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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 111
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #111
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Saturday, 7 January 1995 Volume 01 : Number 111
Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Re: Heretic Lines
Re: ftp.idsoftware.com /id POLAR.ZIP ???
Re:
What is on-topic on this mailing list
Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
POLAR.ZIP
FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Re: death to GIF
Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Re: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Re: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
RE: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Re: Why not use JPEG?
WinDEU 32
Re: WinDEU 32
RE: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: eedraq@chapelle.eed.ericsson.se (Raphael Quinet)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 17:33:34 +0100
Subject: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Hello everybody!
I have some bad news. On Dec 29th, 1994, Compu$erve who owns the patent
for the GIF format has decided that from now on, all programs that use
this image format must acquire a license from them. Programmers who want
to obtain this license will have to pay royalties which amount to 1.5
percent of the price or $0.15 for each copy of the program, whichever is
the _greater_.
This effectively kills all freeware and most shareware programs using the
GIF format and the LZW technology for image compression!
For more information about this, you can read the following newsgroups:
comp.graphics
comp.infosystems.www.users
comp.infosystems.www.providers
If you have a WWW browser, you can get some information about the license
directly from Compu$erve:
http://www.compuserve.com/isd/news_rel/gif.html
There is also some interesting comments about this and a discussion about
the consequences for programmers on:
http://www.digital.com/gnn/meta/imedia/news/gif.html
What does this mean for us? That's simple: we cannot use the GIF format in
any freeware Doom editor (maybe some shareware authors could afford to pay
the royalties).
David Kaplan helped me with some LZW code for DEU 5.3, in order to be able
to read GIF files directly for the wall textures, monsters,... Olivier
Montanuy also helped me with his source code from DeuTex. I'm afraid that
all this hard work is lost. I will probably not release DEU with GIF
support. I will have to use another format instead (PPM, which has no
patent, and BMP but I'm not sure about its status). I'm still hoping that
people at Compu$erve will change their mind, but... :-(
I just learnt that information today and this is quite a shock...
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: "Jason Hoffoss" <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 95 21:58:26 CST
Subject: Re: Heretic Lines
On Wed, 4 Jan 95 18:48 PST,
Ben Morris <bmorris@islandnet.com> wrote:
>So I was looking through a Heretic map the other day, trying to prep DCK
>2.0 for working with the game (which is a more difficult task than I
>originally imagined, what with the different palette and my relying on the
>DOOM palette for the 256-color interface.. sigh ! :).. anyway, I happened
>to notice that hardly *any* of the lines are marked impassable. Does
>heretic automatically assume a one-sided line impassable and disallow
>travel across it? Inquiring minds want to know..
>
>- Ben
>
>(The heck with it .. 2.1 will have Heretic support :)
I would assume so, since the Doom engine does this. You don't have to set
the impassible flag for lines in Doom, but that's usually what's done
anyway.
-Jason
------------------------------
From: Matt Ayres <ayres@cdrom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 18:24:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: ftp.idsoftware.com /id POLAR.ZIP ???
On Thu, 5 Jan 1995, Dean Johnson wrote:
>
> > > Maybe they're considering releasing the engine source code... In our
> > > dreams!! =) =)
> >
> > Sure would be nice!
>
> Seriously, has anyone looked at the 3rd party doomproj.zip source code
> that was mentioned here last month? I haven't been find a copy.
There is a public program someone is writing by the name of "wt" that
works similiar to the doom engine. It has been ported to numerous os's,
but I don't think he intends on writing a full game out of it... yet?
it's avialable via ftp, magoo.uwsuper.edu/pub/wt I don't know anymore
more about it, other than I've tried it and it works to some degree in
DOS. The version I tried doesn't do clipping, yet I believe I've seen
an add-on for clipping. All source is available too.
-Matt A.
------------------------------
From: "Jason Hoffoss" <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 95 21:59:18 CST
Subject: Re:
On Tue, 3 Jan 95 17:22:33 CST,
trm2000@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu <trm2000@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
> In response to Ben Morris' asking WHY I want to make another nodes-
>builder:
> Just for the hell of it. I am just now starting to understand how
>the doom wad works in terms of the nodes structures and what is actually seen
>I think that it is pretty interesting so I just wanna know how it works.
