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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 081
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #81
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Saturday, 10 December 1994 Volume 01 : Number 081
Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Blinking lights and animated textures
Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Re: WAD Editors... (non PC based?)
Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Re: .DXF and .DWG files
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 1994 21:40:32 EST
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
"Chris Campbell (ME)" <ccampbel@suntan.eng.usf.edu> ,in message <Pine.SUN.3.91.
941208185958.4268A-100000@suntan>, wrote:
> Hell if I know. I just thought it would be nice to be able to draw a map
> in AutoCAD and import it (via a .DXF file) into an editor. Since AutoCAD
> has all the copy/mirroring/everything commands, it makes it much easier
> to draw. I believe .DXF's are raster images.
Say, WHAT?! rasters? No fucking way. Extracting "information" from
raster images is a computer vision task, and while I belong to the Center
for Computer Vision and Visualization, I do not look forward to the task of
doing image understanding on something output by a commercial package.
I can almost guarantee that a CAD interchange format is NOT a raster. If
you're so hot on .DXF files, figure out their format for us :) Until then
I have to nail a bug in my topology analysis engine.
------------------------------
From: "Chris Campbell (ME)" <ccampbel@suntan.eng.usf.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:34:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, Robert Forsman wrote:
> "Chris Campbell (ME)" <ccampbel@suntan.eng.usf.edu> ,in message <Pine.SUN.3.91.
> 941208185958.4268A-100000@suntan>, wrote:
>
> > Hell if I know. I just thought it would be nice to be able to draw a map
> > in AutoCAD and import it (via a .DXF file) into an editor. Since AutoCAD
> > has all the copy/mirroring/everything commands, it makes it much easier
> > to draw. I believe .DXF's are raster images.
>
> Say, WHAT?! rasters? No fucking way. Extracting "information" from
> raster images is a computer vision task, and while I belong to the Center
> for Computer Vision and Visualization, I do not look forward to the task of
> doing image understanding on something output by a commercial package.
>
> I can almost guarantee that a CAD interchange format is NOT a raster. If
> you're so hot on .DXF files, figure out their format for us :) Until then
> I have to nail a bug in my topology analysis engine.
>
It was just a thought....A nice thought I might add. After I started
editing, I noticed that no editor (at least the ones I have used) have a
copy or mirror command. This would be a very nice feature to implement.
About .DXF's....It is obvious that I don't know much about them.
Later,
C. S. Campbell
------------------------------
From: Claude Charles MARTINS <martins@marge.cs.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 01:16:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Blinking lights and animated textures
Hey all:
The server froze when I tried to send my previous message, so if
this appears twice, I apologize.
Okay, does anyone know the relationship (if any) between blinking
light sectors and animated textures? What I'd like to create is
something like the following:
[ASCII art alert]
========== The === line represents some
| X | animated texture. The sector
+---------------+ labelled X is on constant
| | lighting, so the animation is
| Blinking | always visible.
| Sector |
| |
+---------------+
Now assume the animated texture is four frames long. Create
replacements for those frames so that they are all dark but
ONE is bright. eg. a simple wall with an exposed panel that
sparks for one frame out of four.
And for the kicker: is it even possible to coincide this flashing
with the regular blinking sector --- .25 s, .5 s, etc.?
So:
SECTOR TEXTURE
DARK DARK
DARK DARK
*BLINK* *SPARK*
DARK DARK
Any takers?
/ Claude Martins, MagiTech Inc., martins@cs.mcgill.ca, McGill University \
| Co-Author of INVASION pwad series for DOOM, SWLSABER gfx patch |
| "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." |
\ - Darth Vader, Star Wars /
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 10:03:30 GMT
Subject: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Steve Benner wrote:
>
>My particular problem concerns line type 12 (lights to highest nearby
>level). I have a WAD with rooms like this (sort of, allowing for
>simplifications and ASCII art limitations):-
>
>
> o-----o----o o----o-----o
> | : | | : | Sectors A, B, D, E have
> | A : B o-----------------o D : E | lighting levels of 48
> | : : C : : |
> | : o-----o o------o : | C has lighting level 128
> | : | | | | : |
> o-----o----o etc o----o-----o
> |
> V
>
> Linedefs between A/B and D/E are triggers of linetype 12
> Linedef A/B is tagged to sectors A & B;
> Linedef D/E is tagged to sectors D & E;
>
>Linedef D/E works fine: lights come up to the level of sector C in D & E
>Linedef A/B does nothing!
