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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 185
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #185
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Friday, 24 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 185
re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (
Quake... and id-ea
Re: THE WAD - Update part3
Re: The WAD
Re: Better goals
re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (
I know no Michael Abrash ;)
Re: The WAD: game engine
Re: The Wad
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: "The WAD" Counter
EMAIL ME (Re:Wad)
Re: The Big WAD
I know no Michael Abrash ;)
Re: "The WAD": Theme
Re: The WAD
THE Wad(s?)
Let's move this to...
Project Name Recommendation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jason Hoffoss" <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 08:53:15 CST
Subject: re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (
On Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:13:00 -0500,
Matt Tagliaferri <matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com> wrote:
>
>DO>> Finally, implement some pre-fab operations: stairs, teleporters,
>DO>> etc...
>
>DO>Stairs: I'd love to do it. I think it'd be wonderful. If I have time for
>DO>something fun that I want to do (as opposed to stuff like being able to type
>DO>in strings for texture names like I have to do), I'll do this. I think I'll
>DO>make it #1 of the fun things to do. :)
>
>I will suplly my prefab source if anyone's interested. Of course, I doubt
>anyone will be, as it's written in Visual Basic. But the routines are pretty
>much drudgery, and having source might be a good roadmap...
I'll take a look at them. Theory might be better, but source is good too.
:) I'll let you know if I come up with any veriations on your methods.
Usually hearing other's ideas on things can get you starting thinking in
the right direction. I haven't really looked at Dcad for quite a while
now. Should probably get the latest version to check out. Your editor is
up to 99% BOB compliant, huh? Do you check for missing textures showing
up when floors/ceilings move? I'd be interested in how you've decided to
go about checking for this. Seems to me like you need to make assumption
about linetypes, and I would rather not do that, to leave it flexible.
Dunno..
One last thing too. The 3D preview you've got in Dcad is from some
library, right? Is the source available with it as well? Or are you just
stuck is what you've got? I've started working with 3D preview as well.
If you can change it, you probably should to utilize a BSP tree if
available. It can be a LOT faster.
-Jason
------------------------------
From: M&Ms <millerm@uwwvax.uww.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:03:16 CST
Subject: Quake... and id-ea
Yes, agree with split, etc., bla-bla-bla.
I'm sure we all read the nice post by John about Quake. Sure, we might
be able to design new levels easier (with editors we have to build...unless
they include one). Yes, it might be easy to incorporate new sound effects
or new graphics. But, if this game is so much ahead of DOOM/DOOM2/Heretic,
then wouldn't you think that more frames would be required for graphics?
And remember that the min requirements for Quake are higher than DOOM/DOOM2.
And that there is no music background (so why design it to let you put one
in?). I'm not saying it won't be easier...but as hardware requirements go
up, and as you get something that seems more realistic, it is usually harder
(aka longer) to get things going. This is all based on rumors and
Quaketalk txt... just some theorizing....
P.S. Quake is down the road. DOOM/DOOM2 are here now. Remember, there will
be a ramp-up for Quake and time to get editors going. And (I'll shut up after
this) how long can we talk about HOM, line defs, etc. over and over...people
are twiddling their thumbs (and from the traffic on id-ea you can tell
that people are anxious for something).
_ o o | Michael(M&M's)(millerm@uwwvax.uww.edu)(TEAM OS2) | _ _ o o
\/o\ o o | Working? at UW-Whitewater; Ren- SysSnot HHJJ BBS | \/o\o\ o
/\_/ | (414-699-5560; 9am-2am CST; VBBS/2) | /\_/_/
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 15:08:33 +0100
Subject: Re: THE WAD - Update part3
> 2. We may have to watch out for people's expectations. I have a gut
> feeling that this won't turn out the way everyone wishes, since everyone
> has a different view of what we're making. Some think a totally new game
> (with the Doom engine), some just want a rehash of the plot of Doom, etc
> etc.