> So let me ask my question again: I understand that you have to fork
>the node on a 2 sided linedef but why does this make 4 children instead of 2?
>How does the bsp tree work and why is it a tree and not just a fork at a
>2-sided linedef?
I think one of us is lost here. Forks with a 2 sided line? If by fork
you mean 2 children are created, then yes. The nodeline is extended to
infinity in both directions, and all sidedefs on one side is put into one
of the child lists, and all sidedefs on the other side is put into the
other. If your nodeline is a 2 sided line, you will put one of the
nodeline's sidedefs in one child, and the other in the other child. If
when you extend your nodeline you find that it crosses another line, you
need to split that line into 2 lines, putting each half in it's respective
child. It's this line splitting that that can create 4 sidedefs from a
single line. With this nodeline, though, you still only have 2 childred
for it. The sum of both your childred will be bigger than your original
list now. You don't just 'fork' a 2 sided line. You fork all lines that
you use as a nodeline. If it's only 1 sided, then that one sidedef will
go into whichever child it belongs in. That help a little?
Also, about ssector checking that Matt Ayres mentioned, there is an
another way to do it, which I use. I think my node builder might be the
only one that uses it, though. Instead of checking all these conditions,
just look for your best nodeline. If you can't find any lines in your
list that has sidedefs on both sides of your nodeline, then it's a convex
polygon. I have no idea really if this would be faster or not, though.
If your list forms a convex polygon, you don't need to bother looking for
a nodeline, so I waste time doing this in such cases. However, in all
other cases, other editors waste time checking if a convex polygon exists
first, and that wastes some time. So, overall, I think my way might be a
little faster with larger trees. Also, the node generating routine didn't
seem as bad to me. Generating sectors was the real nasty one to write..
:) Of course, I have a slight problem still with my node generator that I
can't figure out. Trying to debug code that's screws up after several
hundred iterations of a loop can be tricky.
-Jason
------------------------------
From: Tom.Holmes%224@satlink.oau.org (Tom Holmes)
Date: 05 Jan 95 20:11:11 -0500
Subject: What is on-topic on this mailing list
> In so much as I agree with the ID portions of your list, I disagree
> with the rest. Below is the relevant (sp?) section of the nice e-mail
> letter I recived when I subscribed to this list.
When did you receive this e-mail? If it's being sent out automatically by the
list server, I need to know. The message you referenced was created by Joost
Shoor (sp), the originator and former administrator of the list. Since taking
over those duties, I have said on several occasions that discussion of Quake
and/or other id products which are based on or build upon the DooM model are
permitted. My latest message, the one to which you were responding, indicates
my willingness to open the list to limited discussion of non-id products which
have relevance to the editing elite. If I receive enough messages objecting to
this policy, I will swiftly rescind it. We don't stand on formality here, and
I don't intend to impose my will upon the participants. When the preponderance
of mail here drifts to the subject of Quake, some brave fool can then form a
Quake mailing list and we can all go there to play.
- --
|Fidonet: Tom Holmes 1:363/224
|Internet: Tom.Holmes%224@satlink.oau.org
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
| From C.F.Satlink +1-407-240-7781 (ANSI or Vt-100 _required_).
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 12:58:10 EST
Subject: Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
eedraq@chapelle.eed.ericsson.se (Raphael Quinet) ,in message <9501061633.AA2807
4@chapelle.ericsson.se>, wrote:
> What does this mean for us? That's simple: we cannot use the GIF format in
> any freeware Doom editor (maybe some shareware authors could afford to pay
> the royalties).
I heard it yesterday. Then I performed some experiments. I considered
using GNU zipped portable pixmaps. The results were unimpressive. However,
switching to a colormapped format such as sun raster (GIFS are 8-bit
colormapped) yielded better results. In most cases a gnu zipped sun raster
is a little smaller than the corresponding GIF (anywhere from 0.1% to 10%
smaller). gzip -9 (maximal) could add another 1 or 2%.
If other people are interested I am willing to help develop code for a new
format. This would include a GLGPL library for reading and writing images
and a pair of GGPL utilities to convert to and from PPM.
