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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 165
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #165
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Saturday, 18 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 165
RE: no more visplanes
Doom Editing Answer
Whoops!!!!
mistake in UDS
Re: DEU 5.3 Beta
Re: Doom editing question
Re: This Is Getting Stupid Folks.....
Re: Doom editing question (oops...)
id-ea
Re: DEU 5.3 Beta
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 17:20:25 +0100
Subject: RE: no more visplanes
> From what I know, visplanes are x-y parallel planes, so not lines, but
> floor/ceiling areas in view. Each sector, I think, that has a visible
> floor and/or ceiling will require it's own visplane. So, you basically
> have too many sectors in view.
Methinks that *if* DOOM renders all floors after all opaque walls
have been done front-to-back, but prior to painting partly transparent walls
and sprites back-to-front, they might use some kind of lookup table
of "gaps" (or "posts already drawn") for each *horizontal* line (including
projections etc. calculated for the lower/upper edge of the wall,
and other stuff needed for texture mapping the floor in horizontal
stripes once the walls are finished).
We had a similar thread a while ago, and somebody mentioned that this error
is as well related to raising stairs, and to pillars "splitting" a line into
two from a certain point of view. If a renderer is drawing vertical
columns of walls, it splits horizontal scanlines. If an array of fixed
size is used for each horizontal line, too many splits in one single
scanline would be sufficient to corrupt the frame.
Comments anybody?
B.
------------------------------
From: asre@uiuc.edu (Scott Coleman)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 10:42:52 -0600
Subject: Doom Editing Answer
Andrew Dowswell <Dowswea@AA.WL.COM> asked:
>Subject: Doom editing question
>
>I am just finishing a wad now. The flow of the level is fairly sequential
>due to different teleporters becoming available after certain actions are
>taken. My question involves how to make this a suitable wad for
>deathmatch.
First off, it's usually pretty tough to make a single level that is good for
BOTH single player *and* DEATHMATCH - the design features which make a level
great for one tend to make it suck for the other. The sequential teleporters
you mention are a perfect example.
>My dm experience is extremely limited, but I don't expect that
>people would be willing to run through the level to "open it up" before
>really getting into the dm play.
I would agree with this - any "opening up" should be minimal and as close to
automatic as possible - players shouldn't have to figure out any puzzles in
order to get into the room where the other 3 players are having a chainsaw
joust.
>I would like some thoughts on an idea I had: Having dm starts spread
>around the level that are "one-way" rooms (you can get out but not back in)
>that would have a set of switches, or even line triggers between you and the
>door, that would take care of making all of the teleporters available
>immediately. This would also allow players to restart in an enclosed
>hidden area with weapons, armor, and whatever other goodies readily
>available. Does this sound reasonable?
This is an excellent idea, especially if you use linedef triggers. I have
used this technique successfully in a couple of my own levels to start
"random lifts" moving. Rather than have 1 linedef trigger to start all the
lifts simultaneously, I spread the linedefs throughout the level. To insure
that the linedefs will be triggered, I placed them across narrow passageways
with the DM starts immediately behind the lift trigger linedefs and a weapon
in front - when the player appears and crosses the line to get the weapon a
lift is triggered.
>Any additional hints to make sure that it would be playable as a dm level?
>Any hints for a fair distribution of weapons, armor, and health in the start
>rooms so that everyone starts nearly level, but still have a number of
>different weapons available?
There are different schools of thought as to what makes the best DEATHMATCH
level. My personal philosophy includes the following points:
* Everyone starts off with something more than a pistol. A shotgun
or a berzerker box are at least somewhat useful. Don't start people off with
something too powerful - a shotgun or chaingun should be the absolute
highest starting weapon. This is perhaps the biggest complaint about MAP01
in DOOM II - whoever starts out in the little ledge with the rocket, super
shotgun and BFG has too much of an advantage over the guy who gets the
chaingun or the other two guys who get nothing.
* The more powerful a weapon is, the more difficult it should be to
get. A commonly used technique is to place a rocket launcher or plasma gun
on top of a pillar in a large open area and make the player lower a lift,
wait for it to come down, and wait again while riding it up, all the while
they are vulnerable to someone else coming along and blasting them.
