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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 156
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #156
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Monday, 13 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 156
Re: DCK 2.0
The Enemy...
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: Doom2 Editors (The Best... The Worst...)
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: The Enemy...
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: The Enemy...
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
almost objective editor comparison
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: Coordinate problems -Reply
Re: DCK 2.0
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 17:21 PST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> yeah, DCK is just great except for the fact that its memory management sucks
> (it locks up my P90 system every few minutes)..I must say the editor itself
> is pretty nice though..
>
> ------------------------< Ian Springer (RC '98) >----------------------------
> ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
> ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're using EMM386 or another memory manager, turn it off. If that
fixes the problem, then great!
BTW, this is not something I can do a whole lot about. I didn't realize
when I started the 2.0 conversion that Borland's DOS extender is terrible
for system stability. It's incompatible with everything.
I'm pretty certain the code is solid: I've been testing it for several
months on machines over here, and can run dozens of sessions on one boot -
albeit using only HIMEM.SYS for memory management.
I'd use DOS4G/Watcom but their *graphics* library sucks .. man. I hate
80x86s.
- - Ben
- ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
- -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
------------------------------
From: <jdh15@po.cwru.edu>
Date: 13 Feb 1995 02:24:37 GMT
Subject: The Enemy...
Hi!
Think back many moons, when you first had DOOM I on your
computer. After dusting many an imp and demon, you ran across the
most hideous monster of all... The Baron of Hell. Then, in later
episodes, you ran across the baron's face carved into green marble
in various levels. Then, you saw another face carved into green
marble--it looked like an alien, with tendrils coming from its face
and white eyes and a huge skull. "Oh Shit!" you thought. "What do
I have to fight now?!?" The lesser perhaps whimpered. However,
you never ran across this denizen of hell. Or have you? I think
the portrait (which is wall texture MARBFAC2, by the way) bears a
striking resemblance to the ArchVile. Just wondering what you
thought.
- -j
==============================================================================
I went into the store the other day, to buy myself a loaf of bread.
But when I got there, I couldn't find any, no matter how hard I looked.
So I asked the store manager about it, and he said,
I'm sorry, but we don't carry bread anymore....
==============================================================================
Jeremy Holland Case Western Reserve University
(216) 754-1343 jdh15@po.cwru.edu
Sherman House #316 http://maniac.cwru.edu/~deth/
==============================================================================
------------------------------
From: Joseph Fouche <jfouche@preferred.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 21:29:34 -30000
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
Argh! Edmap is the best editor.... you all should try it!
Finished JSF01.WAD in less than 3.5 hours (yeah, it's small, but it
included a few teleporters and other nice things.)
Edmap 1.31 Rules!
- --jfouche@preferred.com(shell reply, no tagline)
------------------------------
From: allang@cuug.ab.ca (Geoff Allan)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 20:07:01 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Doom2 Editors (The Best... The Worst...)
DoomEd 4.2 is the latest.
I have uploaded it to ftp.cdrom.com and ftp.idsoftware.com
It's pretty darn solid now, and I am working on 5.0
- --
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Replies to allang@cuug.ab.ca |"So I open the door to my enemies, and |
+-------------------------------+ I ask 'could we wipe the slate clean', |
| finger allang@ibm.cuug.ab.ca | But they ask me to please go fuck |
| for a status report on DoomEd | myself, You know you just can't win" |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------Pink Floyd----+
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 19:58 PST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> > BTW, this is not something I can do a whole lot about. I didn't realize
> > when I started the 2.0 conversion that Borland's DOS extender is terrible
> > for system stability. It's incompatible with everything.
>
> Borland *HAS* a DOS extender? Well, I guess I realized it, but...whoah.
> Which version of Borland C do you have? I've still got 3.0, which may
> explain this.
I just got 4.5 a few weeks ago.
> I suppose it must. I must say, though, that I hadn't even realized you
> were using BGI. How did you do so much with such a generic library?
The 32-bit variant of BGI is a diluted version of Metagraphics' MetaWINDOW
package (which is probably the best graphics libs you can get for the PC.)
But, I'm not doing much by way of graphics routines - circles, lines,
squares, etc. I wrote the interface from scratch using the basic BGI
primitives.
> How is Watcom, otherwise?
It's a fantastic compiler: the optimizations outperform Borland's by a
wide margin. Other than recompile-tests, though, I don't have much
experience with it. I do know that its debugger (even the "new wow
exciting" version that comes with 11.0) is pretty terrible compared with
Turbo Debugger (love it.) That and the graphics limits are the reasons I
didn't use it for DCK and don't port the code to it now.
Ttyl,
Ben
- ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
- -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 23:01:35 EST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris) ,in message <m0rdpTN-000L22C@island.amtsgi.b
c.ca>, wrote:
> I'd use DOS4G/Watcom but their *graphics* library sucks .. man. I hate
> 80x86s.
