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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 170
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #170
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Monday, 20 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 170
Re: node generator comparison
Re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (was id-ea)
re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (was id-ea)
Re: id-ea
Heretic Sky Info
RE: no more visplanes
Re: editor comparison/3D preview
Re: Heretic Sky Info
Re: Visiplanes:
RE: Re: id-ea
Re: WAD Tricks
Re: id-ea
Re: id-ea/"The WAD"
Re: id-ea/"The WAD"
Re: WAD Tricks
RE: Re: id-ea
Re: WAD Tricks
Re: Little editor problem...
Re: id-ea/"The WAD"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jason Hoffoss" <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 95 22:10:37 CST
Subject: Re: node generator comparison
On Thu, 16 Feb 95 13:27:39 CST,
Robert Fenske Jr <fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu> wrote:
>"Jason Hoffoss" <hoffo002@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
>>Hmm, maybe I could write up a little program to test the optimization and
>>reliability of bsp trees, so we can rate node generators better. Ya,
>>think I will. :)
>
> What are you thinking here? Some criteria I can think of are
>fewest splits, fewest nodes, depth of node tree, width of node tree,
># left branches, # right branches, and various ratios of these measurements.
Ya, pretty much. Check things like: Is the angle correct? Do all the
lines fit into the bounding box? Does a split line actually reach the
nodeline? (I think overlapping to the other side would be better than not
reaching it, if you can't quite get the point exactly right, due to
roundoff) That's about all I can think of right now.
> One thing I have been interested in is computing the optimal node
>tree for a given level and how close (measured in some fashion, perhaps
>subjectively) a node builder can reasonably get to this optimal tree. But
>I have considered that finding the optimal tree would be computationally
>prohibitive. I say this mainly because I don't think that simply choosing
>the best partition line for a given segs set will produce the optimal tree,
>e.g. a particular "best" partition line may force a quite unbalanced tree
>farther down. So I think this means that a whole pile of trees would have
>to be computed and then compared.
Well, in order to produce the most optimal tree, you must use the best
partition line. It may just be that what you think is the best partition
line isn't really the best. The only way I can see to improve the
selection of the best nodeline is to use recursion to check down 2 level
instead of just one in finding the best nodeline. This, however, would
about square the build time. It may find you a better nodeline, however.
You could take it down 3 levels, cubing the time, but now you would
probably improve your nodeline selection even less than before. So, as
you go check down more levels, the benefits of doing this quickly
approaches zero. I don't think going down even 2 levels would really be
worth the time tradeoff.
-Jason
------------------------------
From: l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben)
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 22:15:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (was id-ea)
>l-sieben@MEMPHIS.EDU (ulasieben) ,in message <01HN8NUYWIRM9AP3PR@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS
> .EDU>, wrote:
>
>
>> only display and edit things on Difficulty 1&2, and only MultiPlayer ones. Al
>>> so,
>> maybe user-configurable colors. Pull up a preference box, and select colors.
>> That
>> shouldn't be too hard to implement:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Typical user comment :)
>
Actually, it wouldn't. I've done it before in some of my programs.
Instead of using a BLUE constant, you use a global variable MP_BLUE. Then
the user selects the value for MP_BLUE. The default starts out at blue, but
the user can change it. This works out quite nicely. I thought of another
feature, but I don't know about how easy it is to put in: shell to dos from
DEU. I've needed to look up stuff in FAQs several times, but I wrote an
automator for compiling my WADs. Thus, I have to wait for the BSP, DeuTex,
etc... to finish first. I've never worked with GCC and DJGPP, so I don't
know what a shell to DOS would entail.
-- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 0:09:48 CST
Subject: re: DEU 5.3 Suggestions (was id-ea)
> What do you mean "merge"? Like DCK does? IF it is what I think you mean,
> it'll
> be nice. No more using that v&l key constantly ;).
I explained what I meant in another message. Go read that. ;) At least I
think I replied to this entire group.
> Put the ability to type texture names back in...it was gone from 5.3.
Yes, Raphael told me that was important. It's the first thing I'm doing once
the interface is once again stable.
> Also, search/replace: search for a line of type 62, for example, or a
> sector with tag
No idea what the status of this is. It would be blindingly easy to search
and select all things matching a certain set of requirements. Replace might
be some more work. But it would be a very long time to write the interface.
I don't know whether or not this will be in 5.3. Don't be suprised either
way.
> #4. How about thing masks? ex. Bring up some dialog box to say "OK, I want to
> only display and edit things on Difficulty 1&2, and only MultiPlayer ones.
