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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 182
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #182
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Friday, 24 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 182
The Big WAD
Re: Split the project! (was: Re: "The WAD": Theme)
Re: The Big WAD
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: The Wad
Re: id-ea
Re: THEME: The WAD
The WAD
Responce to Split the project!
Re: "The WAD" Counter
Re: The Big WAD
Re: Legalities?
Re: The WAD
New Textures
Re: Legalities?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carsten Whimster <bcrwhims@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:54:14 -0500
Subject: The Big WAD
Hi all again,
Well, a lot of bickering is going on here. Two things:
1) These days the contents of the list are huge, so CUT DOWN on
attributions, and quoting.
2) We've all heard the reasons for Doom vs Doom2 vs Heretic. Let's
vote! Who can organize a proper vote, with a few impartial judges?
P.S. I am firmly against Heretic. It has only been out for two months,
and many more people have the Dooms. I like Doom2, it's the one I
have (Only), and I prefer the 30 levels to the episodes by far.
Carsten Whimster Thinking that we're
EDM/2 Associate Editor/Book reviewer getting older and wiser...
Team OS/2 --- POV-Panel/2 author when we're just getting old
bcrwhims@uwaterloo.ca David Gilmour
------------------------------
From: Ian Springer <ips@remus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 15:09:15 EST
Subject: Re: Split the project! (was: Re: "The WAD": Theme)
> Now, in reply to your original text (10% of the message): the WAD project
> is not a "lame re-make of Doom". It should be a follow-up, like Doom II
> was for Doom 1. A kind of "Doom III", if you want.
>
> If we replace all monsters and textures with something new (like you
> suggest), then it would probably look like a "lame re-make of Doom". Think
> about it: the risks of having something that doesn't have the right
> atmosphere is greater is we try to re-design everything.
>
> Sure, everyone has lots of bigger and more exciting ideas for this project.
> But how many of them could actually be done in a reasonable amount of time?
>
> Maybe we should have two projects: one for those who want to have a new
> set of episodes with a few new graphics here and there (the "simple" approach)
> and one for those who want a "total conversion". How about that? Then we
> could have the first big WAD released in a short time and the second one
> later, with better graphics, new monsters, etc.
>
> My suggestion is: split the project in two.
>
> The first project would concentrate on the design of the levels and use
> Doom 1 (with Doom 2 monsters) as a basis. The new WAD would be released in
> a few weeks.
>
> The second project would rely more heavily on new graphics, maybe some
> DeHackEd patches, etc. It could use Heretic as a basis, because more people
> would probably have the registered version of Heretic in the meantime. And
> if the monsters are re-designed anyway, there is no need to stick to Doom
> anymore. Then we would benefit from the improvements in the engine, like
> flying and looking up and down.
>
> -Raphael
>
This idea sounds like a good one to me, a fair compromise...if
everyone else is good with this idea then let's get this thing going!
BTW, I have access to a fast WEB server here at Rutgers and can set up
a page and a small FTP upload section (20 megs or so) for the project
if nobody else has better resources...
- -Ian
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 21:38:28 +0100
Subject: Re: The Big WAD
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Carsten Whimster <bcrwhims@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> 1) These days the contents of the list are huge, so CUT DOWN on
> attributions, and quoting.
Please cut down the quotings, but NOT the attributions. The attribution
line is what makes it easier to find the original article in the previous
postings, by searching for the e-mail address and date. When there is an
attribution line, quoting can be kept to a minimum - NEVER quote the whole
article.
> 2) We've all heard the reasons for Doom vs Doom2 vs Heretic. Let's
> vote! Who can organize a proper vote, with a few impartial judges?
>
Michael Biggs <mbiggs@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> is taking the votes. Send
your vote to him directly by e-mail.