It's not the processor (although you can't do much with an 8086), it's the
OS. Get a real one (such as Linux or SunOS, but not Sloaris).
PFME ran on sparcs after 5 minutes of porting. I expect it would take 1
hour max to port to any other system with Unix/X.
------------------------------
From: DOOM Master <dschwenk@pepperdine.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 20:55:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> yeah, DCK is just great except for the fact that its memory management sucks
> (it locks up my P90 system every few minutes)..I must say the editor itself
> is pretty nice though..
>
>
> ------------------------< Ian Springer (RC '98) >----------------------------
> ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
> ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have also encountered this problem. My P90 has lock ups every few
minutes as well. It can't just be the P90...(unless because it is a fixed
chip. :)
**********************************************************************
* Derek Schwenk | DOOM and iD = saviors of DOS *
* dschwenk@pepvax.pepperdine.edu | "Hell on earth is here. Rejoice!" *
**********************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 21:54:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> I have also encountered this problem. My P90 has lock ups every few
> minutes as well. It can't just be the P90...(unless because it is a fixed
> chip. :)
I hate to say it, but I think it is. =) Works fine on mine, except for
the vidcard detection which is my bastard halfbreed card's fault and the
hosed DPMI which is Borland's fault. It's the Curse of the New Hot
System, striking again.
------------------------------
From: Ian Springer <ips@remus.rutgers.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 2:52:53 EST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> > yeah, DCK is just great except for the fact that its memory management sucks
> > (it locks up my P90 system every few minutes)..I must say the editor itself
> > is pretty nice though..
> >
> > ------------------------< Ian Springer (RC '98) >----------------------------
> > ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
> > ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you're using EMM386 or another memory manager, turn it off. If that
> fixes the problem, then great!
>
> BTW, this is not something I can do a whole lot about. I didn't realize
> when I started the 2.0 conversion that Borland's DOS extender is terrible
> for system stability. It's incompatible with everything.
>
> I'm pretty certain the code is solid: I've been testing it for several
> months on machines over here, and can run dozens of sessions on one boot -
> albeit using only HIMEM.SYS for memory management.
>
> I'd use DOS4G/Watcom but their *graphics* library sucks .. man. I hate
> 80x86s.
>
> - Ben
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
> the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
> and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
> -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
> revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
>
OK, thanx for the help...and, again, very nice editor...keep up the good
work.
- ------------------------< Ian Springer (RC '98) >----------------------------
ips@eden.rutgers.edu (general) ips@remus.rutgers.edu (computer science)
ips@usacs.rutgers.edu (USACS) ips@gandalf.rutgers.edu (honors program)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Bill Bessette <dsquid@li.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 08:21:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: The Enemy...
On 13 Feb 1995 jdh15@po.cwru.edu wrote:
> in various levels. Then, you saw another face carved into green
> marble--it looked like an alien, with tendrils coming from its face
[Snip]
> striking resemblance to the ArchVile. Just wondering what you
> thought.
I think you need to get out more, Jeremy ;)
Truth be told, I don't remember any tendrils on the Archvile.
Other than the bald head, I just don't see it.
Heck I'm going bald, maybe *I'm* the Archvile ;)
Bill
+====================+========================================+
| William Bessette |"The most merciful thing in the world, |
| Systems Analyst | I think, is the inability of the human |
| New York, NY | mind to correlate all its contents." |
+====================+========================================+
| dsquid@li.net | http://www.li.net/~dsquid/sepia.html |
+====================+========================================+
------------------------------
From: Aragorn! <bsc4074@hades.dcs.napier.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:11:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Anthony Spataro wrote:
> > I have also encountered this problem. My P90 has lock ups every few
> > minutes as well. It can't just be the P90...(unless because it is a fixed
> > chip. :)
>
> I hate to say it, but I think it is. =) Works fine on mine, except for
> the vidcard detection which is my bastard halfbreed card's fault and the
> hosed DPMI which is Borland's fault. It's the Curse of the New Hot
> System, striking again.
>
Are you sure that this problem doesn't have anything to do with bugged
Pentiums? Just a thought........
, ,
/( )`
\ \___ / |
/- _ `-/ '
(/\/ \ \ /\
/ / | ` \
O O ) / |
`-^--'`< '
TM (_.) _ ) /
| | |\ | ~|~ \ / `.___/` /
| | | \ | | X `-----' /
`__| | \| _|_ / \ <----. __ / __ \
<----|====O)))==) \) /====
<----' `--' `.__,' \
| |
\ /
______( (_ / \______
,' ,-----' | \
`--{__________) \/
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 11:38:59 EST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
Your .sig is too large.