>
Err... Let me say it again: let's split the project in two. If we don't
do that, there will be no way to keep everyone happy. This original idea
for this project was to create 27 or 32 new levels, and put them together
in a big WAD file, that's all. Then it grew out of control because some
people wanted new monsters, new textures, etc. There are lots of good
ideas, but some people do not want to take part in such a big project. So
let's split the project in two, the first part for those who want a quick
release and the second part for those who want a Total Conversion.
> #1 - First we need to decide what the theme is!!
Theme, or themes. If we use Doom 1 or Heretic as a basis, we have three
episodes to play with, thus three possible themes. I strongly suggest that
the first project uses a theme close to Doom, because this has proven to
be successful. :-)
> Finally (for now): I assume that Doom2 is the desired engine for everybody
> here. 32 levels, 36 musics, 15+ Bad guys, and 50+
> textures make for a good selection of things to swap!
>
No! Didn't you read all the previous articles? There is a vote going on
about which engine should be used. If you want to express your opinion,
send your vote to Michael Biggs <mbiggs@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>. But don't
assume that everybody agrees with you!
I, for one, don't want to use Doom 2! The two engines are identical and
it is possible to use Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 if we provide some pictures
for them. So we have to look somewhere else for a difference. And this
is where Doom 1 scores better than Doom 2: it has three episodes instead
of one big set of levels, and nice intermission screens that show your
progress. Having three episodes means that you can more easily balance
the difficulty levels, since each episode begins from scratch.
So my vote is for Doom 1. And let's wait for the results of the vote
before deciding anything...
Note that for the second project, I vote for Heretic, because the engine
is more powerful and we can expect that more people will have registered
by the time the second project is ready (hopefully before Quake is released).
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: David Damerell <djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 14:19:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: The WAD
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Anthony Spataro wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, John Romero wrote:
> > There will be a tremendous Quake around that time. And you will
> > all laugh at how small and silly and hard-to-modify DOOM is. You will
> > instantly forget about DOOM, just as you all have forgotten about Wolf 3D.
> That's a good question, actually. A whole new IWAD (or massive PWAD, or
> whatever) is going to involve much work over an extended period of time.
> Unless everybody involved can be made to work intensely on the project,
> it's most like going to drag on for several months. Perhaps even into
> the fall, at which point it really will cease to be especially relevant.
I wouldn't bet all your money on Quake making DooM obsolete. Frontier
didn't kill Elite, now did it? DooM killed Wolfie, but DooM had the same
feel as Wolfie only more so. Quake will kill Heretic all right, but DooM?
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Trinity, Cambridge
WOODHAL2.WAD ftpable. CUWoCS President. METLMAZE.WAD sometime soonish.
|___| Loneliness pours over you: Emptiness can pull you through. |___|
| | | Your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me... Queen, '39. | | |
------------------------------
From: David Damerell <djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 14:27:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Better goals
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995 DTeeter@aol.com wrote:
> I have these suggestions:
> 1. First, realize that 3D is a new and an entirely different media from film.
> Please don't remake a movie!
> The Aliens wads are an astounding technical acheivment, but was anyone
> surprised or amazed when they saw the Aliens, eggs, or crab-guys? Was there
> any sense of discovery?
Heheheh. I was surprised, all right: I damn near sh*t myself. OTOH, I
don't think there are many movies that lend themselves to DooM as well as
Aliens does. I agree that a film remake is a bad idea for this.
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Trinity, Cambridge
WOODHAL2.WAD ftpable. CUWoCS President. METLMAZE.WAD sometime soonish.
|___| Loneliness pours over you: Emptiness can pull you through. |___|
| | | Your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me... Queen, '39. | | |
------------------------------
From: Raphael.Quinet@eed.ericsson.se
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 15:34:38 +0100
Subject: re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (
On Fri, 24 Feb 95, Jason Hoffoss <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
[...]