Now that I think about it, voting only for "the best engine" is not a
good idea. The result could be that we have one engine choosen by the
majority of readers of this list, which could be different from what the
people who actually want to contribute would have choosen. Besides, it
looks like the project will be split in two anyway, because some people
want to have only new levels with no new monsters, etc. while other
people want a more complex project with new graphics, new sounds, some
EXE patches, etc. Here is my proposal:
* Send two votes: one for the "small" project, one for the "big" project.
* When you send your vote, make a clear statement about what you are ready
to do for each project and when you expect to have it finished.
* If you don't want to contribute (or don't say what you will do or when
you will do it), you can send your vote but it will be counted separately.
As an example, here is my vote:
- - First project (WAD only): I vote for DOOM 1.
I am ready to create up to three new levels from scratch (one for starters,
like E1M1, and the other two will be more complex, like E1M3 or E1M5).
The first level will be ready and distributed to the participants after one
week (one week after the project has really started and we have the theme).
I will probably need two weeks for the other levels.
- - Second project (Total Conversion): I vote for HERETIC.
I am also ready to create up to three new levels from scratch. In addition,
I can create a new monster (about 50 frames) if someone gives me some
material to start with (idea, rough shape for the monster,...). I can also
create several new textures on demand. I will not be able to start working
on this before six weeks from now, but I expect to have the three levels
ready in less than two weeks. For the monster, it depends on how complex
it is.
I think everybody should send a vote like this, so that we know exactly who
will contribute and when we can expect to have something ready. The votes
will have much more value if we know that they come from someone who is
interested in the project, not from someone who votes because he wants to
play with whatever version of the game he owns.
- -Raphael
P.S.: CC to Michael Biggs so that: 1) he gets my vote directly,
2) he gets my proposal faster than through
the list and can comment on it.
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:43:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
>From the babbling net:
>> Also keep close to the original Doom theme... other things may be
>> pretty cool, but not for this project. The original Doom was very good
>> in regards to atmosphere, enemies, etc, and tampering with it may make it
>> less fun.
>
>I'm not sure about the legalities of keeping id's textures -- I suppose it
>depends on whether or not we have their cooperation:) But we must make a
>conceted effort to retain the look and feel of the original Doom (at all
>costs). I believe it should be our highest priority to play episodes 1-3,
>and maps 1-32 on a regular basis -- examining every detail, outlining what
>makes us feel good when we play a given level. Copy that, and we've got
>something.
Well, why not make The WAD a big PWAD? That way, we could still use id's
textures. They had some good ones, especial GSTONE1/2 the SP_HOT1, and several
others.
>A complete re-make would remove the DOOM theme altogether. If we want to
>make a new episode, it must be: 1) an extension of DOOM, and 2) retain the
>look and feel of Doom.
Not necessarily. If we make a lot of new levels, and keep the grafix in
the same vein, it will still be Doom.
>P.S. Yes, I know: everyone plays levels 1-32 and episodes 1-3 on a regular
>basis. Now, it's your job!
I realized what made Doom 2 1-32 and Doom 1 E1M1-E3M9 so successful:
Architecture. One day it dawned on me why Doom's original levels were so much
fun and a lot of PWADs weren't. RRWARD0x, UAC_DEAD, and others are notable
exceptions, but a lot of PWADs are just mindless rooms connected. Recently
I wandered around the first levels of Doom 1, and was really amazed. For the
first time, I analyzed the architecture of the levels. That is what made the
experience so real. So, I think all the level designers need to keep real
architecture in mind. Also, I think we need an upper panel to help sort the
levels and analyze Texture choices etc... This upper panel will have the final
say on what is in the levels, but should work with the designers to keep the
original "feel" that they intended with their level. Just a few thought from
me...
>enigma <hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca>
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:42:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: The Wad
Wow...that bit about a Cyberpunk theme really got me. It sounds like an
*excellent* theme for the levels. My only problem with it is, doing a
level that seems to be outside is hard, doing one where the buildings
have pictures doubly so, and doing one with chrome triply so, since the
highlights (shiny bits) won't change position like they normally would.