Aragorn! <bsc4074@hades.dcs.napier.ac.uk> ,in message <Pine.SUN.3.90.9502131310
21.21911B-100000@psyche>, wrote:
> , ,
> /( )`
> \ \___ / |
> /- _ `-/ '
> (/\/ \ \ /\
> / / | ` \
> O O ) / |
> `-^--'`< '
> TM (_.) _ ) /
> | | |\ | ~|~ \ / `.___/` /
> | | | \ | | X `-----' /
> `__| | \| _|_ / \ <----. __ / __ \
> <----|====O)))==) \) /====
> <----' `--' `.__,' \
> | |
> \ /
> ______( (_ / \______
> ,' ,-----' | \
> `--{__________) \/
>
>
------------------------------
From: thekid@ornews.intel.com (Brian Kidby)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 08:46:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: The Enemy...
> in various levels. Then, you saw another face carved into green
> marble--it looked like an alien, with tendrils coming from its face
> and white eyes and a huge skull. "Oh Shit!" you thought. "What do
> I have to fight now?!?" The lesser perhaps whimpered. However,
> you never ran across this denizen of hell. Or have you? I think
> the portrait (which is wall texture MARBFAC2, by the way) bears a
> striking resemblance to the ArchVile. Just wondering what you
> thought.
>
> -j
I made that same connection when I saw the first magazine pix of the
ArchVile, and I sent help@idsoftware a question about it, asking if
we've seen the ArchVile's face anywhere in Doom I. American replied
negative, but I still wonder about it...
Curiouser and curiouser...
Brian K.
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kid My thoughts and actions are strictly my own.
thekid@ornews.intel.com Do not hold my employers responsible.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Ken Tittle <kenti@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 10:32:35 TZ
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
| Are you sure that this problem doesn't have anything to do with
| bugged Pentiums? Just a thought........
I'm running DCK 2.0 on a Pentium 60 with 32Mb Ram and having no
problems except for slow startup time ( Must be my EMM386 )... If I run
it under Windows 3.11, this solves the startup time.
- -= Ken =-
------------------------------
From: "Hurricane/ -=[ Woo woo!! ]=-" <bhume@is.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:40:10 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Aragorn! wrote:
> Are you sure that this problem doesn't have anything to do with bugged
> Pentiums? Just a thought........
No...the "Pentium bug" only causes mathematical errors in certain floating
point divisions. It doesn't cause crashes or system faults, merely a
wrong answer. And _I_ certainly wouldn't use any software that based
system-critical calculations on floating point operations, which are
approximations in themselves.
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 10:40 PST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris) ,in message <m0rdpTN-000L22C@island.amtsgi.b
> c.ca>, wrote:
>
> > I'd use DOS4G/Watcom but their *graphics* library sucks .. man. I hate
> > 80x86s.
>
> It's not the processor (although you can't do much with an 8086), it's the
> OS. Get a real one (such as Linux or SunOS, but not Sloaris).
Of course you're right; I'm so used to DOS being the only OS for my
personal development goals (sounds like some new age thang, doesn't it :)
I realize there are much more interesting and manageable OSes out there,
but for most of my projects it's just not realistic - especially for DCK,
whose prime target is the 90% of DOOMers who are DOS/Windows users.
So i have to stick with the kludges that the knowitall software companies
come out with.
- - Ben
- ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
- -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:15:02 EST
Subject: almost objective editor comparison
You've seen cheesy little comparison charts in the trade rags. Let's make
one for mission editors.
Here's my entry. If you can add any categories you feel relevant or
distinguishing, feel free. User evaluations are welcome.
PFME (Your editor here)
Full edit
capability Y
multi-object
selections Y
Prefab
operations 1
Freeform
sector N
draw
Multi-view Y
Multi-mission Y
Cut&paste Y
Undo/Redo N
Built-in NODES
builder 0%
Built-in BLOCKMAP
builder N
Built-in REJECT
builder N
Game
support D2H
Supported Linux/SunOS
platforms X11R5
Cost $0
Notes:
Full edit capability: The editor allows the user to completely
control every value in the resources THINGS, VERTEXES, LINEDEFS,
SIDEDEFS, and SECTORS. It is not required to be able edit the SEGS,
SSECTORS, NODES, BLOCKMAP, or REJECT resources.
Multi-object selections: The editor supports operations upon multiple
objects of the same type (thing/vertex/etc.).
Prefab operations: A rough count of how many "prefab" operations the
editor supports. Prefab operations include "make door from sector",
"make lift from sector", "insert polygon", "arrange stairs". These
operations must actually work in game terms.
Freeform sector draw: The ability to draw a genus 1 object with a
series of clicks and have the editor build a sector with the necessary
sidedefs, linedefs, and vertices.
