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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 102
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #102
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Thursday, 29 December 1994 Volume 01 : Number 102
Re: DESCENT: Anyone seen this?
Re: Rise of the Triad
Re: DESCENT: Anyone seen this?
sidedef mode
Re: Rise of the Triad
Descent levels
Re: sidedef mode
Where to get DESCENT
Re: DESCENT: Anyone seen this?
mailing lists....
Re: sidedef mode
Re: mailing lists....
Re: Rise of the Triad
Coordinate problems
Re: Coordinate problems
Re: Re: Descent? / Heretic
Be open-minded!!
Be frito-minded!!
Re: Be frito-minded!!
DoomCad help please
Re: Coordinate problems -Reply
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Hurricane/ -=[ Woo woo!! ]=-" <bhume@is.dal.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 22:29:36 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Re: DESCENT: Anyone seen this?
On Tue, 27 Dec 1994, Matt Ayres wrote:
> Uhm, anyhow, on topic (a little), has anyone heard anything about map
> editing Descent? Does it allow external patch files? Does Interplay
> want people to edit it? Has anyone figured anything about the .PIG and
> .HOG files? I hope everyone realizes an editor for Descent would be in
> 3D wire-frame :) I'm going to start working on one, at least a 3D
> wire-frame editor (this should prove interesting, eh?).. and hopefully
> find the specs for Descent (or take the time to figure them out myself,
> ugh) to integrate that in with my editor. That is, unless I hear
> Interplay has an editor for DOS already...
Does anyone know if Interplay has an email address? I'm sure they could
see the business advantages of a level editor for the registered version
only. They might be able to tell us SOMETHING about the level setup,
even if only vaguely.
} Brandon "Hurricane" Hume {
{ bhume@is.dal.ca|Brandon.Hume@viocomm.alt.ns.ca|Hurricane@alt.tbbs.ns.ca }
} "Without honor, there can be no true victory... {
{ With honor, there is no real defeat." }
\_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_/
------------------------------
From: BonesBro@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 21:40:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Rise of the Triad
I spent over an hour downloading it, and I played it for all of 5 minutes. I
thought it was terrible. The animation of the foes has about 3 frames. They
look terrible. Control is jerky and the look up/down seems so much worse than
Heretic's. First look up. Then, with painstaking slowness, aim up. Then fire
at what has probably already killed you. 75 minutes to download, 5 minutes to
delete. Grade: D-
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 21:48:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: DESCENT: Anyone seen this?
> Does anyone know if Interplay has an email address? I'm sure they could
> see the business advantages of a level editor for the registered version
> only. They might be able to tell us SOMETHING about the level setup,
> even if only vaguely.
Try support@interplay.com (listed in the readme).
Is this list going to broaden it's gaming topic? I know everything the
past few days has been off-topic, and I'm wondering if there are plans
for another mailing list (or several), or if we should just talk about it
as long as no one complains... Comments?
Greg
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 23:23:26 EST
Subject: sidedef mode
If your editor had a sidedef editing mode like mine, what key would you use
to warp to the mode? 'S', the logical choice, is already bound to sector
mode. I picked 'D', a bit lame, but still workable.
------------------------------
From: Dopefish <decerman@ouray.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 21:58:50 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Rise of the Triad
On Tue, 27 Dec 1994 BonesBro@aol.com wrote:
> I spent over an hour downloading it, and I played it for all of 5 minutes. I
> thought it was terrible. The animation of the foes has about 3 frames. They
> look terrible. Control is jerky and the look up/down seems so much worse than
> Heretic's. First look up. Then, with painstaking slowness, aim up. Then fire
> at what has probably already killed you. 75 minutes to download, 5 minutes to
> delete. Grade: D-
This is not meant to be flamebait, but I'd just like to point out that
this list is supposed to be for advanced DOOM editing. I think it's
hipocritical to flame people asking simple DOOM editing questions and
then go off turning this list into a general extension of c.s.i.p.g.a.
Just my 2 cents...
