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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 120
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #120
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Friday, 13 January 1995 Volume 01 : Number 120
Re: Heretic Sound???
Re: consistency checking
Re: sidedef mode again
Re: sidedef mode again
Re: consistency checking
Re: sidedef mode again
Re: sidedef mode again
Re: Heretic Sound??? n
Re: consistency checking
Re: consistency checking
Re: Heretic Sound???
Re: sidedef mode again
Re: consistency checking
Re: Heretic Sound???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 11:42:52 CST
Subject: Re: Heretic Sound???
> Quoted below is American McGee's response to my EMAIL asking why support for
> the PC speaker was left out of HERETIC. My note pointed out that the vast
> majority of PCs *do not* have sound cards. It's certainly possible that the
> majority of PCs purchased now are bought with sound cards, but there is over
> 100 million out there already. I pointed out that IMHO they were turning
> their backs on a huge customer base, since (again IMHO) DOOM, HERETIC, et
> al, are unplayable without any sound
> at all. As you can see, he was apparently not impressed with my arguments.
>
> > We just decided that it was silly to continue using PC speaker with our
> > games. The sound usage in Heretic is more complicated than that in DOOM,
> > so we could not have done the sounds justice with the PC speaker. All of
> > our games from now on will exclude support for PC speaker.
Good. Maybe now we won't be stuck with the backwards compatability in the
PC Speaker. Hell, a P90 still has the same crap speaker that an 8086 came
with (well, most sane people buying a P90 get a sound card with it). Even
the Mac Plus has a 4 channel speaker.
And besides... I don't think anyone will say, "Gee, I'd love to buy
Heretic, but I feel that I'm missing too much of the Heretic environment
without those wonderful screeches coming from my PC speaker."
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 17:43:21 GMT
Subject: Re: consistency checking
At 3:26 pm 12/1/95, Robert Forsman wrote:
>fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr) ,in message <9501121357.AA0280
> 9@rocke>, wrote:
>
>> >> E Manual door type on one-sided LINEDEF
>> >
{snip]
>
> So a manual door on a linedef that has two sides and doesn't have the 2S
>bit will still affect the other side?
Yes. DOOM doesn't look at flags when operating doors.
>
>> >> W One-sided LINEDEF doesn't have Im bit set
>> >
>> > Not sure this one is necessary.
>>
>> It's not, it's really just informational.
>
> Well, then prepare for 10bzillion warnings if an earlier post about heretic
>was correct. I'm convinced that the Im bit is irrelevant on one-sided lines
>and we should not even care.
DOOM only considers the Im bit after it has assertained that there is a
sector on the other side, which it does from the sidedefs. Im is irrelevant
on real (i.e. those with only a right sidedef) single-sided lines.
>
>> >> W Two-sided LINEDEF normal texture has overlapping patches
>>
>> My understanding is that as long as the texture has non-overlapping
>> patches and all the patches have a zero Y offset, then the texture can be
>> used on a 2-sided line.
>
> That's what Steve says. I'm going to run with that.
Such confidence you guys have in me. Quite touching. ;)
>
>> >> W Teleport LINEDEF refers to more than one SECTOR
>> >
>
> What if that sector has no target? Does it go to the next sector and look
>for a target there? I've never experimented with this.
CRAAAASH!!! AFAICR - been a while since I tested it...
Hope this helps.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 11:45:44 CST
Subject: Re: sidedef mode again
> Another thing that would be really nice to have is to be able to
> flag an "error" as intentional. Then, the program would stop
> bugging you about it every time you did a consistency check.
But where can you keep this in the WAD file? Make another WAD entry?
That's dangerous. Most programs would become incompatable with it (due
to bad programming, but that still doesn't excuse this.... sacrelig. ;)
Make another file? Just keep it in memory, flush the memory when you
quit the program? Have a program specific file of ignore sections?
None of those sound too appetizing to me, and I can't think of anything
else to do.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 12:47:30 EST
Subject: Re: sidedef mode again
<jdh15@po.cwru.edu> ,in message <199501121636.LAA00925@thor.INS.CWRU.Edu>, wrot
e:
> Another thing that would be really nice to have is to be able to
> flag an "error" as intentional. Then, the program would stop
> bugging you about it every time you did a consistency check.
nice idea. Not as easy in practice. Objects tend to get renumbered.
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:32:27 CST
Subject: Re: consistency checking
> So a manual door on a linedef that has two sides and doesn't have the 2S
>bit will still affect the other side?