* No secrets. All items should be in plain sight and it should be
apparent how to get to them (note I said "apparent," not "easy"). Nothing
sucks more than having someone who knows the WAD better than you do go grab
the hidden invulnerability sphere and frag you repeatedly while you're still
looking for your first weapon (which you can't find because it's hidden away
in a dark room somewhere).
* NO BFG, or at least control the appearance of the BFG by
difficulty level (i.e. BFG only appears on skill 1). Some might apply this
reasoning to the plasma gun, also. A good compromise might be BFG and plasma
appear on skill 1+2, plasma only on skill 3, and neither on skill 4+.
If you like, send me your WAD and I'll give you more specific comments on
how to make it more DEATHMATCHable.
- ---
Scott Coleman, President ASRE (American Society of Reverse Engineers)
asre@uiuc.edu
Life is temporally limited - drive velocitously!
------------------------------
From: gene.homan@merlins-realm.com (Gene Homan)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:11:59 GMT
Subject: Whoops!!!!
In my last message I said something about Dark Forces sptting out some
killer deathmatches. Boy is my face red (it is, trust me). I'm sure we
all know that Lucas Arts once again neglected to recognize the wide
following of multiplayer games and designed DF without modem or network
support.
Anywayze, I recognized my err as soon as I sent the damn message and
felt I needed to purge my self in public (now that sounds remotely
obscene doesn't it?) before some wise cracker let me have it at short
range.
Therefore, to recant, has anyone looked seriously into the various GOB
structures of Dark Forces (at least those present in the demo)? The hot
looking engine of this thing looks like it could SPIT OUT SOME KILLER
USER DESIGNED SINGLE PLAYER LEVELS 8)!
Later......
Gene Homan
gene.homan@merlins-realm.com
Author of (correction: soon to be released) Kingdom Come WAD
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:03:14 EST
Subject: mistake in UDS
A long while back one of the testers for the PFME mentioned that one of the
linedef descriptions was out of whack. I lost the mail, and I'm trying to
find this person so they can remind me and also clue in Matt Fell since all
my descriptions are verbatim from the UDS.
I'm still looking for alpha testers for the PFME. If you have Linux, X and
Linuxdoom, you want the PFME. Multiple missions, Multiple views, Cut&paste,
Undo/Redo, vaguely simlar to DEU. Plenty of room for improvement. Give it a
try and complain to me (or flame me on doom-editing; either way, I learn how
to improve it).
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 13:23:01 CST
Subject: Re: DEU 5.3 Beta
>> Remeber the 'transparent doors' - that involved things that were
>> obviously completely wrong and that would most likely crash DooM, and so
>> no sensible editor would let you do them... Except they worked.
>>
>What transparent doors? What did they do?
Check out my deathmatch SPCHAUNT.WAD on ftp.cdrom.com which
makes liberal use of the transparent door technique. Transparent doors act
like normal doors yet one can see through them. And transparent doors
will not pass a "closed sector" consistency check, nor a "missing texture"
check.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: wdwhitak@grissom.jpl.nasa.gov (William D. Whitaker)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 12:13:32 PST
Subject: Re: Doom editing question
Andrew Dowswell <Dowswea@AA.WL.COMI writes
> [SNIP!]
>
> I am just finishing a wad now. The flow of the level is fairly sequential
> due to different teleporters becoming available after certain actions are
> taken. My question involves how to make this a suitable wad for
> deathmatch. My dm experience is extremely limited, but I don't expect that
> people would be willing to run through the level to "open it up" before
> really getting into the dm play.
This is true for the most part; Most players will avoid the outta-the-way
places unless you provide motivation in the form of weapons/ammo/health/items,
or force them there by deathmatch starts.
These have drawbacks for your type of level:
weapons/ammo/health/items as a lure: This can be very distracting, it rewards
people for camping by the door/teleport till SOMEONE ELSE opens it.
And usally, the guy that spends the time opening the doors, usally
just gets fragged for his efforts. >:^)
deathmatch starts: This approach usally sucks for levels of the type you
describe. It forces some people far away from the main play areas,
or worse, it makes some players unreachable, with out lotsa work.
If mixed w/above, it allows hording of big items by a few, based on
luck.
> I would like some thoughts on an idea I
> had: Having dm starts spread around the level that are "one-way" rooms
> (you can get out but not back in) that would have a set of switches, or
> even line triggers between you and the door, that would take care of making
> all of the teleporters available immediately.