------------------------------
From: Ethan Brodsky <ERICBRODSKY@psl.wisc.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 00:04 CST
Subject: Descent levels
I'd like to comment on the realism of Descent. It appears that when weapons
are fired through semi-transparent textures, they will go through transparent
portions and explode if they hit solid portions. An example of this is the
fan on the first mission. If you fire through the bars and don't hit the fan
blades, it lasers go through and hit the wall behind. If they hit a fan
blade (Keep trying), they will explode. I was also impressed with the sound
effects. When you are near the fan, you can here it turning. Do you think
that this will be customizable? When are the Descent specs coming out? Have
they been started yet?
Ethan Brodsky
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 1:06:02 CST
Subject: Re: sidedef mode
> If your editor had a sidedef editing mode like mine, what key would you use
> to warp to the mode? 'S', the logical choice, is already bound to sector
> mode. I picked 'D', a bit lame, but still workable.
Have you considered binding the sidedef editing mode to the linedef editing
mode? I know DEU does this, as might other editors. This has the added
bonus of at partially making the internals more transparent. Ie, sidedefs
aren't just some things floating out there; they're bound to certain lines.
Which reminds me... Is there any editor out there that has made vertices
a "transparent" internal wad structure, like the nodes, reject, and blockmap?
I mean... The user doesn't really know they're there (or at least doesn't
have to know they're there to edit a decent level). My guess is that this
would make editors easier to use.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: chall@tcpet.uscg.mil
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 23:37:04 -0800
Subject: Where to get DESCENT
GET DESCENT NOW.... IT RULES!
The places that I know where DESCENT is avaliable are:
Wuarchive.wustl.edu
/pub/msdos_uploads/descent
(get descent1.zip and descent2.zip)
Ftp.cdrom.com
/pub/descent
------------------------------
From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 20:42:00 -0500
Subject: Re: DESCENT: Anyone seen this?
- -> Definitely agreed. Modem play is flawless as well. Technologically,
- -> this game is better than DOOM. What we need is a level editor for
- -> this game to make some seriously great deathmatch "wads".
I'm working on it.... :)
matt tag
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
PC-Ohio PCBoard pcohio.com
The Best BBS in America Cleveland, OH
DATA: 216-381-3320 FAX: 216-291-2685
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Kevin Way <kway@omni.voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 07:07:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: mailing lists....
On Tue, 27 Dec 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
>
> Is this list going to broaden it's gaming topic? I know everything the
> past few days has been off-topic, and I'm wondering if there are plans
> for another mailing list (or several), or if we should just talk about it
> as long as no one complains... Comments?
>
I think it makes more sense to allow this mailing list to broaden rather
than starting a whole new list. After all, I could be wrong, but I bet
every single one of us is going to get into Heretic and (if possible)
descent editing, so why not keep it all on one list?
JMHO.
- -Kevin
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 10:11:41 EST
Subject: Re: sidedef mode
tedv@geom.umn.edu ,in message <199412280706.AA03482@bers.geom.umn.edu>, wrote:
> > If your editor had a sidedef editing mode like mine, what key would you u
>> se
> > to warp to the mode? 'S', the logical choice, is already bound to sector
> > mode. I picked 'D', a bit lame, but still workable.
>
> Have you considered binding the sidedef editing mode to the linedef editing
> mode?
That's how I have it currently. DEU has sidedefs bound to the linedef.
This has quite a few drawbacks that I decided to fix by adding a separate
sidedef mode.
With sidedef mode you can do a multi-edit on textures that are on either
side of a linedef. Before you had to edit all lines whose right sidedef you
were interested in, then edit all lines whose left sidedef you were
interested in. With a sidedef mode you can just mark the sector, shift-tab,
and bingo, all the sector's sidedefs are marked so you can change all the
textures at once. (Of course, you can unmark individual sidedefs that
recieve special treatment, or just mark the ones you're interested in).
Sidedef mode makes it much easier to do texture alignment. The machine
doesn't have to do as much work to figure out what the user is asking.
> Which reminds me... Is there any editor out there that has made vertices
> a "transparent" internal wad structure,
So, like how are you going twiddle one vertex? This is done rather often.
Vertex mode still has its uses. I could reduce the usage of vertex mode by
adding a "draw sector" function that swaps in a new FSA for button clicks,
but that's a little more work that I feel like doing right now. Maybe
later.
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 10:13:11 EST
Subject: Re: mailing lists....