>
>As far as I can tell from my WAD, each "half" is an exact mirror image of
>the other in implementation, EXCEPT for linedef and sector NUMBERING (A and
>B were added in a funny order: A is sector 5, B is sector 57, C is sector
>35, D is sector 36, E is sector 34 - well, something like that anyway).
>Should this matter?
>
Since no-one has come up with the correct answer to my little problem
(though thanks to everyone who tried, Dean) I thought you might all like to
know what the solution eventually was. I was, in fact, half way there with
my worries about sector numbers. By renumbering sectors A and B to numbers
closer to C, I got the desired effect. It seems that linetype 12 (switch
light level to highest NEARBY level) uses the SECTOR NUMBERs to determine
which sectors are "nearby", rather than any examination of physical
proximity. No doubt other lines work the same way. I have to confess that
I didn't spend time experimenting to determine the precise algorithm by
which the DOOM engine computes "nearness", I'll maybe do this later (unless
some-one else already has and would like to enlighten the rest of us) but
it leads me to make a request of all wad-editor authors: please don't make
sector (and, of course linedef) numbering totally inaccessible to the user.
There is a real need to be able to re-order these things.
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 10:06:40 GMT
Subject: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
This message is being posted at the request of the list caretaker:
The purpose of this list is to discuss *advanced* DOOM editing techniques.
In order to keep it that way, if you have a question but don't know whether
it's advanced or not, mail it in the first instance to:
Steve Benner : S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk
Your question will either be answered or, if deemed suitable, forwarded to
the list. This is offered as a potential red-face saving and
list-annoyance abatement service. Feel free to send questions at any level
on any topic of WAD editing. If your questions are prefixed with the code
WQ: (for 'WAD query') in the subject field (e.g. Subject: WQ: Sprites),
they will be processed quicker.
This reminder will be posted here weekly, with the same subject title.
==
- -Steve : also, check out http://cres1.lancs.ac.uk/~esasb1/doom/index.html
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 10:40:44 EST
Subject: Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner) ,in message <11396.9412091003@cent1.lan
cs.ac.uk>, wrote:
> my worries about sector numbers. By renumbering sectors A and B to numbers
> closer to C, I got the desired effect. It seems that linetype 12 (switch
> light level to highest NEARBY level) uses the SECTOR NUMBERs to determine
> which sectors are "nearby", rather than any examination of physical
> proximity.
line type 12 has this entry in the prerelease specs:
12 Light W1 - - - - HE (light level)
`HE', according to the table's key, means highest adjacent sector
(exclusive of the tagged sector). Now, what "highest" means is lost to me
*nudge*nudge*Matt*. It could be highest ceiling or highest floor, but then
it should have a C or F in there. It might be the highest numbered sector.
I think this wants a clarification in a future release of the specs.
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 16:16:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Robert Forsman wrote:
>S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner) ,in message <11396.9412091003@cent1.lan
> cs.ac.uk>, wrote:
>
>
>> my worries about sector numbers. By renumbering sectors A and B to numbers
>> closer to C, I got the desired effect. It seems that linetype 12 (switch
>> light level to highest NEARBY level) uses the SECTOR NUMBERs to determine
>> which sectors are "nearby", rather than any examination of physical
>> proximity.
>
> line type 12 has this entry in the prerelease specs:
>
> 12 Light W1 - - - - HE (light level)
>
> `HE', according to the table's key, means highest adjacent sector
>(exclusive of the tagged sector). Now, what "highest" means is lost to me
>*nudge*nudge*Matt*. It could be highest ceiling or highest floor, but then
>it should have a C or F in there. It might be the highest numbered sector.
I think it is the highest light level, Bob! What is unclear, is how
_adjacent_ is defined, because it does *not* mean physically adjacent.
>I think this wants a clarification in a future release of the specs.
Do you mean a future prerelease???? Is there any way I can get a look at
these prerelease specs (*nudge*nudge*Matt*)? Is the faulty blockmap
algorithm still there?
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: quinet@stud.montefiore.ulg.ac.be (Raphael Quinet)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 17:22:12 +0100
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, Chris Campbell (ME) wrote:
> It was just a thought....A nice thought I might add. After I started
> editing, I noticed that no editor (at least the ones I have used) have a
> copy or mirror command. This would be a very nice feature to implement.
You should try DEU. It has copy, rotate and scale functions. The mirror
(vertical and horizontal) functions were missing in DEU 5.21, but you
will have them in 5.3.
> About .DXF's....It is obvious that I don't know much about them.