I say fuck GIF. And Compuserv, "Now you shall pay for your lack of vision".
------------------------------
From: John Romero <johnr@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 12:17:42 -0600
Subject: POLAR.ZIP
The POLAR.ZIP file that WAS on our ftp site was an encrypted ZIP of DOOM2 for
some friends stationed at the South Pole who cannot possibly walk out and buy
DOOM2. It was a gift.
John Romero
id Software, inc.
------------------------------
From: Ken Tittle <kenti@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 10:47:16 +0100
Subject: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Why not use JPEG? What needs to happen is a group of people getting
together and make another standard... This would kill Compu$erve's arrogance.
- -= Ken =-
- ----------
From: Raphael Quinet <eedraq@chapelle.eed.ericsson.se>
To: <doom-editing@nvg.unit.no>
Subject: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Date: Friday, January 06, 1995 5:33PM
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Precedence: bulk
Hello everybody!
I have some bad news. On Dec 29th, 1994, Compu$erve who owns the patent
for the GIF format has decided that from now on, all programs that use
this image format must acquire a license from them. Programmers who want
to obtain this license will have to pay royalties which amount to 1.5
percent of the price or $0.15 for each copy of the program, whichever is
the _greater_.
This effectively kills all freeware and most shareware programs using the
GIF format and the LZW technology for image compression!
For more information about this, you can read the following newsgroups:
comp.graphics
comp.infosystems.www.users
comp.infosystems.www.providers
If you have a WWW browser, you can get some information about the license
directly from Compu$erve:
http://www.compuserve.com/isd/news_rel/gif.html
There is also some interesting comments about this and a discussion about
the consequences for programmers on:
http://www.digital.com/gnn/meta/imedia/news/gif.html
What does this mean for us? That's simple: we cannot use the GIF format in
any freeware Doom editor (maybe some shareware authors could afford to pay
the royalties).
David Kaplan helped me with some LZW code for DEU 5.3, in order to be able
to read GIF files directly for the wall textures, monsters,... Olivier
Montanuy also helped me with his source code from DeuTex. I'm afraid that
all this hard work is lost. I will probably not release DEU with GIF
support. I will have to use another format instead (PPM, which has no
patent, and BMP but I'm not sure about its status). I'm still hoping that
people at Compu$erve will change their mind, but... :-(
I just learnt that information today and this is quite a shock...
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 14:02:36 EST
Subject: Re: death to GIF
Jean-loup Gailly <jloup@chorus.fr> ,in message <199501061845.AA09875@chorus.cho
rus.fr>, wrote:
> > I have performed a few experiments with gnu zipping SUN rasters and
> > the results are encouraging.
>
> Remember that GIF uses a color palette. A replacement for GIF must also have
> this ability.
Yes. The Portable PixMap's compression sucked probably because it was NOT
color mapped.
The Sun Raster format is very general, but I'm focusing on the 8-bit
color-mapped specification. My experiments were targeted at this format and
it seems to be a good choice. I can give you the extensive results as soon
as I get back to my home Linux box.
> Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> has tried compressing the
> palette indices with gzip instead of LZW and this gives better
> compression. (He has compared .gif with .tga.gz).
>
> Thomas Boutell <boutell@netcom.com> is also working on a replacement
> of GIF using gzip. I suggest that you contact both Tom's if you
> have suggestions, instead of working on your own.
Well, here's my thoughts. Sun Raster has been around for a while. There
are converters to and from it in the PNM package, and probably in other
packages. That's a few points in its favor.
However, I don't believe its 8-bit colormapped format has hooks for
transparency. I personally believe that the best way to go is to take a
simple non-compressed format that duplicates the functionality of GIF and
just gzip it. You add on a library of routines to load these into a number
of convenient in-memory formats and BINGO, GIF is dead.
Inventing a new format is "bad" but if there's nothing else as capable,
then invent away. Just make it trivially parseable.
I'm (sort of) speaking on behalf of doom-editing@nvg.unit.no, which is
dedicated to the discussion of editing missions for the PC game DOOM. Some
of the editor authors are concerned because their editors have GIF import
capability and they want a replacement.
