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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 189
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #189
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Sunday, 26 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 189
Undeliverable Mail
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: Wad-base Report #3 (sorry...)
Re: Wad-base Report #3 (sorry...)
Wad-base Report #4
"The WAD
WAD vote
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: Wad-base Report #3 (sorry...)
Re: "The WAD
Undeliverable Mail
Undeliverable Mail
Re: WAD vote
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: Re : the Wad
.WAD scoring system
Re: Editor import question
Re: .WAD scoring system
Re: Editor import question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Med Admin 1" <med_admin_1@msisgw.msis.med.umich.edu>
Date: 25 Feb 1995 20:20:34 -0500
Subject: Undeliverable Mail
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------------------------------
From: setc@together.net (Ross Carlson)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 21:26:41 -0500
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
>I'm in w/ Ross for the total conversion using the Heretic engine! who else
>is in the group for _THE_ wad?
What do you mean? I don't want to do a TC, I've been talking with Enigma
about doing a levels-only project, not a TC. My web page may be devoted
only to Enigma's efforts to co-ordinate those who want to do the smaller
project. What made you think I wanted to do the TC??
Please respond...
- -Ross
****************************************
* Ross Alan Carlson *
* setc@together.net *
* "THE WAD" Home Page: *
*http://together.net/~setc/thewad.html *
****************************************
------------------------------
From: Derek Byrne <byrneda@alf2.tcd.ie>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 02:45:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
> I'm in w/ Ross for the total conversion using the Heretic engine! who else
> is in the group for _THE_ wad?
Nope.. I disagree.. I still think that Doom2 should be used as the
Engine!
Derek
(byrneda@alf2.tcd.ie)
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 20:48:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Wad-base Report #3 (sorry...)
>> (sorry for the traffic)
>> [Level editor names deleted]
>
>If we have this many people on the team, I think we can afford to be picky
>level wise. Why don't we have everyone create 2 levels (or 3 if they want
>to) and then we go through and pick the 27 (or 32) best and most coherent
>levels.
Good idea, that way we get only the best. I second the motion.
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca (Enigma)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 19:43:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Wad-base Report #3 (sorry...)
>If we have this many people on the team, I think we can afford to be picky
>level wise. Why don't we have everyone create 2 levels (or 3 if they want
>to) and then we go through and pick the 27 (or 32) best and most coherent
>levels.
Not a bad idea at all. Let's settle on a theme and get things rolling.
***************************************************************************
enigma <hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca>
***************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca (Enigma)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 20:08:58 -0800
Subject: Wad-base Report #4
This is the latest wad-base report. It outlines who wants to do what for the
wad project. This list is only for those who wish to contribute to a partial
addition to Doom.
WAD_BASE ver: 02-25-1995/19:55:09
Level Editors: [ 27]
at455@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca
djsd100@thor.cam.ac.uk
dowswea@aa.wl.com
dsquid@li.net
dteeter@aol.com
ee41rp@ee.surrey.ac.uk
gregl@umich.edu
hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca
ips@remus.rutgers.edu
jdh15@po.cwru.edu
johnsond@teradyne.com
johnw@datametrics.com
JoshMartel@aol.com
kwreid@helix.net
l-sieben@memphis.edu
lmulcahy@nyx.cs.du.edu
ogiswise@rahul.net
Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
rkircher@delphi.com
Swift1@PowerGrid.Electriciti.Com
symbol@ix.netcom.com
thekid@ornews.intel.com
thldrmn@sam.neosoft.com
TWM2029@aol.com
Texture designer/editors: [ 3]
johnsond@teradyne.com
dteeter@aol.com
lmulcahy@nyx.cs.du.edu
Sound editors: [ 3]
hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca
ads@netcom.com
rmiller@infinet.com
Have a scanner: [ 1]
ads@netcom.com
Artists: [ 1] Leonardo da Vinci wanted.
dteeter@aol.com
Playtesters: [ 5] In reality, everyone is a playtester.
a.r.paterson@dur.ac.uk
at455@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
blj@clark.net
ee41rp@ee.surrey.ac.uk
jlelson@utdallas.edu
* Still looking for a digital video camera... and a skilled MIDI musician.
P.S. If your name is on this list and you are wanting to be part of the
total reconstruction of DOOM, you are on the wrong list. Please tell me so,
and I will remove you from it. Raphael mentioned in a message earlier about
this total reconstruction, (jogging memory) he mentioned it would be based
on Heretic. If you are a Heretic Junky, this is not the list for you.
Thanks. Once again, if there's any confusion, please email me
(hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca).
***************************************************************************
enigma <hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca>
***************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Brian Vannatta <vannatta@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 00:25:52 EST
Subject: "The WAD
I also think that the DOOM engine should be used rather than the Heretic
engine. Indeed, if we're going to use original textures, nothing beats
DOOM's textures for gritty realism. Heretic's textures seem too "cartoonish",
as do the sprites.