Kevin Way <kway@omni.voicenet.com> ,in message <Pine.SOL.3.91.941228070541.1036
A-100000@omni>, wrote:
> I think it makes more sense to allow this mailing list to broaden rather
> than starting a whole new list. After all, I could be wrong, but I bet
> every single one of us is going to get into Heretic and (if possible)
> descent editing, so why not keep it all on one list?
Heretic I can see since (WADwise) it is almost identical to doom.
I personally will not get into Descent, nor will I be interested in the
finer points of polygonal extrusion and ceiling ambushes. I feel it is alien
enough to deserve its own list (because I'm not interested :).
------------------------------
From: rrward@netcom.com (Richard Ward)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 07:47:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Rise of the Triad
Dopefish stated:
>
> On Tue, 27 Dec 1994 BonesBro@aol.com wrote:
[BonesBro@aol.com's tirade against ROtT deleted]
>
> This is not meant to be flamebait, but I'd just like to point out that
> this list is supposed to be for advanced DOOM editing. I think it's
> hipocritical to flame people asking simple DOOM editing questions and
> then go off turning this list into a general extension of c.s.i.p.g.a.
A more eloquent (sp?) wording of what I tried to say a few days ago. This is
the (advanced) DOOM editing mailing list, not alt.games.doom or c.s.i.p.g.a.
I subscribed to this mailing list so I could discuss DOOM editing concepts
without having to plow through tone of off-topic drek that always ends up in
the newsgroups. Of all the letters that have come through this list in the
last week, almost none of them have been on-topic. Take the off-topic stuff
elsewhere.
And to the jack-off who told me that there is nothing you can do about it -
Bullshit. This is a mailing list, people can (and should) be unsubscribed.
Richard
------------------------------
From: Wade Williams <wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 14:30:24 -0600
Subject: Coordinate problems
I'd like to hear some comments from some of you about the relationship of
the DOOM coordinate space to the physical device coordinate space.
I'm working on a WAD editor for Macintosh since Macintosh DOOM will be
able to use PC WADs when it is released.
The Macintosh supports the theoretical limit of DOOM maps (-32768 to
32767) and it'd be wonderful to allow maps to be that large.
Unfortunately, some simple math tells us that a coordinate space that
large which is related to a pixel image buffer would require over a gig of
memory just to hold the screen buffer (at 8-bit color).
I assume the situation is no different on the PC. So, obviously, the map
coordinate system cannot be related to an image buffer. So my questions
are:
A) What strategies do you use for displaying an image which is far too
large to fit in an image buffer. Obviously you've got to only display a
portion at a time, but I'd like to hear how some others have done it.
B) What techniques have you used for zooming/unzooming?
Any thoughts on the above subjects greatly appreciated.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wade Williams "Any escape might help to smooth
Telecommunications Consultant the unattractive truth, but the
State of Tennessee suburbs have no charms to soothe
(615) 741-8678 the restless dreams of youth."
wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us -Neil Peart of Rush
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 16:47:47 EST
Subject: Re: Coordinate problems
Wade Williams <wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us> ,in message <sf017521.015@langate.tn
et.state.tn.us>, wrote:
> A) What strategies do you use for displaying an image which is far too
> large to fit in an image buffer. Obviously you've got to only display a
> portion at a time, but I'd like to hear how some others have done it.
Uh, it's a time-honored graphics technique called "clipping". The
windowing system doesn't bother drawing stuff that's off screen.
Hmm, does anyone know if PEX (PHIGS Extension to X) does antialiasing?
Could be fun to have antialiased linedefs :)
// map to screen
void mapview::transform(int ix, int iy, int *ox, int *oy) const
{
if (ox) *ox = so_x + (ix)*scaleDivider / scale;
if (oy) *oy = so_y - (iy)*scaleDivider / scale;
}
// screen to map
void mapview::untransform(int ix, int iy, int *ox, int *oy) const
{
if (ox) *ox = (ix - so_x)*scale/scaleDivider;
if (oy) *oy = (so_y - iy)*scale/scaleDivider;
}
// screen to map
void mapview::untransform(int ix, int iy, double *ox, double *oy) const
{
if (ox) *ox = (ix - so_x)*(double)scale/scaleDivider;
if (oy) *oy = (so_y - iy)*(double)scale/scaleDivider;
}
void mapview::draw_linedef(Window win, GC pen, Region region, int idx,
bool arrowright, bool arrowleft) const
{
const linedef &curr = context->linedef_(idx);
if (!curr.vertbounds(*context))
return; // not much we can do about those...
