to keep it
under around 3-4 megs, depending on how much space I can free up
otherwise. Comments?
/ads@netcom.com
[LC/Cardy/Kilwren/Cardenyl
\PASO/Paradigm/Storm
---------------------------->
After an instrument has been assembled, extra components will be found
on the bench.
------------------------------
From: Ian Springer <ips@remus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 3:51:50 EST
Subject: Re: "The WAD" Counter
My votes on Raphael's survey are:
1> Yes.
2> Doom 1
3> Heretic
- ------------------< Ian Springer (Rutgers College '98) >---------------------
ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
- ---------------------< http://remus.rutgers.edu/~ips >-----------------------
------------------------------
From: kwreid@helix.net (Keith Reid)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 19:50:32 -0500
Subject: Re: A name for our WAD
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I really think we need a name for
> ths thing!
Personally, I've grown to like:
"DOOM III - What the hell?"
(No, it's not mine...=8)
Keith Reid
kwreid@helix.net
Keith Reid, Fidonet@1:153/859.0
------------------------------
From: kwreid@helix.net (Keith Reid)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:38:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The WAD: game engine
> I'm beginning to think we have 2 camps: those who want to make some really
> nice cohesive well-designed and implemented WADs, and those who want to hack
> it to the point that no one can tell that it was ever DOOM (Htic, whatever).
> Maybe the answer is to have 2 projects, based on that delineation (previous
> posts had hinted at engine differences (D,D2,H) being separate projects).
What would seem to be the best idea I've had so far would be to spawn a few
different mailing lists. One for a "Doom1 `The Wad'", one for a "Doom2 `The
Wad2'", and one for "Heretic `The HWad'". =8) That way each camp can play
in it's own sandbox. Those who aren't interested in helping out with the
"The Wad" project can opt not to subscribe to these groups and stick with
their original problem-solving in the Doom-editing mailing list. Those who
aren't interested in a particular `version' (Doom, Doom2, or Heretic) of a
"The Wad" group, can opt to not join that discussion as well.
Keith Reid
kwreid@helix.net
Keith Reid, Fidonet@1:153/859.0
------------------------------
From: kwreid@helix.net (Keith Reid)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:46:37 -0500
Subject: Re: STEALTH DEATHMATCH Starts?
> there he makes NO noise and there is NO green flash - the player just
> pops into existence! The others in my games confirmed this phenomenon,
> and it's repeatable. And the Green player start up on the chainsaw
> patio, which I did not move, still makes noise and a green flash.
>
> Anyone else ever see this? Is there a way to control the effect, so that
> it appears when you want it to and doesn't when you don't? I think it
> has some fascinating possibilities...
I've seen the same thing happen on occasion with a few of my home-grown
levels as well. I'd be standing in a sector and kill my opponent and then
POOF there he was again. No green flash, and no teleport sound. I've been
unable to recreate the situation, but it appears to happen about 5 to 10% of
the time.
Keith Reid
kwreid@helix.net
Keith Reid, Fidonet@1:153/859.0
------------------------------
From: Robert E Arthur <rea@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:13:41 +0100
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
> From doom-editing-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Feb 24 10:03:17 1995
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 23:35:12 -0500 (EST)
> From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
> That could be a stickler... how do we do difficulty levels?
Simple - extensive playtesting. I never play Doom on less that UV (for the
standard levels), yet I feel that I am more than capable of producing diff
levels for my wads.
Byeeeee,
Bob.
------------------------------
From: Eric Fisher <efisher@moose.uvm.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 05:34:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: The WAD: game engine
>
> > I'm beginning to think we have 2 camps: those who want to make some really
> > nice cohesive well-designed and implemented WADs, and those who want to hack
> > it to the point that no one can tell that it was ever DOOM (Htic, whatever).
> > Maybe the answer is to have 2 projects, based on that delineation (previous
> > posts had hinted at engine differences (D,D2,H) being separate projects).
>
> What would seem to be the best idea I've had so far would be to spawn a few
> different mailing lists. One for a "Doom1 `The Wad'", one for a "Doom2 `The
> Wad2'", and one for "Heretic `The HWad'". =8) That way each camp can play
> in it's own sandbox. Those who aren't interested in helping out with the
> "The Wad" project can opt not to subscribe to these groups and stick with
> their original problem-solving in the Doom-editing mailing list. Those who
> aren't interested in a particular `version' (Doom, Doom2, or Heretic) of a
> "The Wad" group, can opt to not join that discussion as well.
>
>
>
> Keith Reid
> kwreid@helix.net
> Keith Reid, Fidonet@1:153/859.0
>
>
yes... but then that significantly drops the talent pool into 3
separate groups. I think It should be for one engine. However, maybe
someone can agree to convert it to another engine? maybe a 2 groups
of 3 will convert it to the other engines. any thoughts?
Eric
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am Pentium of Borg.
You will be Approximated.
Precision is futile.