This is a good solution: I would dump the switches (since you WANT the
trigger for deathmatch play) in favor of the walk-across LineDef, If you
dont want the "entry-room", just place the DM starts on top of a pedestle,
or in a recess in a wall that is unreachable via single player/coop mode.
of course, line the start w/ walk-across trigger type, for all DM starts.
although often confusing in single player/coop, if you have a key-color
left over, place a "bypass" doors connecting the various areas, using the
extra key-color. dont place the key on the level for any difficulty level.
since you start w/all keys in DM, this makes these doors for use in DM only.
> This would also allow
> players
> to restart in an enclosed hidden area with weapons, armor, and whatever
> other goodies readily available.
I like the Idea of entry rooms, esp with weapons avaliable right away, for a
couple reasons:
1) every player starts with a small assortment of weapons (chainsaw, shotgun,
maybe more(?)) so everyone starts even, with fun weapons (chainsaw is a
must!)
2) The luck of the draw is somewhat taken away, and someone cant just wait
around the DM spot waiting for the easy pistol frag.
Still, make'em earn the big goodies.
> Does this sound reasonable? Any
> additional
> hints to make sure that it would be playable as a dm level?
This is the 64 billion dollar question. I wish there were more postings
on this list about what it takes to create/edit a top-notch DM level, since
people have verify specific preferences about what they like in a DM level.
And often tactics that make for an awesome single player WAD, make for a
sucky DM WAD.
For me, I believe the key to making the best DM wads is finding out the
reasons people like Ledges, E1M5, E1M1, MAP05, etc and dislike others: THEN
apply your creativity to those ideals. (If anyone gots comments on these
levels, email me, I'll compile a list: we'll all get better DM levels >:^)
> Any hints for
> a
> fair distribution of weapons, armor, and health in the start rooms so that
> everyone starts nearly level, but still have a number of different weapons
> available? Like maybe:
If you use the "entry room" idea be careful what stuff you put in it.
you dont want someone comming back too strong (ie: loaded backpack), I for
one would only include the small weapons max, no ammo or items. And I force
the player to exit the room (area) to get the weapons: so if respawn is on,
they have to exit to get them, so they dont load-up before entering the
playing field.
Notice that health and green armor are useless here, cuz players start at
100% anyway. Starting everyone even is the key (nobody starts in a treasure
room with invul, inviso, backpack, BFG :) but restarting fairly is also
a major goal: restarting in the middle of the main battle area w/pistol
sucks, likewise restarting a player 10times stronger then everyone else is
unfair to those that can stay alive.
>
> shotgun and megasphere
> chaingun and blue armor
> plasma gun and green armor
> rocket launcher only
> ??? ??? ???
remember with respawn (altdeath), large/powerfull items: megasphere, blue armor,
backpacks, large ammo boxes, 25% health, and large stash rooms are typically
not a good idea.
> obEditor_Flamebait_Bullshit_Remark : Personally I use DCK 2.0, DEU 5.21,
> and Edmap 1.31 (for the variety of features each has) and I think that
> anyone that uses *only one* editor is a complete and total idiot that
> should
> be forced to use an enhanced version of edlin. :^)
>
> Andy (Dowswea@aa.wl.com)
-Bill
------------------------------
From: David Damerell <djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 23:41:18 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: This Is Getting Stupid Folks.....
On Fri, 17 Feb 1995, Gene Homan wrote:
> All right already. Everyone has a favorite editor. Each one has its
> strengths and its failings (or shortcomings anywayze). That's life
> folks! We wouldn't be human if we didn't have opinions. But daggumit
> (trust me, it's a word - I'M SOUTHERN BY GAWD!)
So am I - albeit a different Southern - and I never heard it. :-)
>, use the one you like
> (or a combination) and get on with the damned WADding! This low
> shooting over which one is "superior" is immature at best and stupid by
> far.
I've been trying - usually unsuccessfully, not the least because of my
own urge to flame sometimes - to keep the discussion down to one on what
editors should provide...
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Trinity, Cambridge
WOODHAL2.WAD ftpable. CUWoCS President. METLMAZE.WAD sometime soonish.
|___| Loneliness pours over you: Emptiness can pull you through. |___|
| | | Your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me... Queen, '39. | | |
------------------------------
From: wdwhitak@grissom.jpl.nasa.gov (William D. Whitaker)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 15:57:36 PST
Subject: Re: Doom editing question (oops...)