In the works.
> Also, maybe user-configurable colors. Pull up a preference box, and select
> colors.
Hmmmmmm...... Not a bad idea. But don't be suprised either way. ;)
I *AM* leaving all of these messages in my mail box so that when I have a
free gap of time to work on DEU and (somehow) I have nothing left to do, I
can work on these little extra orders. But I'm afraid it will just be luck
of the draw as to whether or not little things like this make it in or not.
> Also, possibly make the
> menus drag-acrossable. By that I mean select the file menu, and drag the mouse
> over to the Misc. menu and pull down, etc... Also, IMHO the menu should stay
> up after you let go of mouse button until you clickelsewhere. Just makes it
> a tad easier to use.
Sorry, low level mouse editor menu stuff is out of my realm. I'm mainly
interface and algorithms. But we'll keep it in mind.
> Finally, implement some pre-fab operations: stairs, teleporters,
> etc...
Stairs: I'd love to do it. I think it'd be wonderful. If I have time for
something fun that I want to do (as opposed to stuff like being able to type
in strings for texture names like I have to do), I'll do this. I think I'll
make it #1 of the fun things to do. :)
Teleporters? Explain what you have in mind.
Etc.: I can only read minds on Easter, Christmas, and the Ides of March.
Please elaborate.
> Of COURSE! Doing a 5.22 would mean writing code that you know will have
> to be
> rewritten anyway. Makes no sense. I think we can wait for 5.3.
No, what I meant was that you'd prefer to have a program that had new
features in it, not just a rewritten internals.
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: Nick Ramirez <nramirez@bvsd.k12.co.us>
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 23:27:57 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: id-ea
>
> >>Hi You all,
> >> I'd like to propose the idea of a Doom-editing list IWAD, ive a bunch 0
> >>of levels that work best with human style enemies, based on the idea of a
> >>small town with random(ish) insertions of enemies.
> >> If a bunch of us got together and pooled our skills we could build a
> >>CLASSIC!
> >> 32 new levels.
> >> 20 new enemies (make the beasts thinner and faster and smarter?)
> >> all new graphics
> >> a new strategic/tactical theme
> >>Do i hear a seconder, im willing to take the work to edit this, and be
> >>the group coordinator.
> >>-billy
> >
> >I would be very interested in such a project. I am currently working on just
> >such a project. If you need some good levels or input please mail me.
> > Thanks
> >
> >Tom (Clock Paradox)
> >
> Yeah me too. I got a few levels you might be able to use. This is gonna be a
> kick-ass project! Anyone else interested?
> -- Evil Genius
>
>
Yes! To see my work checkout stargate.wad
I'm good with wall and sky textures, if you need some let me know.
- -Nick Ramirez
AKA Barrasso on IRC
------------------------------
From: DTeeter@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 03:46:55 -0500
Subject: Heretic Sky Info
Hi,
I don't know how many people have been experimenting around with editing
Heretic Sky textures, but I've found out a couple of interesting things:
1. Even though Heretic sky textures are depicted as 256X128 pixels in the
textures file, they are really 256X200 pixels. (This is no doubt because of
the fact that in Heretic you can look up and down, and this requires the sky
to take up a greater arc in your vertical field of view so that its edges
won't show)
2. Problem: if you are creating an "all outside" wad with no walls
surrounding it, you will see the sky texture repeat itself if you walk close
to "the edge of the world." This problem was somewhat apparent if you made
this type of wad in Doom, but it is increased by the "look down" capability
in Heretic.
3 Solution: You can increase the "pixel height" of your sky texture file.
Deutex and Wintex will allow me to add sky textures as tall as 256W X 245H
pixels. Heretic works fine with these sky textures loaded, and the apparent
"bottom" of the sky is extended downward accordingly.
Other Notes:
I've been using the beta Doomcad 6.0 and beta Wintex on a Heretic wad I'm
constructing and they are both great apps!
If you haven't checked it out yet, Doomcad 6.0 has a trully kick ass error
checker and some really cool drag and drop linedef and sector capabilities.
The ability to select a linedef or sector and pull up an
all-variable-inclusive dialog box is another neat feature of Doomcad.
I've used Deutex (Dos version) extensively but after using Wintex, I don't
see myself ever going back to Deutex. With Wintex I am able to do all the
things I did with Deutex about 5 times faster and with fewer errors.