Math as you know it, is over...
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:25:45 -0500
Subject: THE WAD PROGRESS
Ok, Here is my idea. Why dont we sit here and talk about it for a month or 2
and never really ever do anything to produce it!! OK!! COOL!!!
Tom (Clock Prardox)
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:23:21 -0500
Subject: Re: id-ea
>As far as sounds go, I've got some really nice sword stuff I did for a
>samurai Doom project I started that never turned out. Chings, >schings,
>clicks, scrapes, bangs, bongs and such.
I want samurai doom, when finished.
Tom
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:40:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The WAD
>This sounds like a fun project for y'all, but how long do you really think
it
>will take to get this thing together? Hopefully not all the way into this
>coming fall. There will be a tremendous Quake around that time. And you
will
>all laugh at how small and silly and hard-to-modify DOOM is. You will
>instantly forget about DOOM, just as you all have forgotten about Wolf 3D.
>By the way, our new programmer is . . . .
>Michael Abrash! He will be here Saturday and officially start on Monday!
Oh,
>yes. Quake will rule the cosmos. And for much longer than DOOM could hope
>for. Just had to stir the pot -- talk to y'all later!
>John Romero
>id Software, inc.
Why thank you John, thats just what we need to boost moral on this project!
<Sigh>
Tom (Clock Paradox)
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:57:05 -0500
Subject: Re: But....
>But could not you even consider using Heretic? There are more
>improvements in Heretic over Doom than of Doom 2 over Doom.
Is that you Billy boy??
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:03:21 -0500
Subject: DEU 5.3 suggestion
A small request for DEU 5.3
A UNDO
OPTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you
Tom
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:07:05 -0500
Subject: THE WAD - Update part2
Fourth: Here is an updated list of the current contributers to "The wad"
Orginization and support:
Tom Mustaine (Head of this whole thing? mabye? dunno!)
Josh Martel (Orginazation for mail and wad selection)
Ross A. Carlon (Head of the Web for this project)
(I am unfimilar with this so far, I would appreciate it
if Ross would e-mail me on the current status of the web)
Jimmy Sieben (Level Design, Orginization)
Greg Lewis (Ideas on procedure, Orginization)
Enigma (hsimpson@unix.ubc.ca) (Ideas, Also Orginization)
Level Designers:
Tom Mustaine Josh Martel
Jimmy Sieben Andre Arsenault
Ian P. Springer Ty Halderman
Robert Aurthur *Raphael Quinet*
Bob Kircher Larry Mulcahy
David Damerell Casey Robinson
Peter Fleming
Sorry, No American Mcgee or J. Romero! (Would be nice!)
Music & SFX Guru's:
Matthew Miller Andy Vitale
Jason Dyer Tom Mustaine
Josh Martel
Graphics Support:
Jason Hoffoss John Minadeo
Tom Mustaine Josh Martel
Other Support:
Richard A. Soderberg Ross Carlon
Nick Ramirez Kram Llens
Greg Lewis Ed Phillips
Derek Byrne Bill Bessette
James Newton Michael (M&M's)
Anthony Spataro Adu001@bigcat.missouri.edu
Playtesting:
Everybody Will playtest - I mean EVERYBODY!
A lot of you haven't specified how you are going to help this
project, I suggest that everybody that is involved make an
attempt to supprot everything! That way we will have Tons
of support to choose from for the final product.
Sixth: I have a small idea on how this can all come together in the end,
First off, We need to choose a theme. Then find what specs we want
everything to fall within for the theme. Finally, set a date that
we need material in!! (We do have a limit here folks, Quake is due
Next fall and it will make all doom projects null and void for a
while!) Then recieve all submissions and find out where exactly
everything belongs and compile it into the huge Pwad or if completed
The IWAD.
What I hope to do along with the orginization staff is after the
theme has been decided, then appoint editors to do specific tasks
for the wad. I would prefer not to use levels that have already been
introduced to the net, just to keep some kind of originality to our
project. If this does get big enough, I want people to sit down and
play this like they would sit down to play doom or doom2!
I think the idea of hacking all the textures and monsters and so on
from doom into heretic is a good idea, but thats not what we are
here to do. First off, Heretic is not 4 player compatible on certian
network systems (dwango for instance). I realize that the engine is
a little better than dooms in the respect of looking up, down, and
flying, but there are over 2,000,000 (more I assume now) registered
doom2 users out there. As of yet, nothing even close to that for
heretic. So using heretic as a base for this wad is not a Good
idea, Mabye for some other team, or one for this one after this
project is completed, but not now. Besides, someone Is hard at work
on just such a project right now that will allow Registered heretic
users to use doom2 and make a heretic/doom combination
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:09:07 -0500
Subject: THE WAD - Update part3
Seventh:
1. How many new graphics people do we have? That will probably be a
slowdown part if you've only got one person to do umpteen wall textures
and 20 new monster pictures (or whatever). I think a lot of people on
the doom editing list can make a killer WAD, but who knows how many are
artists also...