Visually there is no way to tell since DOOM draws the normal texture
for that side and ignores the upper/lower textures and whether the sector is
up or down. You also have to position yourself correctly to activate the
door since you can walk through 2-sided lines (i.e. you can't depend on
butting up next to the door). Once activated you can hear the door raise
but you never hear the close door sound. So I would say that a manual door
type on a 2-sided line with no 2S bit should be a separate error.
> Well, then prepare for 10bzillion warnings if an earlier post about heretic
>was correct. I'm convinced that the Im bit is irrelevant on one-sided lines
>and we should not even care.
I can agree with this. I just think any editor should treat the bit
in a consistent manner, either always set or always clear the bit when
creating 1-sided lines.
>> This is also informational. During game play, DOOM just teleports
>> you to the lowest # tagged sector and uses the lowest # teleport exit within
>> the sector.
>
> What if that sector has no target? Does it go to the next sector and look
>for a target there? I've never experimented with this.
DOOM will teleport you to the lowest # sector with the same tag as
the teleport LINEDEF. Within the the chosen sector, DOOM chooses the lowest
numbered destination with matching skill level/multiuser bits. If it can't
find a destination that qualifies, you don't get teleported.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: "D.J.S. Damerell" <djsd100@cus.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 18:34:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: sidedef mode again
On 12 Jan 1995 jdh15@po.cwru.edu wrote:
> > This would be nice to have. But what I would really like to see
> > is the results (list of problems) of the checks to appear in a separate box
> > rather than having to step through each of the problems as they occur during
> > the checks.
> Another thing that would be really nice to have is to be able to
> flag an "error" as intentional. Then, the program would stop
> bugging you about it every time you did a consistency check.
This would demand either gup added somewhere DooM doesn't look in the
.WAD or an associated .DEU file - I've been thinking associated .DEU
files with configuration information for specific WADs are a good thing
for some time now.
David Damerell, GCV Sauricon. djsd100@cus.cam.ac.uk RL: Trinity, Cambridge
WOODHAL2.WAD on infant2. CUWoCS President. METLMAZE.WAD sometime soonish.
|___| Loneliness pours over you: Emptiness can pull you through. |___|
| | | Your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me... Queen, '39. | | |
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:46:33 CST
Subject: Re: sidedef mode again
>> Another consistency check to add is player/deathmatch start position
>> checking. I have found that if a start position is centered on a 2-sided
>> LINEDEF is between two sectors of different floor heights, the player can
>> start stuck in the lower-texture wall.
>
> You know, that is one of the more annoying saved game bugs in doom,
>especially on "The Chasm". But it does happen elsewhere. I had to rescue my
>roommate from a bad save. Good thing we know the cheat codes.
Oh yes, that reminds me that I hit the problem when I was trying
to get to the switch to the secret level on E3M6. I also used the no clipping
cheat code to get myself unstuck from the wall and then I promptly resaved.
> Does it happen when the floor heights differ by 24 or less?
> Does it happen when the start position is not EXACTLY on the line? (rounding
>is a dangerous thing)
I suspect the answer to your first question is yes. I have a WAD
handy with the problem so I will check it out. I believe that the answer for
your 2nd question is also yes, at least for diagnonal lines. But it may be
sufficient to just check that the distance from the start position to the
nearest 2-sided line is <= N units (with whatever N turns out to be).
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: olsondw@anubis.network.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:47:41 "CST
Subject: Re: Heretic Sound??? n
- --
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 13:52:09 -0500
Subject: Re: consistency checking
> From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
> Reply-To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
>
> What if that sector has no target? Does it go to the next sector and look
> for a target there? I've never experimented with this.
>
This is one of the nastier crashes, you will hang on start-up with no
indication of why. This is the first thing I check when my WAD
crashes on start-up.
*** a definite ERROR (as opposed to a warning or an informational
message)
Have a good day,
John
__________________________________________________________
John Wakelin |
Datametrics Systems Corp. | Ph. 703 385 7700 x341
12150 East Monument Dr. Ste 300 | Fax 703 385 7711
Fairfax, VA. 22033 USA | johnw@datametrics.com
__________________________________________________________
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 15:06:51 -0500
Subject: Re: consistency checking
> Date: 12-Jan-95 13:52:09 -0500
> From: johnw@datametrics.com (John Wakelin)
> To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
> Reply-to: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
> Subject: Re: consistency checking
> From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
> Reply-To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
>
> > From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
> > Reply-To: doom-editing@nvg.unit.no
>
> >
> > What if that sector has no target? Does it go to the next sector and look
> > for a target there? I've never experimented with this.