> up to 99% BOB compliant, huh? Do you check for missing textures showing
> up when floors/ceilings move? I'd be interested in how you've decided to
> go about checking for this. Seems to me like you need to make assumption
> about linetypes, and I would rather not do that, to leave it flexible.
I don't know how Matt does it, but DEU 5.3 has some structures with detailled
information about the properties of each LineDef type. This allows me to
test for floors moving up and down, locked doors that need a corresponding
key, lines that need (or don't need) a tag, etc. There are also some
structures for the properties of the Things.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: Bill Bessette <dsquid@li.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:41:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: I know no Michael Abrash ;)
So who is this guy? Clue me in....
Bill
+====================+========================================+
| William Bessette |"The most merciful thing in the world, |
| Systems Analyst | I think, is the inability of the human |
| New York, NY | mind to correlate all its contents." |
+====================+========================================+
| dsquid@li.net | http://www.li.net/~dsquid/sepia.html |
+====================+========================================+
------------------------------
From: thldrmn@sam.neosoft.com (Ty Halderman)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:14:37 -0600
Subject: Re: The WAD: game engine
From Keith Reid:
>What would seem to be the best idea I've had so far would be to spawn a few
>different mailing lists. One for a "Doom1 `The Wad'", one for a "Doom2 `The
>Wad2'", and one for "Heretic `The HWad'". =8)
I think since really all 3 are similar in nature that you'd diminish the
synergy we are naturally going to develop. Things you read about an idea on
another version can certainly give you ideas about your own. I've seen
messages about problems people were having in their WADs that gave me ideas
for mine, and I unabashedly stole^H^H^H^H^H Synergistically Tailored Over
Lesser Efforts them :)
=-Ty Halderman ( thldrmn@sam.neosoft.com )
"There I stood, mesmerized, like a lemming admiring the sea..."
------------------------------
From: Ed Phillips <flaregun@udel.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:42:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: The Wad
On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Jeff Ross wrote:
> I like the INDIANA JONES theme - JonesTC.wad
>
I like the INDIANA JONES theme too... I can't easily paly DM, so...
An Indy theme could be good for (mostly) single-player (lots of traps and
puzzles and plenty of shooting too).
Ed
/****************************************************************************/
/* Ed Phillips flaregun@udel.edu University of Delaware */
/* Jr Systems Programmer (302) 831-6082 IT/Network and Systems Services */
/****************************************************************************/
------------------------------
From: jumpstile@fortunat.pdial.interpath.net (Jumpstile Turner)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:47:44 -0500
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
I hate to be negative, but, if I had started this project on my own I'd
have 4 levels done already. The rate you guys are going this wad thing will
never happen. Did you ever hear the story that after a certain amount of
people a project will actually start taking longer? Well, its happening
right here. 50 new messages every 8 hours on the average and nothing has
even been done yet except to put up a web site (which of course only took
one person to do). Before you guys do anything might I suggest you figure
out WHO is going to work on this "project" and once you do the decision
process will go a bit faster because the only people that will be deciding
things are the people that are actually working on it.
-Scott
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jumpstile@fortunat.pdial.interpath.net / This space available
"Sing the Hare Hare, Dance the Hoochie Koo!" / for advertising. ;)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:52:42 EST
Subject: Re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (
"Jason Hoffoss" <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu> ,in message <45794.hoffo002@gold.tc.
umn.edu>, wrote:
> Your editor is
> up to 99% BOB compliant, huh? Do you check for missing textures showing
> up when floors/ceilings move? I'd be interested in how you've decided to
> go about checking for this. Seems to me like you need to make assumption
> about linetypes, and I would rather not do that, to leave it flexible.
Triple-star items are not required for 100% Bob compliance. I have updated
the doc to mention this. Even I don't plan to add that check to the PFME.
> One last thing too. The 3D preview you've got in Dcad is from some
> library, right?
That reminds me. In a few months, PFME may have walk-through with textures
and sprites. It's not under my control, however. Love that Linux/X!