2. We may have to watch out for people's expectations. I have a gut
feeling that this won't turn out the way everyone wishes, since everyone
has a different view of what we're making. Some think a totally new game
(with the Doom engine), some just want a rehash of the plot of Doom, etc
etc.
3. Will there be any "quality control" for this? Or do we all just slap
something together and trust that everyone else does as good as we expect
in designing levels? I don't think there's any way to really make sure
the levels are good enough (since everyone's got different standards) but
it would be nice.
These are some questions brough to me by Greg.
#1 - First we need to decide what the theme is!!
#2 - I have that feeling as well, but, hopefully with some orginization
and some standards set, we can overcome that and create the BEST
Wad for doom ever (besides Doom.wad and Doom2.wad (: )
#3 - Heres where things will get fun! Everyone will be evaluating
the work of others, bug testing, multiplayer, structure ideas, and
so on. I want this to be a HIGH quality production!! One that
Joe User will play over and over and over just like his good ol'
Doom II.
Finally (for now): I assume that Doom2 is the desired engine for everybody
here. 32 levels, 36 musics, 15+ Bad guys, and 50+
textures make for a good selection of things to swap!
Well, This concludes the second letter for the Editors of "THE WAD"
- -Sorry this is so brief, its late, need to work tommorow, and sleep is
my friend!!
- -Once again, To all those on the list who haven't jumped on this bandwagon
of fun, If you want to, write me, or some of the supprt staff above!
Thanks again everybody, and lets get "THE WAD" on the road!!!
Tom Mustaine (Clock Paradox)
Typos, mispelled words+names, and incomplete sentences have been added to
this document to further the confusion of its contents! Have a nice day!
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 14:33:52 +0100
Subject: Re: DEU 5.3 suggestion
> A small request for DEU 5.3
>
> A UNDO
> OPTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Fear no more, my friend! (and stop shouting...) DEU 5.3 _has_ an undo
option. And redo too, just in case.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: jdh15 <jdh15@po.cwru.edu>
Date: 24 Feb 1995 13:29:17 GMT
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
Late night with Greg Lewis:
>> Obviously, we also need marked exits, DM/co-op starts, consitesnt
>> implementaiton of difficulty levels.
>
> That could be a stickler... how do we do difficulty levels? I don't
> think a "formula" will work, since each WAD will be different, and yet
> how can we judge objectively? (But uniformity IS good, in case I'm
> coming across wrong here.)
One thing we could do: Say I was assigned to write E3M4. I go to
the FAQ, find out how many monsters of which type, how much ammo,
health, bonuses, etc. there are on that level. Then I am required
to stay within 10% of those numbers. (with exceptions like if
there's lots of darkness or acid pools then extra light amps or rad
suits to taste) This would have the advantage of not only keepng
our levels consistent with each other, but keeping them close in
difficulty to iD's original levels, which I felt were a decent
balance of ammo vs. monsters.
- -j
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -- Jeremy Holland (216) 754-1343 ------------
- ---- jdh15@po.cwru.edu 11349 Juniper Rd. ----------
- ------ Case Western Reserve Sherman House #316 --------
- -------- Cleveland, OH 44106 http://maniac.cwru... ------
- ---------- ...edu/~deth/ ----
- ------------ "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!" --
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 14:48:12 +0100
Subject: Re: THE WAD - Update part2
On Fri, 24 Feb 1995, TWM2029@aol.com wrote:
> First off, We need to choose a theme. Then find what specs we want
> everything to fall within for the theme. Finally, set a date that
> we need material in!! (We do have a limit here folks, Quake is due
> Next fall and it will make all doom projects null and void for a
> while!) Then recieve all submissions and find out where exactly
> everything belongs and compile it into the huge Pwad or if completed
> The IWAD.
[...]
Hey, didn't you read the articles that I posted to this list? I made a
proposal to split this project in two. The only replies that I saw were
positive. Why do you ignore that?
I said: let's split the project in two. The first project would produce
a WAD with new levels and a few new textures. But no big re-design of the
monsters, no EXE patches, etc. Keep it simple! I suggest that this project
is based on the Doom 1 engine (not Doom 2 because it doesn't have the nice
intermission screens). The second project would be much bigger and have new
monsters, new textures, new sounds, EXE patches, etc. That would create a
brand new world (Total Conversion). I suggest that this second project is
based on the Heretic engine, because you can fly, look up and down, select
objects, etc. Since we would re-design the monsters and weapons, these
differences between Doom and Heretic don't matter.
I don't want to work on a big WAD with new monsters and lots of new textures
right now. For the moment, I want to join the "small" project, because I
want it to be ready in a few weeks, not in a few months.
Another important point: don't even think of creating a new IWAD! You could
have bg problems with Id if you release a new IWAD, because that would allow
the owners of the shareware version to play these levels.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #184
**********************************
