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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 180
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #180
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Thursday, 23 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 180
*BATTLETECH* DOOM
Re: One for each?
Re: One for each?
The Wad
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Get off!!
RE: "The WAD": Theme
Engine debate - The WAD.
Re: The WAD: game engine
Re: The WAD
Re: id-ea
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: The wad
Re: The Wad
Re: One for each?
But....
The Wad (various)
Empty mail received
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: chall@tcpet.uscg.mil
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 23:14:29 -0800
Subject: *BATTLETECH* DOOM
Yes this would be a kick-ass theme! Anyone else agree? I doubt this will
become the theme of "The Wad" but we can make our own Btech TC.... If you
have any ideas... post or mail me at Chall@tcpet.uscg.mil!
- -Battletech Rules!
- -Pat
Davion2@aol.com
Chall@tcpet.uscg.mil
------------------------------
From: Ian Springer <ips@remus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 3:35:54 EST
Subject: Re: One for each?
> >
> >Howdy,
> >
> >Instead of selecting a single platform (Doom, DoomII, Heretic) for the
> >project, how about a separate project for each platform?
>
> I think we should make the WAD DOOM ][, but we should make one a theme
> wad, and one WAD with the 30 best Deathmatch levels.
>
> --
> Nothing can stop me now
> because I don't care anymore.
>
nah, Heretic is far superior and Doom2 doesn't have that many more
monsters..and we could incorporate 5 or 6 good DM levels into the theme WAD
(just like iD did with Doom and Doom2)
- ------------------< Ian Springer (Rutgers College '98) >---------------------
ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
- ---------------------< http://remus.rutgers.edu/~ips >-----------------------
------------------------------
From: Ian Springer <ips@remus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 4:08:32 EST
Subject: Re: One for each?
> >> Howdy,
> >>
> >> Instead of selecting a single platform (Doom, DoomII, Heretic) for the
> >> project, how about a separate project for each platform?
> >>
> >> Now if we could just get id to stop releasing patches... :)
> >>
> >> Brian
> >> --
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The Kid My thoughts and actions are strictly my own.
> >> thekid@ornews.intel.com Do not hold my employers responsible.
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >
> >not a bad suggestion....
> >
> Or, better, convert the project. There are plenty people, some could
> do conversions. Maybe the base platform should be Doom 2, since that is
> pretty popular, but convert to Heretic. Thsi is probably the best solution.
> Any better ones though?
> -- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
>
>
yeah, just use Heretic because of the numerous improvements and additions to
the engine...:>
- ------------------< Ian Springer (Rutgers College '98) >---------------------
ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
- ---------------------< http://remus.rutgers.edu/~ips >-----------------------
------------------------------
From: ambient!larry@nvg.unit.no (Larry Mulcahy)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 21:38 MST
Subject: The Wad
Shouting to be heard above the roaring chainsaw of dismemberment on Sun,
19 Feb 1995 17:58:28 +0100, Peter Fleming bellowed:
Peter> Hi You all, I'd like to propose the idea of a Doom-editing list
Peter> IWAD, ive a bunch of levels that work best with human style
Peter> enemies, based on the idea of a small town with random(ish)
Peter> insertions of enemies. If a bunch of us got together and
Peter> pooled our skills we could build a CLASSIC! 32 new levels. 20
Peter> new enemies (make the beasts thinner and faster and smarter?)
Peter> all new graphics a new strategic/tactical theme
What is the advantage to making an IWAD rather than a huge PWAD such as
the WADPAK collections? For one thing, coming up with all new textures
will be a tedious chore. Think of all the routine textures like the
STARTANs and GRAYs. In addition to the shocking, grisly walls that we
all want to draw someone would need to come up with all the ordinary
textures for stone, wood, steel, cinder block, etc.
I've been surveying existing WADs for reusable textures-- there are lots
of good ones out there but some would not be usable. Many user-defined
textures are a combination of user-supplied patches and DOOM[2].WAD
patches.
Other thoughts: I like (make-believe) killing PEOPLE with REAL-WORLD
WEAPONS. It should be DOOM or DOOM2, not HERETIC. I favor a
present-day or near-future scenario. BLADE RUNNER would be awesome.
Your job is to "retire" countless sociopathic but mostly human-looking
replicants, many with various superhuman abilities needed to perform
slave labor in the harsh conditions of outer space. Seek them out in
the industrial hells where they flee to avoid the prying eyes of the
curious. Visit the UAC asteroid mining space station and singlehandedly
put down the replicant rebellion before it can rage out of control.
Travel into the bowels of the subway system, mowing down wave after wave
of inhuman flesh to come to grips with the awful replicant Fuhrer. Or
what about ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK... Manhattan has been walled about and
transformed into a maximum security prison...