For those of you who use windows-based editors, there is really no reason to
use anything but Wintex. If you use a Dos-based editor you may not get as
great a productivity gain, but I would still recommend checking out Wintex.
Later on,
dteeter@aol.com or dteeter@inchq.com (Dan Teeter)
Author of Surreal1.wad and Surreal2.wad
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 09:51:37 +0100
Subject: RE: no more visplanes
On "no more visplanes":
Has anbody (intentionally or accidentally) ever tried a WAD
like this:
+----+----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | D | | | | | |
| A | | | | | | | | | | | B |
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
.... imagine a square, I'm tired
| | | | | | | C | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
+----+----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+
i.e. a large rectangular room, composed of long small sectors with
same heights, but different lightings and/or floor textures.
Now if A looks towards B, his LoS is crossing lot's of 2S lines (thus
there might be another problem :), but as all the borders of the
sectors/floor textures are (nearly) parallel to the horizontal
scanlines on the screen, there won't be a large active edge list.
But while the viewer proceeds from A to C (remember, the room should
approx. a square) *each* horizontal scanline will have to be split
into lots of different pieces, and the renderer might finally suffer
from active edge list overflow.
Comments, anybody?
Remember that in vertical scanlines, things are a lot more easy.
You will always have a sequence (top to bottom) like this:
ceiling->upper->ceiling->middle->floor->lower->floor
You might very well only see any part of this sequence,
but there will always be only *1* middle texture in each
vertical scanline between an upper and a lower.
If any uppers/lowers are in the opposite (back)side along
your view, you'll only see the downmost/upmost edge of it
separating two ceilings/floors, but nevertheless upper's are
always separated by ceilings, lowers by floors. If you
are rendering front-to-back, you'll only need a top and
a bottom index in the vertical scanline to keep track of
already drawn pixels.
In horizontal scanlines changes in floor/ceiling height,
middles/uppers/lowers of pillars and ledges, and
2S sector borders force the renderer to split the lines
into (visible) pieces. This depends not only on the map,
but on the PoV and angle of view, and might change with
raising stairs, lowering crushers etc..
B.
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:00:48 +0100
Subject: Re: editor comparison/3D preview
Jason wrote:
> More like the Descent automap, or something you'd see in
> AutoCad. That's 3D preview. Walkthrough is actually walking
> around
> through the map like you would in Doom. What's everyone think?
That's an accurate choice of names. BTW, a "walkthrough" might
or might not handle the map changes due to raising stairs, doors,
elevators ...
> Btw, my 3D preview will use a BSP tree if available. :)
You'll have to do your own 3D BSP, then. The Descent automap
has a PoV "outside" the map, and I'm not sure the DOOM BSP
will provide any useful information, as there at lots of
places outside that aren't inside any node's bounding box.
In addition, if you want 3 DoMovement/3 DoView like Descent,
you'll need a 3D BSP anyway. And you will have to assign
some "outside" textures/colors for 1S walls, floors and
ceilings. Don't know about any wireframe with hlhsr... Don't
know if any BSP of the "outside" is useful if you are
"flying" trough a wall and need the "inside", will have to
look at this.
Later.
B.
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:07:15 +0100
Subject: Re: Heretic Sky Info
>Deutex and Wintex will allow me to add sky textures as tall as 256W X 245H
>pixels. Heretic works fine with these sky textures loaded, and the apparent
>"bottom" of the sky is extended downward accordingly.
That "245" seems a bit arbitrary to me. I'd understand 128 (vertical
texture tiling is reported to use 128 units/pixels), and 255. Guessing
from limitations of post-like picture patches, as NoOf_ColoredPixels
is 8 bit == 255 max, and Start_Row = 255 indicates end of column,
thus even if you create a picture having two posts in each column
(like one of the BROWN96 or BROWN144 patches - can't remember which),
the max. height of a picture is:
max row = 254 + max NoOf_ColoredPixels = 255 ==> 509 pixels
but I haven't ever heard this works for sprites or wall patches. Is there
another restriction for sky textures, or am I missing something?
B.
------------------------------
From: Robert E Arthur <rea@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:13:36 +0100
Subject: Re: Visiplanes:
> From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
>
> the >128/256 HOM problem is not what this other guy was having. HOM is
> very different from DOOM bailing to DOS.
>
OK - I'm game - are you saying that the 16 2-Ss in a row causes HOM only?
12/256 2-Ss on the screen causes bailout?
This is not a challenge - I genuinely don't know :) (maybe shouldn't have got
invloved in the first place then.....>;-) )
Byeeeee,
Bob.