------------------------------
From: RKIRCHER@delphi.com
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 01:15:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: WAD vote
Here's my votes on Raphael's proposal on splitting the project:
1. Should the project be split into two?
Yes
2. What engine for the levels only project?
Doom/Doom ][
3. What engine for the "total conversion?"
Heretic
- -Bob Kircher
rkircher@delphi.com
------------------------------
From: bennes@rpi.edu (Scott Benner)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 01:44:41 -0500
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
o I'm in w/ Ross for the total conversion using the Heretic engine! who else
o is in the group for _THE_ wad?
I'll join the total conversion .WAD also. What can I offer? Level making
skills, limited dehacked knowledge, limited drawing ability (no people, but
robots are ok), knowledge of the PoV:RayTrace code, and one darn-tootin' DM
player (or so I'd like to believe, heck, I just beat my next door neighbor
22-1 (ok, he self fragged four times so its 22-5) )
Ok, who's the coordinator/leader of Project Beta? Whomever it is, we need to
do some deciding. It appears to me that the concensus for Beta is to use the
Heretic Engine. I'd have to agree; since this project will be from scratch,
we should pick the better engine... heh heh...
But really, we're going to redo the taxtures/graphics (people seem to think
Heretic's originals were rather weak) not only to avoid Id's gaze but to show
how creative we can be. Who's working on new graphics now? Or are we going
to "borrow" originals at the permission of the creators? In either case, what
do we have to show for ourselves?
I heard that there's a dehacked for heretic now, but what are we going to edit
yet? First we need to create simple graphics patches and experiment. My
personal favorite is the robot theme, with possibly civilians, techies, or
militr'y personel, yeah! a good ol' military f*** up where a crack commando
unit has to go in and clean up (whoops, was that a Descent theme parallel?)
Ok, how about this (supposing Heretic Engine)
Flying Imps Probes
Axe Tossers Ground Bots
Golems/Elementals ATAT type bots
Wizards Spreadfire 'Copters
Slicing Lizards ?
Fire Ball Beasts ?
Anyone have suggestions? Who's (definitely) hosting the Beta idea archive
so we can start something?
- -- Scott
------------------------------
From: setc@together.net (Ross Carlson)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 01:51:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Wad-base Report #3 (sorry...)
>>> (sorry for the traffic)
>>> [Level editor names deleted]
>>
>>If we have this many people on the team, I think we can afford to be picky
>>level wise. Why don't we have everyone create 2 levels (or 3 if they want
>>to) and then we go through and pick the 27 (or 32) best and most coherent
>>levels.
> Good idea, that way we get only the best. I second the motion.
> -- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
>
I vote for this concept - sounds logical!
- -Ross
****************************************
* Ross Alan Carlson *
* setc@together.net *
* "THE WAD" Home Page: *
*http://together.net/~setc/thewad.html *
****************************************
------------------------------
From: Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:37:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: "The WAD
On Sun, 26 Feb 1995, Brian Vannatta wrote:
> I also think that the DOOM engine should be used rather than the Heretic
> engine. Indeed, if we're going to use original textures, nothing beats
> DOOM's textures for gritty realism. Heretic's textures seem too "cartoonish",
> as do the sprites.
If you're doing a complete and total remake of the game (which you're
going to have to do if you want a completely new game), it won't matter
what the game's textures look like, because you're making new ones. That
goes for the palette, too.
/ads@netcom.com
[LC/Cardy/Kilwren/Cardenyl
\PASO/Paradigm/Storm
---------------------------->
Death to all fanatics!
------------------------------
From: "Med Admin 1" <med_admin_1@msisgw.msis.med.umich.edu>
Date: 26 Feb 1995 03:31:21 -0500
Subject: Undeliverable Mail
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Message: doom-editing-digest V1 #187
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------------------------------
From: "Med Admin 1" <med_admin_1@msisgw.msis.med.umich.edu>
Date: 26 Feb 1995 03:31:22 -0500
Subject: Undeliverable Mail
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Message: doom-editing-digest V1 #187
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Date: Sun, Feb 26, 1995 3:31 AM
Reason: Could not be delivered because the destination Microsoft Mail server
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------------------------------
From: Brian Vannatta <vannatta@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 04:18:12 EST
Subject: Re: WAD vote
Here are my votes on splitting the project (if they mean anything):
1. Should the project be split into two? - YES
2. Thus, what engine for levels only? - DOOM ][ (more textures to work with)
3. Finally, what engine for TC? - Use the Heretic engine!
- -Brian Vannatta
------------------------------
From: Ian Springer <ips@remus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 4:51:59 EST
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
your ideas for theme sound more like Marathon than Descent :> ...robot theme
could be cool though..one question I have is: Is it cool w/ iD to use Doom I
shareware textures in a Heretic PWAD? ..I don't see why it wouldn't be..