------------------------------
From: Ian Springer <ips@remus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 4:54:41 EST
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
> >From the babbling net:
> > Also keep close to the original Doom theme... other things may be
> > pretty cool, but not for this project. The original Doom was very good
> > in regards to atmosphere, enemies, etc, and tampering with it may make it
> > less fun.
>
> When I first suggested the notion that id write a new episode of Doom
> (remember id-ea?), I had in mind a partial replacement. I'd like to see the
> good old monsters we're used to slaughtering kept, with a few replacements
> of the ones we don't want to see again. For example: keep the sargeant and
> the former human, but change the skeleton-guy and the spider-demon. The
> specialties can go, but the classics must stay.
>
> I'm not sure about the legalities of keeping id's textures -- I suppose it
> depends on whether or not we have their cooperation:) But we must make a
> conceted effort to retain the look and feel of the original Doom (at all
> costs). I believe it should be our highest priority to play episodes 1-3,
> and maps 1-32 on a regular basis -- examining every detail, outlining what
> makes us feel good when we play a given level. Copy that, and we've got
> something.
>
> A complete re-make would remove the DOOM theme altogether. If we want to
> make a new episode, it must be: 1) an extension of DOOM, and 2) retain the
> look and feel of Doom. I do not believe that a movie re-write could be
> classified as an extension of Doom -- and Indiana Jones (a great idea even
> so) definitely doesn't fit this specification.
>
> I'm not here to start fires or raise any nasties to make anyone feel bad.
> I'm just trying to express what I believe would be the best, most
> successful, and most enjoyable project possible.
>
> P.S. Yes, I know: everyone plays levels 1-32 and episodes 1-3 on a regular
> basis. Now, it's your job!
>
> ***************************************************************************
> enigma <hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca>
> ***************************************************************************
>
>
well, i guess your original idea has changed since you suggested it...damn,
get a little creativity! it sounds to me like all you want to do is try to
make a lame re-make of Doom..I think mose everyone else here has bigger more
exciting ideas for this project way beyond the scope of what you have in
mind....
- ------------------< Ian Springer (Rutgers College '98) >---------------------
ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
- ---------------------< http://remus.rutgers.edu/~ips >-----------------------
------------------------------
From: D.Casali@rea0808.wins.icl.co.uk
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:06:34 +0000
Subject: Get off!!
We definately need to get the WAD project onto an independent
mailing list or a CF, my "mail bag" had over 200 records in it
this morning (accumulated over night) and most of them were
messages and replies back and forward that were just arguments,
disagreements etc.. surely they would be better placed in REAL
TIME, rather than on a mailing list!?
------------------------------
From: D.Casali@rea0808.wins.icl.co.uk
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:21:00 +0000
Subject: RE: "The WAD": Theme
Have to voice my agreement here. Talk has stretched too far into
the "complete conversion" area. I would rather have babies over
another add-on for Doom2 that gave 30 new levels and several new
monsters and textures, than a new look Doom, why tamper with
something that is already excellent and risk turning out
something that is inferior to what you're trying to improve? DC
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 11:39:55 +0100
Subject: Engine debate - The WAD.
Hi all!
It seems like everybody is talking about "The WAD" on the mailing
list instead of private e-mail like I did, so I thought I could
throw my 2 cents in...
There is a heated debate over which engine should be used for this
project. My vote would go for Doom 1, and here is why:
- - While Heretic has some great features (flying, look up and down),
the monsters are better in Doom (1 & 2). And it is probably
easier to build a successful theme with the Doom characters and
textures in mind (even if we change them) than with Heretic.
- - All the experienced designers have Doom 1. Most of them also have
Doom 2. Few of them have registered Heretic. Maybe this will
change in the future, but when do we want to have The WAD ready?
- - All monsters from Doom 2 can be used in Doom 1, provided that we
supply the sprites for them. The same is true for the super
shotgun. Since the engine is the same (same EXE), we should look
for other differences. This is where Doom 1 scores better...
- - The intermission screens are better in Doom 1. I was bit
disapointed by Doom 2, because you cannot see how you progress.
We can easily replace the graphics for these screens and have
something related to the theme displayed when the player
completes each level.
- - We can have three different themes, one for each episode (9
levels). By modifying the graphics, we can have the name of
each theme displayed as the name of each episode.
- - Since each episode should begin with an "easy" level in which
you don't have all weapons, this allows for greater variety
(some levels are boring if you enter them with a full stock of
weapons from the previous level).
- - From Id Software's point of view, it is probably better if we
use Doom 1 and make it incompatible with the shareware version
(and maybe even with Doom 2), because this would encourage people
to buy Doom 1 (sometimes in addition to Doom 2).
