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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 158
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #158
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Tuesday, 14 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 158
Re: DEU 5.3 Beta
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
Re: DCK 2.0
QUAKE?
Re: DoomCAD BETA list
Re: almost objective editor comparison
(Overdue!) Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: DoomCAD notes
Re: DCK 2.0
Advanced? DOOM?? editing???
RE: QUAKE?
Re: almost objective editor comparison
Re: almost objective editor comparison
RE: QUAKE?
RE: QUAKE?
Re: QUAKE?
Re: The Enemy...
Re: almost objective editor comparison
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 19:42:55 CST
Subject: Re: DEU 5.3 Beta
> Finally! Its out! YES! Beta 1 is great...it just has those usual
> beta bugs. Saving doesn't work, things don't work, etc... Good work,
> though. Also, the run all checks feature is great. Some suggestions
> for next Beta/Release. Put the ability to type names for textures and
> flats back in.
Possible, but a pain. Well... not a pain. But we have more important things
to do first. You've already named most of them. :)
> The scroll bars are nice, but if you know the name of
> a texture, its easier to type its name in. Also, some of the buttons
> report "Not Implemented Yet", but it works. Ex: I edit sidedef 1,
> change a texture, and click OK. It says "NIY", but the changes
> are saved.
Yeah, I thought that was weird to. I'll take a look at that. Maybe I forgot
to break from the switch statement...
> Also, if possible, make the pull-down menus more like
> Windoze and other progs. Ex: in Windoze, you click on any menu, and
> drag the pointer, and the other menus are selected. Once again, great
> work!
Welcome. Why wasn't this posted to the deu beta testers list though? If
you're not on the list, who did you get the beta from?
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: <jdh15@po.cwru.edu>
Date: 14 Feb 1995 03:09:35 GMT
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> Lane Copley
> Je suis terrarement du tout les produits du lait.
> Deiner Film mit den explitzit insectenschadenfreude sehr interessant war.
Not to pick nits (or insekten), but this should be:
Dein Film mit der explitziten Insektenschadenfreude war sehr interessant.
- -j
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy Holland jdh15@po.cwru.edu
http://maniac.cwru.edu/~deth/
If you visit American city,
You will find it very pretty.
Just two things of which you must beware:
Don't drink the water and don't breathe the air.
-Tom Lehrer
------------------------------
From: bmorris@islandnet.com (Ben Morris)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 21:25 PST
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> Actually, methinks it may. Why? Well, given that I'm a lowly segmented
> mode scumsucker, this might be flawed, but, in 32-bit protected mode, you
> deal with a lot of 32-bit numbers--in fact, your dealings are almost
> exclusively 32-bit. So it follow that any div operations are gonna hafta
> be fdiv, since normal div can't handle 32-bit inputs. Pentium's problem
> is with the fdiv instruction, ne? So...make the connection.
idiv handles 32-bit inputs. even imul can handle 64-bit multiplications:
it puts the high-dword in edx, and the low-dword in eax after the
instruction.
besides, those 386 computers that use 32-bit address space and DON'T have
a coprocessor to do fdivs would have a hard time of it <grin>
- - Ben
- ---------------------------------------------- * --------------------
the felix of your truth will always break it / Ben Morris
and the iris of your eye always shake it / ..your typical CN
- -- "Iris" / Live -------------------------- / -----------------------
revel in your perception * bmorris@islandnet.com
------------------------------
From: Anthony Spataro <ads@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:12:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> besides, those 386 computers that use 32-bit address space and DON'T have
> a coprocessor to do fdivs would have a hard time of it <grin>
I always wondered why those old SXs were so damned inaccurate! =)
/ads@netcom.com
[LC/Cardy/Kilwren/Cardenyl
\PASO/Paradigm/Storm
---------------------------->
Justice, n.:
A decision in your favor.
------------------------------
From: TWM2029@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 03:21:22 -0500
Subject: QUAKE?
I know this is not the Quake Editing (or gossiping) mailing list, but does
anybody have any idea how Quake is progressing? Is there a FAQ yet, and a
release date? The last release date info was for Late Fall 95 from John
Romero. If there is anything new developing about this, please respond!
Thanks
Clock Paradox (Paradox) - TWM
------------------------------
From: mlefebvr@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Michael)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 00:54:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: DoomCAD BETA list
How do I get on DoomCad Beta list?