> >
>
> This is one of the nastier crashes, you will hang on start-up with no
> indication of why. This is the first thing I check when my WAD
> crashes on start-up.
>
> *** a definite ERROR (as opposed to a warning or an informational
> message)
Sorry about that, this is completely incorrect. I have got to stop
eating while I browse these.
John
__________________________________________________________
John Wakelin |
Datametrics Systems Corp. | Ph. 703 385 7700 x341
12150 East Monument Dr. Ste 300 | Fax 703 385 7711
Fairfax, VA. 22033 USA | johnw@datametrics.com
__________________________________________________________
------------------------------
From: Paul Falstad <pf@zoof.cts.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 13:10:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Heretic Sound???
tedv@geom.umn.edu says:
| Subject: Re: Heretic Sound???
| Good. Maybe now we won't be stuck with the backwards compatability in the
| PC Speaker. Hell, a P90 still has the same crap speaker that an 8086 came
| with (well, most sane people buying a P90 get a sound card with it). Even
| the Mac Plus has a 4 channel speaker.
What?
| And besides... I don't think anyone will say, "Gee, I'd love to buy
| Heretic, but I feel that I'm missing too much of the Heretic environment
| without those wonderful screeches coming from my PC speaker."
It's hard to play the game without those screeches, though! You can't
hear monsters and other players coming. This is really bad for after-hours
Heretic matches at work (where there aren't likely to be any sound cards).
Plus, there are some secrets (at least in Doom) which you won't find
without sound. You may be right that lack of sound will not be the
deciding factor when someone considers buying the game, but then you
could say the same about many of the game's features..
- --
Paul Falstad, pjf@cts.com, http://www.cts.com/~pjf, 619-673-9939
Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are.
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 13:18 PST
Subject: Re: sidedef mode again
> > I believe that it is DCK that provides a results list like
> > this. Of course some things in the list might be hard to find on the map.
> > (E.g. if a problem is "missing texture on LINEDEF #457" it might be tedious
> > to find #457 on the map).
>
> That's why you have a button that says "Mark" and a way to cycle your
> highlight through the marked set. I also need to add a way to center on the
> highlighted object.
DCK allows you to fix almost any of the listed errors automatically (where
automatic fixes are available - some errors like "Too Few Deathmatch
Starts" have to be fixed manually, of course.) It also allows you to jump
to any of the objects simply by pressing 'G' on the error in question.
- - Ben (Author of DCK .. 2.0 is a week or so away now.)
- ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
- -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
------------------------------
From: Andrew McNamara <andrewm@connect.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:04:00 +1100
Subject: Re: consistency checking
> I can see that there should probably be three levels of consistency
>checks: error, warning, and informational. Errors would be those that crash
>DOOM; warnings would be those that grossly affect game play or game appearance
>(like missing textures); informational would be those that don't really affect
>game play, but may cause effects that are unintended.
That sounds like a good idea.
Something else (but I'm not sure how you would implement it) - when a
warning box pops up (and the offending object is highlighted), give the
option of saying "This is intentional - don't tell me about this error
on this object again (until the object is changed)".
Maybe the information could be saved in the WAD file somewhere, maybe it
could be saved in an external file, maybe it shouldn't be saved - just
kept for the current instanciation of the editor.
Just some thoughts.
- --
Andrew McNamara
Systems Engineer
Connect.com.au Pty. Ltd.
------------------------------
From: "Kram Llens" <MSNELL@kitsune.art.rmit.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 11:13:00 EST-10
Subject: Re: Heretic Sound???
>
> And besides... I don't think anyone will say, "Gee, I'd love to buy
> Heretic, but I feel that I'm missing too much of the Heretic environment
> without those wonderful screeches coming from my PC speaker."
>
No, but when i deathmatch, i now play doom, because only one machine
has a a soundcard (mine...to run the CD ROM of Course.. :) ), and it
is too unfair if you can't hear when you are being shot. All they
needed was a clouple of bleeps for when you got hit, and it would
have been okay. Minus a couple of brownie points ID.
Kram
Kram_Llens@rmit.edu.au RMIT, Melbourne, Australia
Ph (03) 660 5378 Fax (03) 660 5342
"I bought some dehydrated water, but I don't
know what to add to it" -Steven Wright
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #120
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