Multi-view: The editor can maintain several views of the same
mission with changes to the mission being displayed in all views in a
timely manner.
Multi-mission: The editor can edit and view several missions at
the same time.
Cut&paste: The editor can copy entities of any sort (sector,
sidedef, linedef, vertex) of the mission from one place to another.
If there is no way to place both sectors and things in the cur buffer
for pasting, then the editor only scores 1/2. If the editor can
cut&paste between different missions in memory, then score 2!
(fractional scores for limited cut&paste ability are permitted).
Undo/Redo: The editor has the ability to back out of changes or
redo them (travel both directions through the undo history). Editors
with only Undo score 50%. Editors that can not Undo in all cases
score less than 50% (depending on how often during editing the typical
user performs an indelible act).
built-in NODES builder: The editor can generate the NODES, SEGS,
and SSECTORS resources when writing a mission to disk. This is a
percentage score which is an estimate of how solid your code is.
Occasional fuck-ups rate a 95%.
built-in BLOCKMAP builder: The editor can generate the BLOCKMAP
resource when writing a mission to disk. This is a boolean. Either
your code is correct or you're a bonehead.
built-in REJECT builder: The editor can generate the REJECT
resource when writing a mission to disk. This is a percentage score
based on speed and accuracy of the algorithm.
(10) Game support: Does the game support Doom I, Doom II,
and/or Heretic?
------------------------------
From: "jeffery galinovsky - EUCD" <jgalinov@pcocd2.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 11:07:29 -0800
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
On Feb 13, 1:11pm, Aragorn! wrote:
> Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Anthony Spataro wrote:
>
> > > I have also encountered this problem. My P90 has lock ups every few
> > > minutes as well. It can't just be the P90...(unless because it is a
fixed
> > > chip. :)
> >
> > I hate to say it, but I think it is. =) Works fine on mine, except for
> > the vidcard detection which is my bastard halfbreed card's fault and the
> > hosed DPMI which is Borland's fault. It's the Curse of the New Hot
> > System, striking again.
> >
> Are you sure that this problem doesn't have anything to do with bugged
> Pentiums? Just a thought........
Sorry, but the Pentium bug would have nothing to do with your system locking
up. The Pentium bug is only a very rare accuracy issue with very specific
Floating point divides.
Is there something specific that you do when it locks up or does it just
all of a sudden lock. It could be something in the code...probably memeory
management that is causing it. Could you be more specific on what causes
the lock up?
- -Jeff
- --
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Jeffery R. Galinovsky | These are my views and not |
| | those of my employer! |
| jgalinov@pcocd2.intel.com | |
| Jeffery_R_Galinovsky@ccm.fm.intel.com | 8^) |
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
------------------------------
From: Wade Williams <wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:19:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Coordinate problems -Reply
>>>>>>
Hmm, this is old as hell now, but I'll donate any of my advice if you want
it. Actually, I have a friend who was thinking about doing a Doom editor
for the mac as well, since he's got a mac. Actually, he was going to
port my editor (DMapEdit) to the mac. He's been pretty busy lately,
though, and I dunno if he's even still interested. Anyway, I've done
just about everything when it comes to code for a Doom map editor, so ask
away if you have any questions about anything. Later..
<<<<<<
I've kind of put mine on hold too while I work on a Marathon Editor (since
that product is shipping). Once I finish it, I'll go back to the DOOM
editor and probably have lots of questions. Thanks for the offer.
Wade
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wade Williams "Any escape might help to smooth
Telecommunications Consultant the unattractive truth, but the
State of Tennessee suburbs have no charms to soothe
(615) 741-8678 the restless dreams of youth."
wwilliams@mail.state.tn.us -Neil Peart of Rush
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: kjqiu@eng2.uconn.edu (Kejian Qiu)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 17:18:27 EST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> From doom-editing-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 13 16:39:47 1995
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:11:06 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Aragorn! <bsc4074@hades.dcs.napier.ac.uk>
> X-Sender: bsc4074@psyche
> To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
> Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII>
> Sender: owner-doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
> Reply-To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
> Content-Length: 1444
>
> On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Anthony Spataro wrote:
>
> > > I have also encountered this problem. My P90 has lock ups every few
> > > minutes as well. It can't just be the P90...(unless because it is a fixed
> > > chip. :)
> >
> > I hate to say it, but I think it is. =) Works fine on mine, except for
> > the vidcard detection which is my bastard halfbreed card's fault and the
> > hosed DPMI which is Borland's fault. It's the Curse of the New Hot
> > System, striking again.
> >
> Are you sure that this problem doesn't have anything to do with bugged
> Pentiums? Just a thought........
>
My P90 has no bug (I have checked with several short programs specially for
that), but every time I quit from DCK 2.0, the system reboot. Any help will
be appreciated.
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #156
**********************************