const vertex &v0 = context->vertex_(curr.v[0]);
const vertex &v1 = context->vertex_(curr.v[1]);
int x0, y0;
int x1, y1;
transform(v0.x, v0.y, &x0, &y0);
transform(v1.x, v1.y, &x1, &y1);
if (INT16(x0) != x0 ||
INT16(y0) != y0 ||
INT16(x1) != x1 ||
INT16(y1) != y1)
return; // these are beyond X\'s rendering capability
if (region) {
int x = x0;
int y = y0;
int width = x1-x0;
int height = y1-y0;
if (width<0) {
x += width;
width = -width;
}
if (height<0) {
y += height;
height = -height;
}
width++;
height++;
if (RectangleOut == XRectInRegion(region, x, y, width, height))
return; // not necessary to draw
}
XDrawLine(dpy(), win, gc, x0, y0, x1, y1);
if (arrowright || arrowleft) {
double radius = curr.Dlength(*context)/5*scaleDivider/scale;
if (radius<arrow_minlen)
radius = arrow_minlen;
else if (radius>arrow_maxlen)
radius = arrow_maxlen;
Dvertex v2, v3;
vertex dv = v1-v0;
v2.x = dv.x*-arrow_cos + dv.y*-arrow_sin;
v2.y = dv.x*-arrow_sin + dv.y* arrow_cos;
v3.x = dv.x*-arrow_cos + dv.y* arrow_sin;
v3.y = dv.x* arrow_sin + dv.y* arrow_cos;
double nrm = norm(dv);
if (nrm>0) {
v2 = v2*radius/nrm;
v3 = v3*radius/nrm;
XPoint points[3];
int count=0;
if (arrowright) {
points[count].x = x1+(int)v2.x; points[count].y = y1+(int)v2.y;
count++;
}
points[count].x = x1; points[count].y = y1;
count++;
if (arrowleft) {
points[count].x = x1+(int)v3.x; points[count].y = y1+(int)v3.y;
count++;
}
XDrawLines(dpy(), win, gc, points, count, CoordModeOrigin);
}
}
}
> B) What techniques have you used for zooming/unzooming?
alter the data member (scale) above and redraw.
------------------------------
From: djr@infinet.com (Dan J. Rockwell)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 16:46:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: Descent? / Heretic
>
>
>
> Consider trying Waded 1.71, found on ftp.cdrom.com. It's the
> best, or actually only, Heretic editor that I know of...
> Expect to see H2.WAD on ftp.cdrom.com soon, my first Heretic
> wad..
>
I've tried using WADED171 and well as the author sometimes states it's kinda
beta. I haven't been able to make a playable wad yet. I'm very comfortable
with EDmap, I hope it supports Herertic soon.
All in good time I suppose....
Dan
------------------------------
From: KA-CHING <MEMKEN@ewu.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 13:47:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Be open-minded!!
We are all in need of a refresher. I am beginning to get thoroughly
Doomed out and think the prospect of new games to edit is a savior. That
doesn't mean I want ROTTen talk on here because aside from the humorous bits
in the game, ROTT kinda sucks. I say change this to "id-editing" to
encompass Doom, Heretic, and Quake (when it comes out). The 15 or so
messages concerning Descent and the fact that it is a tremendously
great way to waste time indicate that a general editing list for 3d games
(for lack of a better term) in general is needed, otherwise we will
eventually be swamped with mail about the other Doom Toos coming out soon.
That doesn't mean you get to flame everybody who posts to the wrong list,
though I think people who like to share with the world the degree of their
stupidity deserve what they bring on themselves. I don't like the idea of
only having an editing newsgroup for the other games as generally only the
inexperienced post there, not to mention a lot of us either don't read
the newsgroups often, or simply don't care about them. There should
definitely be a new mailing list.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
M.E. | Flames may be sent to youhoser@take.off.eh
memken@ewu.edu |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 17:15:08 EST
Subject: Be frito-minded!!