------------------------------
From: D.Casali@rea0808.wins.icl.co.uk
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 09:33:45 +0000
Subject: RE: Re: id-ea
- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-25229
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tell us all the theme you will be using, I'd give my left arm to
be able to contribute to a project like this, but we want some
sort of consistency or something? I've got some (I think) decent
wads (single player) that are themed around the wooden textures
on Doom2. While I'm asking, is there a sound editor for Doom2
out there anywhere? Is there a version of Dmaud that will pick
- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-25229
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
up Doom2.wad?
Dc/\
- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-25229--
------------------------------
From: MISC335@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 01:25:35 +1300
Subject: Re: WAD Tricks
> been a linetype 48 trick. Also, to Matt Fell, textures WILL animate on a
> 2-sided line. I saw in the Specs they wouldn't. But, being my usual non-
> conformant self, I had to check it out. It animated. BTW, thanks for the
Only in the later versions. 1.1 and 1.2 will not animate a 2-sided
linedef (very annoying
> -- Evil Genius (Jimmy Sieben)
>
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 07:53:34 -0500
Subject: Re: id-ea
> >>Hi You all,
> >> I'd like to propose the idea of a Doom-editing list IWAD, ive a bunch
0
> >>of levels that work best with human style enemies, based on the idea of a
> >>small town with random(ish) insertions of enemies.
> >> If a bunch of us got together and pooled our skills we could build a
> >>CLASSIC!
> >> 32 new levels.
> >> 20 new enemies (make the beasts thinner and faster and smarter?)
> >> all new graphics
> >> a new strategic/tactical theme
> >>Do i hear a seconder, im willing to take the work to edit this, and be
> >>the group coordinator.
> >>-billy
> >
> >I would be very interested in such a project. I am currently working on
just
> >such a project. If you need some good levels or input please mail me.
> > Thanks
> >
> >Tom (Clock Paradox)
> >
> Yeah me too. I got a few levels you might be able to use. This is gonna
be a
> kick-ass project! Anyone else interested?
> -- Evil Genius
>
>
>Yes! To see my work checkout stargate.wad
>I'm good with wall and sky textures, if you need some let me know.
>-Nick Ramirez
>AKA Barrasso on IRC
OK THEN!! lets get the ball rolling! Everybody interested, please send mail
to me --> TWM2029@aol.com Leave Ph# - Address or some other way to contact
you, I will see what I can do to get all of us together working on "The
WAD"!! This will rule!
Tom (Clock Prardox)
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 14:31:04 +0100
Subject: Re: id-ea/"The WAD"
> get all of us together working on "The WAD"!! This will rule!
Haven't followed this thread so far, thus this might be redundant,
but anyway:
a) please remember that an IWAD-sized complete PWAD should still
lack at least some lumps from the registered IWAD,
to make sure it does not work with the shareware version.
b) please do not use any already copyrighted/trademarked "theme",
invent your own.
Note that "Aliens", "Aliens TC", "StarWars" and other large WADs
have been constantly endangered by the fact that some corporates
own the respective rights on this "look & feel". This is
especially true if you are using scans of pictures etc., instead
of povray raytraced images or the like. I definitely like the idea
of this cooperative effort, and it would be nuisance to see it
suffer from copyright infrigement.
B.
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 08:42:07 -0500
Subject: Re: id-ea/"The WAD"
nah, this will use no copyrighted material
------------------------------
From: Steve McCrea <sm@eng.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:44:01 GMT
Subject: Re: WAD Tricks
I wrote:
> [lots of complicated stuff about a possible transparent door deleted]
>
Then I looked at SPCHAUNT.WAD by Robert Fenske, Jr. and felt very
crestfallen. Somehow Alberto Basalla has managed to work out a
transparent door with only one sector! Can anyone explain why the
middle texture moves with the door, even though it's drawn where the
upper texture should be?
Steve.
------------------------------
From: Artemis Entreri <d9ij@unb.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 14:19:26 -0400 (AST)
Subject: RE: Re: id-ea
On Mon, 20 Feb 1995 D.Casali@rea0808.wins.icl.co.uk wrote:
> Tell us all the theme you will be using, I'd give my left arm to
> be able to contribute to a project like this, but we want some
> sort of consistency or something? I've got some (I think) decent
> wads (single player) that are themed around the wooden textures
Whoever's making up the list, please count me in for level-making. Don't
you think it'd be better if we started the levels from scratch with a
theme in mind instead of finding levels that fit the theme? Well, that's
just me. Comments?