Mike
------------------------------
From: Jens Hedegaard Hykkelbjerg <hykkelbj@daimi.aau.dk>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:23:20 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Re: almost objective editor comparison
First of all let me say that I think it would be nice to have
a quick way of comparing editors. However there is a problem with this:
first of all we might start a new editor war like
DCK/WADED/EdMap/DoomCad/DoomEd vs DEU 5.3
(In my opinion the correct version of DEU should be 23.141592653589793238
by the time the next version is finished ;)
So please don't start more editor wars based on this document
I'm very fed up with the wars we have already!
A comparison chart like this is also bound to be unable to capture
the small things that makes editors nice to use:
easy scrolling, nice preview facilities etc.
(OK maybe we could add a preview entry)
> PFME (Your editor here)
> Full edit
> capability Y
>
> multi-object
> selections Y
>
> Prefab
> operations 1
>
> Freeform
> sector N
> draw
>
> Multi-view Y
>
> Multi-mission Y
>
> Cut&paste Y
>
> Undo/Redo N
>
> Built-in NODES
> builder 0%
>
> Built-in BLOCKMAP
> builder N
>
> Built-in REJECT
> builder N
>
> Game
> support D2H
>
> Supported Linux/SunOS
> platforms X11R5
>
> Cost $0
How about:
Automatic texture alignment: ??%
External resource: import/keep/erase
Multiple Texture modes: Y/N
Preview: wireframe/surface removal/Screen shot
Notes:
Automatic texture alignment (ATA):
The ATA should be able to make relatively intelligent decisions
regarding upper/lower unpegged attributes.
If the editor is capable of making offset texture alignments, but
doesn't consider unpegging, make it 50%. 100% means it ALWAYS
generates good looking textures, and 0% oh well...
External resource:
How does the editor treat external resources such as sounds,
graphics, text, etc? Is it able to "import" new resources
into the wad or will it only "keep" existing resources,
or will the editor erase or damage unknown resources.
Multiple texture modes:
Is it possible for the user to set up multiple selections of textures
to be applied to new walls created (Multiple default textures)?
- ------------- Warning written by the author of RMB ------------
And a note for the efficiency ratings for the built in
NODES & REJECT map builder:
To make better ratings let me start by saying that RMB has an INSPECT
utility to measure the number of 1's in the generated REJECT map.
It could be very easy to use INSPECT (or another utility to do the same)
to test different REJECT builders against each other. To get similar
percentages, I suggest to measure the efficiency on a fixed WAD.
I suggest that all REJECT measurements is done counting the 1's in
the REJECT map of STARWAR1.WAD after a build.
To give a better rating we could write for instance
REJECT: 73% time: 3 min 23 sec (Starwar1.wad)
(This example has nothing to do with reality. I've never measured
these exact numbers on any reject map builder)
To measure the node builder efficiency is much more difficult,
but it should be possible to measure the build time (use starwar1 again)
NODE: 95% time: 5 min 14 sec (starwar1.wad)
^ Means the node builder fucks up from time to time
Note that it's not enough that the editor makes a perfect NODE
map for starwar 1 to score 100%, you will have to test it on at
least 10 different (preferably large) WADs, and look around for
problems. (Make sure that there IS a node builder that builds a
NODE map without the detected problem).
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
And as a final note let me say that I'm currently trying to write
a document describing the algorithm used in RMB. I'll also give some
suggestions as to how the REJECT editing features in RMB could be
incorporated in an editor.
Sorry if my mail was a little long, but you can all relax now,
I don't mail very often...
/Jens Hykkelbjerg
- --
Jens Hykkelbjerg | "Civilisation began with the felling
Aarhus Universitet | of the first tree; and, it will end
Email: hykkelbj@daimi.aau.dk | with the felling of the last."
WWW: http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~hykkelbj/index.html
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 15:30:53 GMT
Subject: (Overdue!) Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
This message is being posted at the request of the list caretaker:
The purpose of this list is to discuss *advanced* DOOM editing techniques.
In order to keep it that way, if you have a question but don't know whether
it's advanced or not, mail it in the first instance to:
Steve Benner : S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk
Your question will either be answered or, if deemed suitable, forwarded to
the list. This is offered as a potential red-face saving and
list-annoyance abatement service. Feel free to send questions at any level
on any topic of WAD editing.
**If your questions are prefixed with the code WQ: (for 'WAD query') in the
subject field (e.g. Subject: WQ: Sprites), they will be processed quicker
because they will be spotted by an automatic mail sorter and brought to my
attention sooner than if I have to plough through my mail-box!**
This reminder will be posted here weekly, with the same subject title.