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 9:54:11 CST
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
> > That could be a stickler... how do we do difficulty levels? I don't
> > think a "formula" will work, since each WAD will be different, and yet
> > how can we judge objectively? (But uniformity IS good, in case I'm
> > coming across wrong here.)
>
> One thing we could do: Say I was assigned to write E3M4. I go to
> the FAQ, find out how many monsters of which type, how much ammo,
> health, bonuses, etc. there are on that level. Then I am required
> to stay within 10% of those numbers. (with exceptions like if
> there's lots of darkness or acid pools then extra light amps or rad
> suits to taste) This would have the advantage of not only keepng
> our levels consistent with each other, but keeping them close in
> difficulty to iD's original levels, which I felt were a decent
> balance of ammo vs. monsters.
I considered such a formula myself. There's no good way of accounting for
acid pools or players using berzerk very well, but other than that you
just need to compare maximum damage you can do versus total monster health
and the maximum damage you will probably take versus the total health
bonuses. The consider stuff like invulnerability a very large health
increase (anyone else berzerk barons when they're invulnerable?). Then all
you need to consider is what coefficients you will use to compare the two
ratios together. Don't get all too worried about a rating system though.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: Ed Phillips <flaregun@udel.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:57:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: "The WAD" Counter
>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 95, Raphael.Quinet wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, I think we should have several votes:
> > 1) - Do we split the project in two?
> > 2) - If we split the project, what engine will be used for the first WAD?
> > 3) - And what engine will be used for the second WAD + DeHackEd patches?
> >
>
1) Yes
2) Doom 2 -- maybe that would help to push the release of DEU 5.3 :)
3) Heretic
Ed
/****************************************************************************/
/* Ed Phillips flaregun@udel.edu University of Delaware */
/* Jr Systems Programmer (302) 831-6082 IT/Network and Systems Services */
/****************************************************************************/
------------------------------
From: hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca (Enigma)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:01:47 -0800
Subject: EMAIL ME (Re:Wad)
I've set up a very informal database to collect information from people
wishing to contribute to the wad project.
*This is only for those people who wish to contribute to a Doom 1 or 2 based
add-on project (not a total-remake ie. Aliens-TC). Understand: I'm only
interested in people who wish to continue id's original Doom theme. Please
do not send me a reply if you want to do a Jurassic Park or David Letterman
remake: this is for UAC, death, and hell -- not the stay-puffed marshmallow man.
Please send me email with the subject "wad-base" containing any number of
the following words to indicate your participation in the project, do not
include descriptions: ONE WORD ONLY separated by carriage returns (enters):
levels - I want to be a level editor for the project
textures - I want to be a texture editor for the project
sounds - I want to be a sound editor for the project
music - I am a MIDI musician who can write songs for the project
have-scanner - I have a scanner, and will use it for the project
have-video - I have a video camera and will use it for the project
artist - I am an artist, and can draw at id's level or higher
...Followed by your email address.
Example:
SUBJECT: wad-base
- -------------------------
levels
sounds
askbill@microsoft.com
BTW: Please fill in as few fields as you can. Only type "artist" if you
really think you can draw wall-panels as well as id can. Thank you very much
for participating. I will post results periodically. If you have any
questions, please email me with the subject "wad-base-help" and I will
gladly give you some.
***************************************************************************
enigma <hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca>
***************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: thekid@ornews.intel.com (Brian Kidby)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:20:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: The Big WAD
>
> There's been some talk about how excellent iD's levels are,
> and I agree, except for one minor point: What is level one? "The
> Hangar" Does it look like a hangar? Not to me. We could try
> writing 27 levels, each one actually looks like what it's called.
> Obviously on some (Deimos Anomoly, Dis) we'd have free reign, but
> "Military base," "Command center" etc. could be made to look like
> their namesakes...
>
> just a thought, my one for the day...
>
> -j
>
Excellent! This is what I've been trying to do for the last 20 levels
I've started (of which I've only been able to finish 2).