If the resulting library can be ported to 16-bit DOS and it's higher
powered cousins, then you will have another small camp of supporters. I'm
sure somebody's already gearing up to rehack Mosaic and Netscape, if you can
only find them.
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 11:50 PST
Subject: Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
> eedraq@chapelle.eed.ericsson.se (Raphael Quinet) ,in message <9501061633.AA2807
> 4@chapelle.ericsson.se>, wrote:
>
> > What does this mean for us? That's simple: we cannot use the GIF format in
> > any freeware Doom editor (maybe some shareware authors could afford to pay
> > the royalties).
>
> [...]
>
> If other people are interested I am willing to help develop code for a new
> format. This would include a GLGPL library for reading and writing images
> and a pair of GGPL utilities to convert to and from PPM.
>
> I say fuck GIF. And Compuserv, "Now you shall pay for your lack of vision".
>
I don't see what the big deal is about GIF ? There are dozens (literally
dozens) of conversion programs that deal in GIFs - and will convert them
to any number of other formats.
The BMP format is trivial to decode - why not use that? I'm sure many
users have access to at least *one* program that'll do a GIF->BMP
conversion, should they need it.
- - Ben, eh?
- ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
- -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
------------------------------
From: Chainsaw Jim <jimu@allmalt.cs.uwm.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 14:34:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Raphael Quinet wrote:
>
> I have some bad news. On Dec 29th, 1994, Compu$erve who owns the patent
> for the GIF format has decided that from now on, all programs that use
> this image format must acquire a license from them. Programmers who want
> to obtain this license will have to pay royalties
[...]
> This effectively kills all freeware and most shareware programs using the
> GIF format and the LZW technology for image compression!
[...]
> What does this mean for us? That's simple: we cannot use the GIF format in
> any freeware Doom editor (maybe some shareware authors could afford to pay
> the royalties).
It's not the GIF format that's the issue, but the LZW patent (held by
Unisys) that the GIF format uses.
Official Unisys statement on LZW patent (January 6, 1995):
[...]
> Unisys does not require licensing, or fees to be paid, for non-commercial,
> non-profit GIF-based applications, including those for use on the on-line
> services.
[...]
> The company does not require licensing, or fees to be paid for
> non-commercial, non-profit offerings on the Internet, including Freeware .
See Message-ID <3ek6f0$klq@mycroft.rand.org> in comp.graphics (and a
dozen other newsgroups) for the full article.
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 15:41:23 EST
Subject: Re: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
Ken Tittle <kenti@microsoft.com> ,in message <9501061858.AA16184@netmail2.micro
soft.com>, wrote:
> Why not use JPEG? What needs to happen is a group of people getting
> together and make another standard... This would kill Compu$erve's arrogance.
Uh, JPEG is 24-bit and lossy. It sucks for this application. As you will
soon read, there are already people working on a replacement.
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 15:05:12 CST
Subject: Re: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
> Why not use JPEG? What needs to happen is a group of people getting
> together and make another standard... This would kill Compu$erve's arrogance.
Because you loose data with JPEG. You can't get a good picture of drawn
stuff, most notably anime I'm guessing. But what's most important here are
the bitmaps DOOM uses. We need as much detail as possible in those because
they will be relentlessly scaled, rotated, skewed, and the like. JPEGs will
just not work.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: Michael Hotchin <mhotchin@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 13:46:38 TZ
Subject: RE: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
JPEG is a lossy compression scheme. Great for things like bitmaps of photos,
which have lots of soft edges and gradations of color, but lousy for things
like the low-res bitmaps used in DOOM and company. Since the bitmaps for
DOOM and company are all relatively small, why not just use the standard,
non-compressed picture formats like BMP or PCX? Easy to use, trivial to
decode and just about every GIF viewer under the sun will convert to one
of these formats (so you CAN get your GIF files into DOOM).
Mike H.
- ----------
| From: Ken Tittle <kenti>
| To: <doom-editing@nvg.unit.no>
| Subject: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
| Date: Friday, January 06, 1995 10:47AM
|
|
| Why not use JPEG? What needs to happen is a group of people
| getting together and make another standard... This would kill
| Compu$erve's arrogance.
|
| -= Ken =-
------------------------------
From: Michael Hotchin <mhotchin@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 13:48:47 TZ
Subject: Re: Why not use JPEG?