SEND QUERIES ABOUT SUBSCRIPTION TO:-
doom-editing-owner@ngv.unit.no **NOT** to me. Thank you.
==
- -Steve : also, check out http://cres1.lancs.ac.uk/~esasb1/doom/index.html
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:58:18 EST
Subject: Re: DoomCAD notes
http://www.cis.ufl.edu/~thoth/purplefrog/comparison.html
matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri) ,in message <24.112961.5@pcohio.
com>, wrote:
>
> DoomCAD 6.0
> current status: beta (available to list members on request)
>
> DO>Full edit capability
> NO: all GUI based
Well, my editor is GUI-based, and I can edit everything. Do you restrict
their choice of thing types, or are there fields in the structures you don't
let them edit? I guess this should be a %age score too. What percentage of
the fields in the 5 structs do you allow complete control over?
> DO>Freeform sector draw N
> Not really. Need two steps: lay down vertices, trace around for sector.
> All lDef/sDefs are created.
That scores 1/2.
> DO>Multi-view Y
> Implemented as Modes (Thing Mode/lDef Mode etc.
Not exactly what I meant. Can you have two "windows" open at the same time
editing the same mission independently? (one in vertex mode, the other in
vertex or linedef mode.)
> DO>Multi-mission Y
> Using included WADMerge, yes
Huh? Can you have two windows open at the same time viewing different
missions? (I guess it's OK if the two windows are different programs.)
> DO>Game support
> Doom 1, Doom2, Heretic.
>
> Any new game following the WAD standard can be added by adding a new
> .INI file to the directory.
Extensibility gets you the + flag
> 3D wireframe preview (w/ hidden lines removed).
Cool.
> almost 100% Bob-compliant consistency checker, several orders of magnitude
> better than previous versions.
How could I forget consistency checking?! Jeez.
------------------------------
From: "jeffery galinovsky - EUCD" <jgalinov@pcocd2.intel.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:41:19 -0800
Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
On Feb 13, 4:05pm, Anthony Spataro wrote:
> Subject: Re: DCK 2.0
> > > I hate to say it, but I think it is. =) Works fine on mine, except for
> > > the vidcard detection which is my bastard halfbreed card's fault and the
> > > hosed DPMI which is Borland's fault. It's the Curse of the New Hot
> > > System, striking again.
> > >
> > Are you sure that this problem doesn't have anything to do with bugged
> > Pentiums? Just a thought........
>
> Actually, methinks it may. Why? Well, given that I'm a lowly segmented
> mode scumsucker, this might be flawed, but, in 32-bit protected mode, you
> deal with a lot of 32-bit numbers--in fact, your dealings are almost
> exclusively 32-bit. So it follow that any div operations are gonna hafta
> be fdiv, since normal div can't handle 32-bit inputs. Pentium's problem
> is with the fdiv instruction, ne? So...make the connection.
>
>-- End of excerpt from Anthony Spataro
Anthony,
Sorry, but the Pentium does do 32 bit INTEGER Divides. I am looking at the
data book as I am writting this! DIV for dword = DIV EAX,{r/m32}. The r/m32
means either a 32bit register or memory dword. I don't know where you heard
that the Pentium does not do 32 bit Integer Divs, but that info is wrong!
Even so, the Pentium bug is an accuracy issue and occurs way out in the
mantissa. If this error is occuring, it certainly would not CRASH your system.
I think this discussion is going nowhere...even people with fixed Pentiums
see the crashing. It is obviously NOT the Pentium bug that is crashing your
system. I think that the programmers of DCK should look at their code before
releasing the next version.
Just my $0.02...
Jeff
- --
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Jeffery R. Galinovsky | These are my views and not |
| | those of my employer! |
| jgalinov@pcocd2.intel.com | |
| Jeffery_R_Galinovsky@ccm.fm.intel.com | 8^) |
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:53:10 GMT
Subject: Advanced? DOOM?? editing???
Geez.... I take 4 days away from the email and what happens? I get back to
134 new Doom editing messages. After ploughing through all this lot I've
discovered that half of these messages aren't about DOOM editing at all
(Pentium slagging and OS wars get everywhere it seems) and most of the rest
are on matters specifically stated as off-topic in the welcome message
(Editor wars... what's happening on Quake... where can I get a copy of....
what's a door for?)