- ------------------< Ian Springer (Rutgers College '98) >---------------------
ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
- ---------------------< http://remus.rutgers.edu/~ips >-----------------------
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 4:11:51 CST
Subject: Re: Re : the Wad
> I exchanged mail with John Romero, because I wanted to use some graphics for
> my web page on this project, and he told me that we couldn't use any of
> their material. He said he wants to let us, but that he must say no. :(
That means you can use it because we won't prosecute. ;)
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: <jdh15@po.cwru.edu>
Date: 26 Feb 1995 14:51:16 GMT
Subject: .WAD scoring system
Since everyone seems to be agreeable on having everyone write
several levels and then picking the best, I though I would send you
all the scoring sheet I used when I ran a level-writing contest
here at my school... It may or may not be useful, but it gives
reminders about what's important to make a .WAD good.
<begin forwarded message>
R U L E S :
===========
you must declare an editor ahead of time. This is to prevent
someone with internet access over the summer from getting a
new version of an editor and thus an advantage.
5 levels will be submitted, ExM1, ExM2, ExM3, EyM1, EzMw, where x, y,
and z are 1 through three in any order and 0 < w < 10. Translation:
submit the first three levels for any episode, the first level of
another episode, and any level (including secret/final level) of the
remaining episode. The best three levels will be used for scoring.
(i.e. all levels will be scored and the best three will be counted.)
All contestants will judge all levels except their own. Outside
(supposedly neutral) judges may be brought in if necessary.
Grand Prize: The love and respect of your fellow DOOM players.
Levels will be submitted, in the form of a compound .WAD, on August 31,
1994. Include an .LMP or .TXT showing the solution, including all
secret areas.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
S C O R I N G :
===============
Each level will be scored in 6 areas, each area has a maximum possible
score of 50 points.
ARTISTIC IMPRESSION:
1. Difficulty (play the level w/o cheat keys to determine this)
0-25 points: the level was ridiculously hard (i.e. did you have to
fight 20 barons of hell with a pistol?)
- or -
the level was ridiculously easy (i.e. health never
dropped below 150%)
25-45 points: the level was not impossible but probably too hard to be
enjoyable (although I would never say this, because in
my opinion, the perfect level hangs you on the brink of
death but never *quite* pushes you off) Never got the
good weapons.
- or -
the level was too easy: too much ammo/health for the
monsters encountered. Rocket launcher/Plasma gun in
first room. (exception: levels like E3M4, E2M9)
45-50 points: the level was well balanced, with enough ammo and
weapons to take on the monsters presented. Players
were hurting, but could get through without iddqd or
idkfa without too many tries.
* BONUS *
1-10 points: ExM1 through ExM3 were increasingly difficult, and it
was possibly important to pick up the plasma cannon
in E2M2 to surviv E2M3, etc. keyword: continuity
2. Complexity: play with or without iddqd/idkfa but no idbeholda,
iddt, or idspispopd.
0-25 points: the map was ungodly complex (not bad in and of
itself, but...) and the exit was impossible
to find/you HAD to find secrets to exit, you had to
run back and forth pushing buttons everywhere, etc.
- or -
the map was basically a square with a door that led to
the exit; (i.e. way too simple, no secrets at all,
etc.)
25-45 points: the map was too complicated but the exit was findable.
- or -
The map was too simplistic. Only the hordes of
monsters kept it interesting.
45-50 points: The map was complex enough to be interesting, but the
way to exit was basically straightforward)
3. Other: artwork/continuity/"feel".
0-25 points: the level was a mishmash of different
textures/patterns, everything was a jumble.
everything was too dark/too light.
- or -
everything was STARTAN3 etc. etc.
25-50 points: the were enough different "areas" to keep it
interesting, but there was some sense of continuity.
The light level varied appropriately.
TECHNICAL MERIT:
1. Required elements:
Did at least one of the levels contain: [-3 for each ommission]
[] stairway
[] rising stairway
[] teleporter
[] door
[] secret door
[] keycard door
[] switch
[] switch door (not same as above)
[] raising/lowering floor
[] crushing ceiling
[] damaging floor
[] F_SKY1 ceiling
[] lift
[] exit pad/switch (-5 for ommission per level)
[] other (suggestions for additions)
+5 if diffuiculty settings implemented
+5 if multi player
2. Errors:
-10 for crippling errors (example: the exit door will not open)
-5 for each serious hall of mirrors/medusa effect
-2 for each tutti-frutti error etc.
3. Complexity: similar to above, from a technical stamdpoint
rather than "is this level complex enough to be interesting." A
level that lost points above for being too complicated could make
them up here.
=================================================================
You may notice that this scoring system was written for DOOM I.