In summary, I would go for Doom 1 because it allows for a greater
variety in the levels and the development would be quicker (more
experience, more people who have it). I could go with Heretic
because it has some nice features, but I think it would be more
difficult to come with a successful theme and a good choice of
monsters and weapons. Doom 2 comes last in the list (although the
Doom 1 version would use its monsters and weapon), because there
is no way to have three episodes.
Note: it would be possible to have three episodes in Doom 2 if
we build a new IWAD with the levels renamed as Doom 1 levels. But
this is a big no-no because it would allow people to play it with
the shareware version of Doom 1 too. Id Software would not like
that...
- -Raphael
P.S.: DEU 5.3 news... We are at the third beta version now. No
public release yet, because there are still a few bugs in the
dialog boxes that we would like to fix first. I hope to have
a new public beta version ready in two days. This will not be
a "beta joke" anymore... :-)
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Finger: finger quinet@finger.montefiore.ulg.ac.be for some useless info. |
| WWW: http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~quinet (with preview of DEU 5.3) |
| E-mail: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se or quinet@montefiore.ulg.ac.be |
| S-mail: Raphael Quinet, 9 rue des Martyrs, 4550 Nandrin (Belgium) |
| --* Send your questions about DEU to: Deu_Help@boblab1.bobst.nyu.edu *-- |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 11:58:23 +0100
Subject: Re: The WAD: game engine
On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu> wrote:
> OK. My thoughts on the engine/theme ideas for the new project. I can
> see we're going to have some major problems getting this thing off the
> ground. :-( We need to decide on a game engine first (Doom/Doom 2/Heretic),
> and on a theme.
As you can read in my previous message, I vote for Doom 1. This allows us
to have three different themes: one for each episode. And the levels would
have more variety, since each episode begins with no weapons, no backpack,
etc. There will be more challenge in getting these bonuses.
[...]
> Stick with a PARTIAL or VERY LITTLE replacement. It will drastically
> decrease our production time (I think), and make it a lot easier for the
> casual user to download.
> Also keep close to the original Doom theme... other things may be
> pretty cool, but not for this project. The original Doom was very good
> in regards to atmosphere, enemies, etc, and tampering with it may make it
> less fun. Doing a movie makeover may be great for a TC (total
> conversion), but probably won't go too well with our particular project.
> I'm viewing the project as more of a sampling of awesome levels from this
> doom-editing list rather than a sampling of artwork for new sprites/walls.
> What's everyone else think?
>
I agree. If we want to have this project finished one day or another, we
have to stick with simple things (I know from the DEU project that adding
too many features at the same time will delay the project a lot). Besides,
replacing all textures and monsters would create a huge WAD file. I think
we should have several new textures, but still use some of the original ones.
If we use Doom 1 with the monsters from Doom 2, the graphics for these will
have to be replaced too. But don't replace ALL monsters. Most of the
original Doom 1 creatures will be perfect for any Doom-like theme. Don't
replace the sprites unless there is a very good reason to do so.
> And to respond to a few other messages I saw:
>
> DeHackEd for Heretic is out. It's called HHE10.ZIP on your favorite
> Doom FTP site.
>
Although DeHackEd is great, I'm not sure that we should use it in this
project. I think this project should be only a WAD file. Some people would
never want to touch their DOOM.EXE file and thus would probably not use
"The WAD" if it requires some modification in the EXE file.
Besides, are there any good resons to hack the EXE for a project like this?
Sure, you can create super-powerful weapons or flying Barons of Hell. But
is this necessary for a well-balanced game? I don't think so.
> Someone suggested making one episode shareware and two episodes
> registered for Doom. This won't work, since Id said that NO levels
> should work for shareware Doom. Period. Make 'em register. :)
>
Right. This is also the reason why creating and distributing a whole IWAD
file should not be allowed.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:05:26 +0100
Subject: Re: The WAD
On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com> wrote:
> I have a 16-bit color hand scanner, and will be happy to do any scanning
> the group needs, although if someone else has a better scanner, we should
> use that. The only question is, how to get pictures, etc to the
> scannor? (scannor vs. scanee)
>
Good question. We should think about this before nominating someone as
the "scannor in chief"...
I work on a Sun SparcStation with a Parallax video board and a video camera
which allows me to digitize images of any objects (like the guys at Id
Software did for the monsters in Doom). I also have access to a high-res
color scanner and several good programs for editing images. So I have
everything I need to create new sprites, textures, etc. But the problem is
that I live in Belgium and work in Germany. Will you, from the USA, send
all objects and pictures to me by post so that I can digitize them?