Brian
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kid My thoughts and actions are strictly my own.
thekid@ornews.intel.com Do not hold my employers responsible.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: mark.mathews@channel1.com (Mark Mathews)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:59:00 -0500
Subject: I know no Michael Abrash ;)
He wrote several books. One of the best is Zen of Assembly Language,
Volume 1, Knowledge. This is a must read for writing assember code.
He also worked for Microsoft and another company (I don't remember
the name) that makes graphics package. He must be contracting his work
out to different companies. I wonder if Quake will be written in
assembler code.
Mark Mathews
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:44:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: "The WAD": Theme
On Fri, 24 Feb 1995, Robert E Arthur wrote:
>
> Simple - extensive playtesting. I never play Doom on less that UV (for the
> standard levels), yet I feel that I am more than capable of producing diff
> levels for my wads.
I do the same, but what if I was twice as good of a player as you
(hehe, not trying to imply anything here), and when I designed a level,
the UV mode was twice as tough as yours? It would be inconsistent,
although if both of our WADs were played separately, people wouldn't have
a problem. Put them together though and people expect similar difficulties.
Greg
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:51:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: The WAD
> > Michael Abrash! He will be here Saturday and officially start on Monday! Oh,
> > yes. Quake will rule the cosmos. And for much longer than DOOM could hope
> > for. Just had to stir the pot -- talk to y'all later!
> >
> congratulations to your new co-worker. maybe you can fill us in on
> his previous work or past. I do not recognize the name. Am I supposed to?
Although I've only heard about him for a week (on
rec.games.programmer), it appears he is a well-known programmer who has
done some impressive articles in Dr. Dobbs Journal (?) in the past. He
"discovered" Mode X, which is the video mode that I believe Doom, Descent
etc all use. He's basically a really cool graphics programming person.
I'm drooling for Quake now.
Greg
> I am Pentium of Borg.
> You will be Approximated.
> Precision is futile.
> Math as you know it, is over...
ROTFL! This is great!
------------------------------
From: M&Ms <millerm@uwwvax.uww.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:54:46 CST
Subject: THE Wad(s?)
If things are split up... can't we do a little sharing of stuff like
levels? If project one is designed around a theme, can't we use the level
design for that. Project 2 can use the exact same levels but with new
monsters, etc. I would also say that we might want to build in slow. Replace
one set of textures at a time. One type of monster. A TC is nice but
there might be a point where everyone (on the 2nd project) might say, "hey,
this is enough...it all meshes fine." Just some random thoughts.
P.S. Can we get some specs on Quake? John? Guess not... :)
_ o o | Michael(M&M's)(millerm@uwwvax.uww.edu)(TEAM OS2) | _ _ o o
\/o\ o o | Working? at UW-Whitewater; Ren- SysSnot HHJJ BBS | \/o\o\ o
/\_/ | (414-699-5560; 9am-2am CST; VBBS/2) | /\_/_/
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 95 12:00:59 -0500
Subject: Let's move this to...
Hey,
Remember the 'The WAD TEAM'? That list is still alive and hasn't been
the most active for the past couple of months. I asked Mike Gholson
(the list's care taker) if he would mind if we moved this there and,
he said it sounded like the perfect place for it. So, I suggest that
we move. What do you guys think?
John
__________________________________________________________
#include <stupidstuff.h>
#define USER "johnw" /* John Wakelin */
/* Johnw@datametrics.com */
main() /* (703) 385 7700 */
{
while (isstupid(USER)) ignore(USER);
}
------------------------------
From: thekid@ornews.intel.com (Brian Kidby)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:33:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Project Name Recommendation
Since I suffer from terminal designers-block, here's my contribution to
'the project'...
DOOM: EVILUTION
Let me know whatcha think.
Brian
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kid My thoughts and actions are strictly my own.
thekid@ornews.intel.com Do not hold my employers responsible.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #185
**********************************