JPEG is a lossy compression scheme. Great for things like bitmaps of photos,
which have lots of soft edges and gradations of color, but lousy for things
like the low-res, high contrast bitmaps used in DOOM and company.
Since the bitmaps for
DOOM and company are all relatively small, why not just use the standard,
non-compressed picture formats like BMP or PCX? Easy to use, trivial to
decode and just about every GIF viewer under the sun will convert to one
of these formats (so you CAN get your GIF files into DOOM).
Mike H.
- ----------
| From: Ken Tittle <kenti>
| To: <doom-editing@nvg.unit.no>
| Subject: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
| Date: Friday, January 06, 1995 10:47AM
|
|
| Why not use JPEG? What needs to happen is a group of people
| getting together and make another standard... This would kill
| Compu$erve's arrogance.
|
| -= Ken =-
------------------------------
From: adu@freenet.vcu.edu (Andrew Du)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 17:15:15 -0500
Subject: WinDEU 32
WinDEU32 is missing the CTL3D32.DLL..DLL...
------------------------------
From: bmetz@gcr.com (Brent Metz)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 17:43:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: WinDEU 32
> WinDEU32 is missing the CTL3D32.DLL..DLL...
Don't you get that when you install Win32S? I'm using 1.2 w/ OLE, and
I got it when I installed it..
- --
Brent Metz -- bmetz@gcr.com & bmetz@tjhsst.edu
WWW : http://www.tjhsst.edu/home/earth/bmetz/
------------------------------
From: sky@verity.com (Sky Golightly)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 14:58:02 -0800
Subject: RE: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
> On Jan 6, 13:46, Michael Hotchin wrote:
> JPEG is a lossy compression scheme. Great for things like bitmaps of photos,
> which have lots of soft edges and gradations of color, but lousy for things
> like the low-res bitmaps used in DOOM and company. Since the bitmaps for
> DOOM and company are all relatively small, why not just use the standard,
> non-compressed picture formats like BMP or PCX? Easy to use, trivial to
> decode and just about every GIF viewer under the sun will convert to one
> of these formats (so you CAN get your GIF files into DOOM).
>
> Mike H.
>
> ----------
> | From: Ken Tittle <kenti>
> | To: <doom-editing@nvg.unit.no>
> | Subject: FW: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
> | Date: Friday, January 06, 1995 10:47AM
> |
> |
> | Why not use JPEG? What needs to happen is a group of people
> | getting together and make another standard... This would kill
> | Compu$erve's arrogance.
> |
> | -= Ken =-
>-- End of excerpt from Michael Hotchin
I second (third?) the use of BMP or PCX.
- -- sky
------------------------------
From: Dopefish <decerman@ouray.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 16:10:26 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Bad news for all programmers - using GIF means $$$!
On Fri, 6 Jan 1995, Robert Forsman wrote:
> > What does this mean for us? That's simple: we cannot use the GIF format in
> > any freeware Doom editor (maybe some shareware authors could afford to pay
> > the royalties).
>
> If other people are interested I am willing to help develop code for a new
> format. This would include a GLGPL library for reading and writing images
> and a pair of GGPL utilities to convert to and from PPM.
Go for it! We don't need to take this crap.
> I say fuck GIF. And Compuserv, "Now you shall pay for your lack of vision".
Appropriate quote! I have felt the good in them, CI$ can be turned. ;)
But if not, it'll be the last mistake they ever make. ;]
__ __
____ /\ \ /\ \ Dan Cerman
/ \ \ / \ \ _\ \ \ IRC: PizzaDude, Dopefish o
/ /\ \_\ / /\ \ \ /\_\ \ \ o _/|_
\ \ \ | | \ \/ \_\ \ __ \_\ decerman@ouray.cudenver.edu . / \ /
\ \/ |_| \ /\/_/ \ \ \/_/ OO <| ><|
\ / / \ \_\ \ \_\ "For the water is deep, and UU\___/ \
\/_/ \/_/ \/_/ I have dodged the Dopefish."
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #111
**********************************