I think we should have several people with scanners. And if possible,
these people should also be the artists, because sending the material could
be a problem.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:09:22 +0100
Subject: Re: id-ea
On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, RKIRCHER@delphi.com wrote:
> There has been some discussion as to whether or not THE WAD project should
> use Doom, Doom ][, or Heretic. Here is my two cents worth:
>
> Doom: Out of the question. Anything Doom can do, Doom ][ can also do.
>
Wrong! Doom II doesn't have the nice intermission screens that Doom has.
And there are no episodes in Doom II. Thus no way to have three different
sets of progressive levels. While this is not important in deathmatch,
this is very important for single-player games.
On the other hand, we could use the monsters and the super-shotgun from
Doom II in Doom 1, provided that we supply the graphics for them.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:17:41 +0100
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca (Enigma) wrote:
>
> When I first suggested the notion that id write a new episode of Doom
> (remember id-ea?), I had in mind a partial replacement. I'd like to see the
> good old monsters we're used to slaughtering kept, with a few replacements
> of the ones we don't want to see again. For example: keep the sargeant and
> the former human, but change the skeleton-guy and the spider-demon. The
> specialties can go, but the classics must stay.
>
Right. Do not throw the good old monsters away. And this will save some
time in the development. I think that we should keep most Doom 1 monsters
and only provide new pictures for the Doom 2 monsters (we will have to do
it anyway, if we want to use the Doom 2 monsters with the Doom 1 episodes)
> I'm not sure about the legalities of keeping id's textures -- I suppose it
> depends on whether or not we have their cooperation:)
It is perfectly legal to use the original textures in a WAD, as long as
you only use their name. Including the graphics for the textures is not
allowed because they are copyrighted. But using them is OK. And using
textures from the registered version of the game prevents people from using
the WAD with the shareware version of Doom, according to Id's wishes. So
we must use Id's textures in The WAD. Along with our new textures, of
course.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: ee41rp@mcs.surrey.ac.uk
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:42:31 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: The wad
My last send appeared to get lost, so could somebody mail me ( not the list )
if you get this.
I have been reading about this Super wad, and would like to assist even if
it is only playtesting. I have been designing levels but haven't had much
experience, so I can't say that they would be perfect.
As for platform I would say doom ][ as the less we have to alter the monsters
and weapons the better.
Robin J Patenall ( Student at surrey university )
E-mail ee41rp@ee.surrey.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: Peter Fleming <pfleming@eros.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 01:50:31 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Re: The Wad
Yeah,
Urban CyberPunk wad, use the Zimmer textures at the end, for lots of
Neon Lights, Flashing Neon Lights, street gangs, cyberchotics, chromed up
tanks with minigun arms, Dark streets, steam erupting thru the sidewalk
grating, an industrial soundtrak, bursts of static. Instead of barrels
have TV's showing static and drowning out the sounds of razor-girlz
sneaking up behind you. TV's you can SHOOT. Easy to make textures-just
take a camera downtown. And the final enemy a T1000. Make the enemy fast,
and mobile, make the map non-sequential and dark, make the players sweat.
- -banjo Oblivion
------------------------------
From: nb6041@elmo.ail.com ( Nelson B. )
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 07:53:28 -0500
Subject: Re: One for each?
------------------------------
From: Beowulf@whitehouse.gov
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:14:30 -0500
Subject: But....
But could not you even consider using Heretic? There are more
improvements in Heretic over Doom than of Doom 2 over Doom.
------------------------------
From: Robert E Arthur <rea@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:27:41 +0100
Subject: The Wad (various)
OK - I'm sorry - I sort of started the Doom/Doom][ thing - with not enough info
to know what I'm talking about :)
I knew Doom][ used the same engine as Doom, but can someone give a definitive
answer as to the *exact* nature of this - ie if I got an IWAD for D2, I would
*have* D2. I had thought that there were at least slight differences in the
.EXE.
Oh, and I vote for complete conversion. This project will take ages, but I
would like to see what the cream of the net can do when they get together, and
if ID can do it, we can have a real shot.
Theme - nothing real. Indiana Jones, BattleTech etc just doesn't appeal as
much as a `Doom' theme. Probably (assuming Id soesn't mind!) an extension
of the current game. I *did* like the suggestion mentioned earlier of a
genetic research lab...
Heretic - well, I can't afford it, so will not enter any argument about that,
due to my obvious bias.
Byeeeee,
Bob.
------------------------------
From: "Dave 'Zoid' Kirsch" <a00563@giant.mindlink.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 05:33 PST
Subject: Empty mail received
Hi, doom-editing.
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------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #180
**********************************