Is this the Doom editing list or an alt group? Or should I just mail the
list and ask how I should unsubscribe? ;)
C'mon guys -- back on topic, please.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: "David Peterson" <peterson.145@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 00:59:53 EST
Subject: RE: QUAKE?
In Message Tue, 14 Feb 1995 03:21:22 -0500, TWM2029@aol.com writes:
>I know this is not the Quake Editing (or gossiping) mailing list, but does
>anybody have any idea how Quake is progressing? Is there a FAQ yet, and a
>release date? The last release date info was for Late Fall 95 from John
>Romero. If there is anything new developing about this, please respond!
I think it won't come out until at least winter, if not '96.
------------------------------
From: Steve McCrea <sm@eng.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 17:07:31 GMT
Subject: Re: almost objective editor comparison
Jens wrote:
>
> first of all we might start a new editor war like
> DCK/WADED/EdMap/DoomCad/DoomEd vs DEU 5.3
>
Why do so few people know about dmapedit? It was one of the first editors,
and it's now one of the best. Have a look at the demo mode in action! It
creates a (non-trivial) level from scratch in 10 minutes, including
stairs, doors, debugging, and explanation!
Steve.
PS To Bob Forsman: What the **** does "cut& paste" mean?! Ok, I get
"cut" and I get "paste", but "amp;"?
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 14:08:11 EST
Subject: Re: almost objective editor comparison
Steve McCrea <sm@eng.cam.ac.uk> ,in message <199502141707.26072@club.eng.cam.ac
.uk>, wrote:
> Why do so few people know about dmapedit?
Inertia. They find something that works and they are loath to invest time
learning something else.
I used DooMCAD for a while (it had the best consistency checking) and
switched to deu5.21gcc when it came out (didn't have to boot windows). After
that, I didn't even consider anything else (15M available memory is mighty
swell). I would have just run with the DEU source, but djgpp had a habit of
rebooting my machine and DOS sucks as a software development system.
I need to take a look at DCK and DoomEd and a couple of others, but I'd
have to ftp them, boot DOS, read docs (which isn't easy in a uni-tasking
environment) and spend time figuring out what is and isn't there. One of
these days I'll have to do that, but not now. Besides, restarting slip in
the middle of the afternoon is impossible (lines are full).
> PS To Bob Forsman: What the **** does "cut& paste" mean?! Ok, I get
> "cut" and I get "paste", but "amp;"?
& is HTML for &. Check the URL I mentioned in my reply to DOOMCAD.
------------------------------
From: Dopefish <decerman@ouray.cudenver.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:19:06 -0700 (MST)
Subject: RE: QUAKE?
> >I know this is not the Quake Editing (or gossiping) mailing list, but does
> >anybody have any idea how Quake is progressing? Is there a FAQ yet, and a
> >release date? The last release date info was for Late Fall 95 from John
> >Romero. If there is anything new developing about this, please respond!
> I think it won't come out until at least winter, if not '96.
If you want QUAKEtalk 3.00, finger dcerman@carbon.cudenver.edu, or email
me for a copy. You can also get to the QUAKE home page on WWW. I forgot
the URL, but you can get to it from my page at
http://www.cudenver.edu/[tilde]decerman.
__ __
____ /\ \ /\ \ Dan Cerman
/ \ \ / \ \ _\ \ \ decerman@ouray.cudenver.edu o
/ /\ \_\ / /\ \ \ /\_\ \ \ o _/|_
\ \ \ | | \ \/ \_\ \ __ \_\ <<--+-=-+--<BFG>--+-=-+-->> . / \ /
\ \/ |_| \ /\/_/ \ \ \/_/ OO <| ><|
\ / / \ \_\ \ \_\ "For the water is deep, and UU\___/ \
\/_/ \/_/ \/_/ I have dodged the Dopefish."-js
------------------------------
From: vamsi nath <vnath@ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 14:19:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: QUAKE?
For more info on QUAKE check out Quaketalk..it's on the WWW now.
On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, David Peterson wrote:
> In Message Tue, 14 Feb 1995 03:21:22 -0500, TWM2029@aol.com writes:
>
> >I know this is not the Quake Editing (or gossiping) mailing list, but does
> >anybody have any idea how Quake is progressing? Is there a FAQ yet, and a
> >release date? The last release date info was for Late Fall 95 from John
> >Romero. If there is anything new developing about this, please respond!
> I think it won't come out until at least winter, if not '96.