KA-CHING <MEMKEN@ewu.edu> ,in message <01HL6FJ55C6A9X3MFA@ewu.edu>, wrote:
> I say change this to "id-editing" to
> encompass Doom, Heretic, and Quake (when it comes out).
I don't think Quake will have enough similarity to DOOM to warrant
inclusion. I'm sure the guys on the Quake-editing list will not want to hear
about editing that dinosaur of a game DooM.
------------------------------
From: Dopefish <decerman@ouray.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 16:14:44 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Be frito-minded!!
> > I say change this to "id-editing" to
> > encompass Doom, Heretic, and Quake (when it comes out).
>
> I don't think Quake will have enough similarity to DOOM to warrant
> inclusion. I'm sure the guys on the Quake-editing list will not want to hear
> about editing that dinosaur of a game DooM.
Agreed. I think that Heretic (and other very-similar-to-DOOM games) is
appropriate for this list, as long as the discussion pertains to editing.
However, ROTT, Descent, and game reviews can go elsewhere. Either we get
back on topic (DOOM/DOOM II/Heretic editing) or we broaden the scope of
this mailing list. That's my 2 cents.
__ __
____ /\ \ /\ \ Dan Cerman
/ \ \ / \ \ _\ \ \ IRC: PizzaDude, Dopefish o
/ /\ \_\ / /\ \ \ /\_\ \ \ o _/|_
\ \ \ | | \ \/ \_\ \ __ \_\ decerman@ouray.cudenver.edu . / \ /
\ \/ |_| \ /\/_/ \ \ \/_/ OO <| ><|
\ / / \ \_\ \ \_\ "For the water is deep, and UU\___/ \
\/_/ \/_/ \/_/ I have dodged the Dopefish."
------------------------------
From: Hulio494@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 18:33:22 -0500
Subject: DoomCad help please
I have 4 questions about DoomCad2.
#1 How come when I load the Doom2.wad and in lineDef mode look at the action
of a linedef, the action box is all grey. This seems to happen when I click
on an unusual and rare action of a Doom2 linedef (like on Level 30, the line
def for the switch which raises the platform really high). If I remember
right, when I first started using Doomcad2, this never happened. I actually
saw the action for that switch linedef on level 30. It said something like
"raise platform 172 and wait" or something like that.
#2 How come when I use a prefabed polygon sector, and then save the .wad, it
comes up with a bunch of "Partition node not found" or "incorrect" or
something like that? I believe the parent sector's sidedef's are correctly
edited when the polygon is inserted?? What's up? I'd really like to be able
to use this option!
#3 When using the tools for cut and paste and such, It locks up on
"cutting". How can this be remedied?
#4 What is the "Aspect Ratio" option?
Thank you in advance.
P.S. If there is a detailed faq on for DoomCad, please let me know where I
can find it so I won't be asking these dumb questions (I'm still fuzzy on
"Upper and Lower Unpegged Textures") :)
hulio494@aol.com
------------------------------
From: Wade Williams <wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 18:23:44 -0600
Subject: Re: Coordinate problems -Reply
>>> Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu> 12/28/94 03:47pm >>>
Wade Williams <wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us> ,in message
<sf017521.015@langate.tn
et.state.tn.us>, wrote:
> A) What strategies do you use for displaying an image which is far too
> large to fit in an image buffer. Obviously you've got to only display a
> portion at a time, but I'd like to hear how some others have done it.
Uh, it's a time-honored graphics technique called "clipping". The
windowing system doesn't bother drawing stuff that's off screen.
<<<<<<<<<<
Thanks. I realize the question sounded stupid (and I do consider myself a
decent programmer) but I'm just getting started on the graphics stuff.
Luckily for me, the Macintosh offers a sophisticated graphics toolbox, so
while it will be difficult, I'll have a lot of tools from which to choose.
I'll probably have some more basic questions later. :) (And am hitting the
books hard). Thanks for help.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wade Williams "Any escape might help to smooth
Telecommunications Consultant the unattractive truth, but the
State of Tennessee suburbs have no charms to soothe
(615) 741-8678 the restless dreams of youth."
wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us -Neil Peart of Rush
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #102
**********************************