If you are interested in using it, let me know and I can easily
revise it to include DOOM ][ features (blazing door, etc.). Also I
think it needs a little work in other areas too, like bonus point
for invisible doors/walls/pits/stairs etc.
- -j
=============================================================================
Jeremy Holland jdh15@po.cwru.edu
H H
\ /
H - O C - C C - H
\ // \\ /
C - C C - N
/ \ / \
H C = C C - H
/ \
H H
==============================
Para-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde
Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, Ohio
http://maniac.cwru.edu/deth/
------------------------------
From: "Jason Hoffoss" <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 12:48:07 CST
Subject: Re: Editor import question
On Sat, 25 Feb 1995 13:00:58 -0800 (PST),
Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Feb 1995, Jason Hoffoss wrote:
>> >Is there an editor that allows import of a list vertices coordinates (x,y)
>> >via a text file, Ive looked but can see a way to make DEU5.21 do it.
>
>> None I know of, but I could write up a quick little C program to do this
>> and save it to a pwad in maybe an hour. Then you could use that in the
>> Editors. Interested?
>
>Just a suggestion (which may be obvious): make the first pair of coords
>in the text file be an "origin" inside the PWAD's space, and everything
>after that be relative to the PWAD--this will save a lot of typing--if I
>recall, the ranges of x and y values inside a PWAD are ridiculously huge.
Or center the map around the origin, which is probably what I'd do. You'd
just check all vertexes and make a bounding box for the whole map, and
then average the two extremes. I use this in my editor even. :)
-Jason
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 13:12:31 CST
Subject: Re: .WAD scoring system
> Since everyone seems to be agreeable on having everyone write
> several levels and then picking the best, I though I would send you
> all the scoring sheet I used when I ran a level-writing contest
> here at my school... It may or may not be useful, but it gives
> reminders about what's important to make a .WAD good.
Just a few comments....
[Chop Chop]
> 3. Other: artwork/continuity/"feel".
> 0-25 points: the level was a mishmash of different
> textures/patterns, everything was a jumble.
> everything was too dark/too light.
> - or -
> everything was STARTAN3 etc. etc.
> 25-50 points: the were enough different "areas" to keep it
> interesting, but there was some sense of continuity.
> The light level varied appropriately.
One thing most people miss in judging the artistic feel of a level is
3-d artistry. IMHO, this is where most home-brew levels miss out. For
example, go check out IDMAP01.WAD and look at the ceiling in the BFG room.
Does that help you at all? Not a bit. Does it look cool? Very. Or what
about little things like cubby holes on the wall (Check out E1M4, in the
room before the almost swastika, or E2M1 in the hallway before the first
slimepit). What about windows (E2M1, by the blue keycard)?
I think texture congruence is very very important, but so are these little
pieces of look-nice. It's what keeps large rooms from getting bland
(Like the funky layout of windows into the first large room in E1M4)
Oh, and lets not forget decoration objects. I usually do, but I shouldn't. ;)
Are they haphazardly placed? Does the level editor use so many throbbing
bodies on a stick you'd think they just sacrificed their cat to Satan?
Stuff like that.
> 1. Required elements:
> Did at least one of the levels contain: [-3 for each ommission]
> [] stairway
> [] rising stairway
> [] teleporter
> [] door
> [] secret door
> [] keycard door
> [] switch
> [] switch door (not same as above)
> [] raising/lowering floor
> [] crushing ceiling
> [] damaging floor
> [] F_SKY1 ceiling
You know... I was thinking about this. I went through all of Episode 1 of
DOOM and every single level has a sky texture in at least one place. The
only level I can think of in DOOM I that doesn't have a sky texture in it
is E2M9.
> [] lift
> [] exit pad/switch (-5 for ommission per level)
> [] other (suggestions for additions)
Secret weapon
> +5 if diffuiculty settings implemented
> +5 if multi player
> 2. Errors:
> -10 for crippling errors (example: the exit door will not open)
> -5 for each serious hall of mirrors/medusa effect
> -2 for each tutti-frutti error etc.
- -2 for each slimepit you can't get out of
- -8 extra if the slimepit is not -20 health
> 3. Complexity: similar to above, from a technical stamdpoint
> rather than "is this level complex enough to be interesting." A
> level that lost points above for being too complicated could make
> them up here.
And how do you propose to score this?
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 12:01:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Editor import question
> On Sat, 25 Feb 1995 13:00:58 -0800 (PST),
> Or center the map around the origin, which is probably what I'd do. You'd
> just check all vertexes and make a bounding box for the whole map, and
> then average the two extremes. I use this in my editor even. :)
Even better.
/ads@netcom.com
[LC/Cardy/Kilwren/Cardenyl
\PASO/Paradigm/Storm
---------------------------->
A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but
won't cross the street to vote in a national election.
-- Bill Vaughan
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #189
**********************************