************ Artemis Entreri ******* d9ij@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca ************
"There is a wide world out there, my friend, full of pain, but filled with
joy as well. The former keeps you on the path of growth, and the latter makes
the journey more tolerable." -R.A. Salvatore
------------------------------
From: fenske@rocke.electro.swri.edu (Robert Fenske Jr)
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:30:39 CST
Subject: Re: WAD Tricks
>Then I looked at SPCHAUNT.WAD by Robert Fenske, Jr. and felt very
>crestfallen. Somehow Alberto Basalla has managed to work out a
>transparent door with only one sector! Can anyone explain why the
>middle texture moves with the door, even though it's drawn where the
>upper texture should be?
>
>Steve.
Alberto's original scheme was more complicated. I and some others
independently worked out the simpler method I used in SPCHAUNT.
Anyway, consider a regular door. If it had a normal texture, you
would see the normal texture get drawn from the top of the newly rising
ceiling, i.e. the texture moves with the opening door. The transparent
door's texture acts the same. It's only difference is it's Y offset. If
it has a zero Y offset, you would see the normal texture appear and then
move with the ceiling (which you can't see because it only exists on the
door lines) just like a regular door.
Robert Fenske, Jr. rfenske@swri.edu Sw | The Taming the C*sm*s series:
Electromagnetics Division /R---\ |
Southwest Research Institute | I | | "The Martian canals were the
San Antonio, Texas USA \----/ | Martians' last ditch effort."
------------------------------
From: setc@together.net (Ross Carlson)
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 15:07:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Little editor problem...
>
>Here are my problems:
>- I was making a map in DoomEd, but I can't save it in playable mode
>because it says one of my sectors isn't complete (But I checked ALL of
>them, and they are.), and when I just reguraly save it, DCK can't load it.
>(It usualyl can, and it magically solves all my problems.) What would
>anyone suggest I do?
>
>- In DCK, I can't get it to fine mode. I can only place vertexes and
>things on the vertexes of the grid, and it's really annoying. Using the
>"'" key, as the key help says...
>
>Colin.
Hey Colin, I'd be happy to take a look at your .wad. I've had good luck
with fixing sector problems in DEU 5.21
Or, you could try loading it into DEU yourself, did you try that yet?
If you want me to look at it, tell me where to find it, and I'll get back to
you within a day or so.
- -Ross
------------------------------
From: setc@together.net (Ross Carlson)
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:23:05 -0500
Subject: Re: id-ea/"The WAD"
Hey everyone!
I'm posting this message to the mailing list to see what kind of interest
there might be in my idea. This message was originally sent to Tom, the guy
who asked everyone interested in "THE WAD" to send him info.
Here 'tis:
Howdy, I'll do whatever I can. Unfortunately, I manage a Software Etc.
Store and own my own business, so my time is limited, but just about ALL of
my free time goes to either 4-player deathmatch, or toying around with wads.
The biggest reason I'm responding is because I may be able to devote a web
page to this thing, I'm not sure, so don't hold me to it, but I do have the
option to create my own home page at my internet service providers location.
I am currently drafting a business plan for an internet consulting service,
in which case I will be setting up a WWW node, and I need to learn all I can
about web programming. Therefore I would like to offer my services as
coordinator of a web page where people involved in this project can go to
get info, download levels to playtest, etc. This web page could also hold a
list of those people who are involved, and their personal e-mail addresses
in case one particular member wanted to contact another individually. This
could serve as an alternative to a new mailing list. Again, I'll have to
talk to my service provider to make sure I can do this, but let me know if
this could be helpful. Also, I could maintain an archive of posts dealing
with this topic, and make it available via links to FTP sites right in the
page. The same would be done with the editors, graphics files, patches,
etc... that are being used on the project. This would make it very
convenient for averyone. It would be a central location for all aspects of
this project.
I think this is very exciting, but I can't justify spending tons of time on
making new graphics, levels etc, but I CAN justify maintaining a web site
for this thing because it will benefit me in many other ways.
What do you think?? I will put this message up on the mailing list to see
what kind of interst there is in the idea.
Here's my address:
SETC@together.net
P.S. - I've just checked this idea out with the administration at my local
web server, and it's cool with them!
That's it...
Please e-mail me if you think this is a good idea, or any suggestions for
the content of the web site. I'm willing to get started right away!
- -Ross
setc@together.net
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #170
**********************************