/ads@netcom.com
[LC/Cardy/Kilwren/Cardenyl
\PASO/Paradigm/Storm
---------------------------->
Caution: breathing may be hazardous to your health.
------------------------------
From: Paul Francis Turnbull <stenger@engin.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:24:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: id-ea
On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, M&Ms wrote:
> >>Engine
> Doom2.
My vote goes for Doom2 also.
> >>Themes
I think a major flaw in Doom, Doom2 and Heretic is that too few levels
are designed for Deathmatch. We should set aside at least a third of
the levels in this project to be tuned for Deathmatch. (See Tom Neff's
DM guide lines).
>
1.) An undead theme: it fits the sinister atmosphere of Doom, monsters
could include: Zombies, skeletons, vampires, bats, werewolves, etc.
Posable figures are available for photographing and scanning for
sprites and there's no way anyone can mess with you via copyright.
2.) Tech-war theme: fits the sci-fi Doom elements. Monsters could
include various types of robots. Again, copyright free and easily
accessable figures for sprites.
Count me in as a play tester, but unfortunately I no longer have the
free time to commit to an active role. I have a couple dozen copy right
free textures (I created them from scanned photos myself) mostly of old
rock walls, wood doors and walls, bookshelves, the Carlsbad caverns, etc.
Many of which have never been used in a PWAD (was creating them for Mayan2
which may or may not ever be completed). When someone gets a WWW page or
an FTP site going I'll make them available to the group.
Paul Turnbull
author of Mayan667 and Doomball
------------------------------
From: johnsond@std.teradyne.com (Dean Johnson)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 13:59:26 PST
Subject: Re: THEME: The WAD
> From doom-editing-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Feb 23 13:41:15 1995
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 20:03:43 +0100
Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se sez...
> On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Jeremy Holland <jdh15@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
> [...]
> > It turns out that UAC was actually conducting purges to round up
> > hell spawn for scientific study. Now they have a laboratory deep
> > underground, where they are holding the aliens and even mutating
> > them further.
> [...]
>
> I like this idea! This would keep most of the Doom theme and
> monsters and only add some extras.
Yes, in the interest of cooperation and simplicity, I agree.
I say we name this project (my suggestions: UAC-Underground, UAC-Lab),
take sign-ups, generate some new gfx, work up simple sketches of maps,
and kick it off.
People with different visions can certainly kick off projects in
parallel (i.e. multiple projects would be good since we seem to have an
excess of interested parties).
- -D
- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Johnson - johnsond@teradyne.com - Back off man, I'm a Computer Scientist!
------------------------------
From: John Romero <johnr@idpentium.idsoftware.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 15:34:28 -0600
Subject: The WAD
This sounds like a fun project for y'all, but how long do you really think it
will take to get this thing together? Hopefully not all the way into this
coming fall. There will be a tremendous Quake around that time. And you will
all laugh at how small and silly and hard-to-modify DOOM is. You will
instantly forget about DOOM, just as you all have forgotten about Wolf 3D.
By the way, our new programmer is . . . .
Michael Abrash! He will be here Saturday and officially start on Monday! Oh,
yes. Quake will rule the cosmos. And for much longer than DOOM could hope
for. Just had to stir the pot -- talk to y'all later!
John Romero
id Software, inc.
------------------------------
From: bennes@rpi.edu (Scott Benner)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:28:42 -0500
Subject: Responce to Split the project!
o My suggestion is: split the project in two.
o
o The first project would concentrate on the design of the levels and use
o Doom 1 (with Doom 2 monsters) as a basis. The new WAD would be released in
o a few weeks.
o
o The second project would rely more heavily on new graphics, maybe some
o DeHackEd patches, etc. It could use Heretic as a basis, because more people
o would probably have the registered version of Heretic in the meantime. And
o if the monsters are re-designed anyway, there is no need to stick to Doom
o anymore. Then we would benefit from the improvements in the engine, like
o flying and looking up and down.