>
------------------------------
From: Piotr Kapiszewski (Kapi) <kapis-p@grinch.cs.buffalo.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 14:30:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: QUAKE?
David Peterson said:
> In Message Tue, 14 Feb 1995 03:21:22 -0500, TWM2029@aol.com writes:
> >I know this is not the Quake Editing (or gossiping) mailing list, but does
> >anybody have any idea how Quake is progressing? Is there a FAQ yet, and a
> >release date? The last release date info was for Late Fall 95 from John
> >Romero. If there is anything new developing about this, please respond!
> I think it won't come out until at least winter, if not '96.
FAQ is available from:
http://doomgate.cs.buffalo.edu/quake/
finger quake-talk@doomgate.cs.buffalo.edu
and is maintained by Joost Schuur (jschuur)
- -Kapi
- --
PGP key available from doomgate.cs.buffalo.edu | Piotr Kapiszewski
URL at http://doomgate.cs.buffalo.edu/~kapis-p/ | kapis-p@cs.buffalo.edu
------------------------------
From: Matthew Miller <rmiller@infinet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 14:41:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: The Enemy...
On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, C. Sheldon wrote:
> On 13 Feb 1995 jdh15@po.cwru.edu wrote:
[ one of the faces-carved-in-marble looks like the Archvile ]
> It stands to reason that much of the artwork, etc, would tend
> look "alike" as does most artwork by a specific artist. I can see
> similarities in ALL of the doom monsters, with the possible exception of
> the mutant soldiers but, even they have some "similar" facial features to
> IMPS (if you look carefully) =)
Now, hold on just a second! :) The enemies were *not* drawn--they were
photographed from models. According to the Doom II manual, `model
development' was done by one Gregor Punchatz, and the artworks were
created by Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud. Two separate groups of
people, you see.
But I personally agree with Sheldon, to a point, about the
enemies tending to look sort of samey. I think they did a much better
job of giving variety to the appearances of the new enemies in Doom II
(and gorier, too--look how the Archvile's arms and legs snap apart as it
dies, how the mancubus's skin seems to melt off its bones). This is all
IMHO of course...
Matthew Miller -- rmiller@infinet.com
------------------------------
From: Ed Phillips <flaregun@udel.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:02:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: almost objective editor comparison
On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Steve McCrea wrote:
> Jens wrote:
> >
> > first of all we might start a new editor war like
> > DCK/WADED/EdMap/DoomCad/DoomEd vs DEU 5.3
> >
> Why do so few people know about dmapedit? It was one of the first editors,
> and it's now one of the best. Have a look at the demo mode in action! It
> creates a (non-trivial) level from scratch in 10 minutes, including
> stairs, doors, debugging, and explanation!
>
I agree. I'm impressed by DMapEdit. I didn't know about it until
the recent talk about it, either. I got it last night, tried it out...
and I think it's great! (enough of the testimonial tho'...)
One problem people might be having running it is that it is
compiled with DJGPP. GO32.EXE (DJGPP's DOS extender) is included in the
distribution with the DMAPEDIT.EXE. For those of us who already have
DJGPP installed, there can be a conflict of GO32 versions. To be sure
you're using the right one, cd into your DME dir and type:
GO32 DMAPEDIT.EXE -IC:\<your doom dir here>
Also, DME assumes you have a VESA compatible video card, so you may need
to use the UNIVESA.EXE driver include in the dist. If you don't have a
coprocessor, you may also need to setup your GO32 environment variable.
Jason... maybe you could put some kind of readme/faq file in the dist
about DJGPP. It is BETA, after all, so this may not be a concern at the
point. Maybe a copyleft notice too. (Thanks for a great editor :)
To find out more about DJGPP you can subscribe to the DJGPP mailing list
by sending no subject and one line of body like:
add myname@my.computer.onthe.net djgpp
to listserv@sun.soe.clarkson.edu. BE WARNED though, the DJGPP list sees
more traffic than this list! The FAQ for DJGPP is on simtel sites... one
place for sure is ftp.cdrom.com:pub/simtel/msdos/djgpp/faq100.zip. This
should have enough info for you to get up to speed on running DJGPP apps.
Best of all... DJGPP is FREE SOFTWARE! (not quite as good as free beer,
but hey!)
Ed
/****************************************************************************/
/* Ed Phillips flaregun@udel.edu University of Delaware */
/* Jr Systems Programmer (302) 831-6082 IT/Network and Systems Services */
/****************************************************************************/
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #158
**********************************