I wrote:
> Notice that health and green armor are useless here, cuz players start at
> 100% anyway. Starting everyone even is the key (nobody starts in a treasure
I mean:
Notice that health (except vials) is useless at the start, cuz players start at
100% anyway. Starting everyone even is the key (nobody starts in a treasure
I mailed the old copy. D'oh!
-Bill
------------------------------
From: hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca (Enigma)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:31:01 -0800
Subject: id-ea
I was thinking back to how much fun I had playing the orginal DOOM maps,
when I though -- why doesn't id make more levels? Sure, they've had DOOM II
and Heretic, but they've not yet released a simple level pack. Something to
continue the saga left off in DOOM I. I believe the levels they designed for
DOOM I were the best deathmatch levels ever made: they all had such meaning;
bringing back memories of the 1-1 to 3-9 25 hour personal assault. Playing
level 2-2 in a deathmatch setting was so cool: it was like revisiting an old
adventure with a friend. Oh well, that's my philosophical opinion.
Please, if you have any flames or useless comments to air, air them to me
personally and NOT to the list. This is just a suggestion: I am not
responsible for my own dire stupidity and ignorance. TTUL
***************************************************************************
enigma <hsimpson@unixg.ubc.ca>
***************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: David Damerell <djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 00:38:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: DEU 5.3 Beta
On Fri, 17 Feb 1995, Steve McCrea wrote:
> David Damerell wrote:
> > There's a lot of things that ppl thought we'd never need to do (this
> > makes the .WAD smaller) - if ppl had thought we'd never need missing
> > textures, the goop trench in trinity2.wad would have been impossible.
> And then I might not have put that crap bit in. Don't bring my wad into
> your side of the argument, David. I like the new editors.
I was only using it as an example.
> > [the 640x480 mode of DCK]
> > It looks kinda - crudgy? In all seriousness, I do think there is a
> > problem, perhaps because of the large and IMHO ugly font used for
> > onscreen text.
> So run it in 800x600 or 1024x768. I don't see the "crudgyness" anyway.
I can run DEU in those modes and it's crisper again...
> The floor/ceiling thing can be toggled off for those brought up on DEU,
> and for finishing touches. As for the linedefs, there is no possible
> use for having them the other way round... Flamebait if ever I wrote it!
> > Remeber the 'transparent doors' - that involved things that were
> > obviously completely wrong and that would most likely crash DooM, and so
> > no sensible editor would let you do them... Except they worked.
> What transparent doors? What did they do?
Some guy on DooM-editing did a transparent door (MIDGRATE) by doing
something that there was 'no possible use for.'
> > > - "Run DOOM from editor"
> > That will clash with the use of an external node builder. I'd rather have
> > a batch file, thanks.
> Might as well have the option, surely?
... I'd never use it - it's a useless feature - it doesn't do any harm,
but it doesn't do any good either.
> A matter of taste, then. I find the graphics cute- when I want to deal with
> things, I'll be zoomed in 99% of the time.
Most of this is a matter of taste///
> > > - Multi-texture viewer
> > An advantage?
> Yup. How can you deny it? DMapEdit's is better than DCK's.
What good is it? I can see lots of textures at once - big deal.
> > > DCK, Edmap AND DME:
> > > - Automated stairs
> > Should be fixed in 5.3 - and DEU5.21 has 'semiautomatic stairs.'
> Say what?
Split the sector repeatedly then distribute floor heights. New in 5.2,
and stairs were a bitch in 5.1 - hence 'semiautomatic.'
> > > - Complete grid control (not just "G" "G" "G" "G" "G")
> > Erm, it's factors of 2 in DCK at least, innit?
> Yes, but to go to 256 from 128, you press one button, once. You don't have to
> wait for the 64, 32, 16, 8, 512, refreshes, which can take some time...
Not IME, but fair enough.
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Trinity, Cambridge
WOODHAL2.WAD ftpable. CUWoCS President. METLMAZE.WAD sometime soonish.
|___| Loneliness pours over you: Emptiness can pull you through. |___|
| | | Your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me... Queen, '39. | | |
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #165
**********************************