Excellent idea! After reading many more posts, here's my suggestions...
1. Split it. One for the Doom I/II (their choice) with traditional (or non)
monsters, textures, etc. and One to entirely Remaster D.I/II,H.
with all new cool stuff.
A. Either select a game to base the Wad structure upon, or make a
different version for all three. I'd prefer the latter, as
it would end a lot of arguments...
B. Someone come up with a name for these things, either democratically
or dictatorially (?) Or perhaps it should be Project Alpha
for a while?
C. Perhaps we could come up with a little competition between the two
groups? Evaluated separately, of course. One just cannot
compare thirty new levels with a "new" game.
2. Create new mailing lists. IRC just won't do it for me... Or make a few
temporary newsgroups... They'll be able to hold our rambling comments;
this one seems to have drifted beyond doom-editing... This practically
counts as be doom-remaking...
Oh, as a final comment, count me in with the entire-remake faction. I've
finally mastered PoV-ray and should be to spit out a few objects, or at least
some cool tools... I'll be more than happy to donate ideas/levels and to
playtest, playtest, playtest...
WHOAH! Thats how we get non-copywrited textures! Generate them with a
fractal-type program! PoV, Video Toaster (was mentioned before), VistaPro for
Scenery...
- -- Scott Benner
------------------------------
From: sarice@snotty.edaca.ingr.com (Steve Rice)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 14:35:30 PST
Subject: Re: "The WAD" Counter
On Thu, 23 Feb 95, Raphael.Quinet wrote:
>
> Anyway, I think we should have several votes:
> 1) - Do we split the project in two?
> 2) - If we split the project, what engine will be used for the first WAD?
> 3) - And what engine will be used for the second WAD + DeHackEd patches?
>
1) Yes
2) Doom 2 -- maybe that would help to push the release of DEU 5.3 :)
3) no preference
Steve
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 18:10:09 -0500
Subject: Re: The Big WAD
> Date: 23-Feb-95 15:38:28 -0500
> From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
> * Send two votes: one for the "small" project, one for the "big" project.
>
> * When you send your vote, make a clear statement about what you are ready
> to do for each project and when you expect to have it finished.
- - First Project (WAD only):I vote for DOOM I
I'd be willing to create two new levels. I would prefer that they
be of the type that serve double duty as part of the overall mission
(what ever that ends up being) and as good DEATHMATCH levels. I have
extensive DM playing experiance and have designed several levels for
it. I typically turn small WADs out in three days and would be
willing to commit to a one week turn around for each WAD assigned to
me. If larger more complex WADs are needed I will try not to take
more than two weeks with them. I also have access to a decent
network of 486s and plenty of playtesters who would be more than
willing to spend their off time trying to break whatever the best and
the brightest have to offer.
- - second project: I vote for DOOM I or ][
I am willing to commit to the same as above for this project as well.
I am incapable of producing new graphics but would incorporate any
that were produced into the WADs. I am experianced with DHE types of
hacks and would be willing to produce them for the project as well.
Let's roll with this!
John
__________________________________________________________
#include <stupidstuff.h>
#define USER "johnw" /* John Wakelin */
/* Johnw@datametrics.com */
main() /* (703) 385 7700 */
{
while (isstupid(USER)) ignore(USER);
}
------------------------------
From: SYMBOL@ix.netcom.com (Jim Lowell)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:15:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Legalities?
You wrote:
>
>Please forgive me if this has alredy been discussed, but it's something
>that I'm genuinely concerned about...
>
>I know this is not an issue that we *want* to consider, but it's
becoming
>more and more apparent that we *must* consider it: how will id react
to a
>project containing all kinds of modifications for the
Doom/Doom2/Heretic
>.EXE?
>
>I know it's been discussed before and, if I recall correctly, general
>concensus was that DeHackEd patches were okay, as long as they were
>discreetly distributed. Is this true?
>
>However, it seems that one of the goals of 'The WAD' is mass
distribution.
>If done well, the end result of this project will be a 'must-have' for
>players everywhere, and we have to assume that it will eventually be
>available on every Doom/Doom2/Heretic ftp-site, fsp-site :), and
web-page
>from here to Phobos. That's really what we want, right?
>
>I recommend, to avoid stepping on id's toes and to make this project
>as 'user-friendly' as possible, that we limit ourselves to levels and
graphics
>and stay away from .EXE modifications.
>
>Again, I'm sorry if this has been discussed before.
>
>Brian
>
I don't know about the legalities of the thing, but I think that id is
mostly concerned with making sure that they get money for the game DOOM
and DOOM II. Since you'll need one of these to run THE WAD, it seems
that id will get what they want (ie: sales of their game) and anything
that happens after that is ok! It's like buying 3rd party engine parts
for your car after you buy it, except there's no charge for this part
(THE WAD!).
Now, if people were making a bundle selling modified DOOM EXE's, that
would be different! :)
- - Jim
------------------------------
From: Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:40:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: The WAD
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, John Romero wrote:
> There will be a tremendous Quake around that time. And you will
> all laugh at how small and silly and hard-to-modify DOOM is. You will
> instantly forget about DOOM, just as you all have forgotten about Wolf 3D.
That's a good question, actually. A whole new IWAD (or massive PWAD, or
whatever) is going to involve much work over an extended period of time.
Unless everybody involved can be made to work intensely on the project,
it's most like going to drag on for several months. Perhaps even into
the fall, at which point it really will cease to be especially relevant.
> Michael Abrash! He will be here Saturday and officially start on Monday!
> Oh, yes.
Did you hear him say Michael Abrash? I heard him say Michael Abrash.
Hehe. Hehehehe. Tweak, Mike, tweak for all you're worth! Yehahahaha!
/ads@netcom.com
[LC/Cardy/Kilwren/Cardenyl
\PASO/Paradigm/Storm
---------------------------->
We can defeat gravity. The problem is the paperwork involved.
------------------------------
From: chall@tcpet.uscg.mil (Pat H.)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 16:57:37 -0800
Subject: New Textures
>On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, M&Ms wrote:
[snip]
> I have a couple dozen copy right
>free textures (I created them from scanned photos myself) mostly of old
>rock walls, wood doors and walls, bookshelves, the Carlsbad caverns, etc.
[snip]
>Paul Turnbull
>author of Mayan667 and Doomball
I am working on a level for Heretic that is a giant cavern. Caving is a
major hobby of mine ( that is where I got my inspiration for my level)! Is
there anyway you can send me the textures of the rock walls and Carlsbad
Caverns so I can put them in my level?. I would really appreciate it ; )
- -have fun editing doom
- -Pat (chall@tcpet.uscg.mil)
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:10:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Legalities?
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Brian Kidby wrote:
> I know it's been discussed before and, if I recall correctly, general
> concensus was that DeHackEd patches were okay, as long as they were
> discreetly distributed. Is this true?
This is in essence true.
> I recommend, to avoid stepping on id's toes and to make this project
> as 'user-friendly' as possible, that we limit ourselves to levels and graphics
> and stay away from .EXE modifications.
I believe we should stay away from EXE modifications (for project 1 at
least) also, but not necessarily for the same reasons. I believe Id
won't really care too much about the modifications that are done to the
EXE, especially since they have moved on to Quake (see message from John
Romero :). The reason that I think we shouldn't include them is due to
the hassle of using them. There are so many different EXEs out there and
different configurations that I'm sure someone, probably many someones
would have problems and not be able to use it. Or the extra hassle would
scare people away.
I think we should adhere to the basic precept:
Keep It Simple!
Greg
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #182
**********************************