If someone out there has some informations about the .DXF format or
a pointer to some FTP sites which contain a description of the format,
this would be worth posting here. I'm interested.
I don't have AutoCAD, so it would also be nice to provide some simple
files in .DXF format, for testing purposes (a square, two squares,
a few connected polygons, etc.).
The easiest way to convert these files into WADs would probably be to
convert them to .WIF first (remember the WIF specs by Tom Neff?) and
then use another program to create a WAD out of it. A minor hack of
IDBSP would be enough.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: David Shoemaker (B.E.S.T.) <a-bds@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 08:20:13 PST
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
There are a lot of translation programs for DXF to other things. These
are used for animation and ray tracing programs. It should be pretty
easy to figure out the format. The only problems with building a DXF
to WAD converter that I see are that there are so many things that
would have to be done to complete the wad. All those lines have to get
textured and mapped it would be a lot of work.
But on the other hand it would be kind of nice to grab a DXF of a deck
of the Enterprise and turn it into a wad. Then we just need some
graphics of Warf (or possibly Wesley) and let the fun commence :)
I will do some research on the DXF format file and see what I can come
up with. If someone who understood the WAD format a bit better was
able to come up with a set of desint defaults for what the lines should
be I think I can build a conversion util for the basic framework.
If interested contact me.
David
a-bds@microsoft.com
- ----------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
To: <doom-editing@nvg.unit.no>
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Date: Thursday, December 08, 1994 9:40PM
"Chris Campbell (ME)" <ccampbel@suntan.eng.usf.edu> ,in message <Pine.SUN.3.91.
941208185958.4268A-100000@suntan>, wrote:
> Hell if I know. I just thought it would be nice to be able to draw a map
> in AutoCAD and import it (via a .DXF file) into an editor. Since AutoCAD
> has all the copy/mirroring/everything commands, it makes it much easier
> to draw. I believe .DXF's are raster images.
Say, WHAT?! rasters? No fucking way. Extracting "information" from
raster images is a computer vision task, and while I belong to the Center
for Computer Vision and Visualization, I do not look forward to the task of
doing image understanding on something output by a commercial package.
I can almost guarantee that a CAD interchange format is NOT a raster. If
you're so hot on .DXF files, figure out their format for us :) Until then
I have to nail a bug in my topology analysis engine.
------------------------------
From: quinet@stud.montefiore.ulg.ac.be (Raphael Quinet)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 17:33:32 +0100
Subject: Re: WAD Editors... (non PC based?)
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, Kevin Way wrote:
> Linux deu and X-deu are finished! grab a copy off of
> bear.montefiore.ulg.ac.be /pub/doom or /pub/deu or something like that
> (it's a very small site, you'll find it easily)
Err... That's not totally true. DEU 5.21 for Linux is available from
my ftp server (ftp2.montefiore.ulg.ac.be), in /pub/doom/deu. But this
version uses SVGAlib, not X Window. Actually, there IS a X Window
version of DEU 5.21, but it is not available yet. It will be released
in two IDweeks (TM).
> There is also a working beta of Deu for OS/2, but a release date is
> unknown to me.... around 'two weeks' (C) iD Software 1993-1994.
There are several betas of DEU. For all of them, the expected release
date is: two IDweeks...
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: quinet@stud.montefiore.ulg.ac.be (Raphael Quinet)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 17:41:15 +0100
Subject: Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
On Fri, 09 Dec 1994, Robert Forsman wrote:
> line type 12 has this entry in the prerelease specs:
>
> 12 Light W1 - - - - HE (light level)
>
> `HE', according to the table's key, means highest adjacent sector
> (exclusive of the tagged sector). Now, what "highest" means is lost to me
> *nudge*nudge*Matt*. It could be highest ceiling or highest floor, but then
> it should have a C or F in there. It might be the highest numbered sector.
> I think this wants a clarification in a future release of the specs.
I think this is "the sector on the other side of the LineDef with
the highest number". This is also used by some "copy texture and
type" effects.
This is, by the way, one reason why DEU always preserves the order
of the LineDefs when you delete one of them. This is necessary
to ensure that such effects will not be destroyed by a re-ordering
of the LineDefs.
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: "S. McCrea" <sm@eng.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 16:56:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
Robert Forsman wrote:
> line type 12 has this entry in the prerelease specs:
>
> 12 Light W1 - - - - HE (light level)
>
> `HE', according to the table's key, means highest adjacent sector
> (exclusive of the tagged sector). Now, what "highest" means is lost to me
> *nudge*nudge*Matt*. It could be highest ceiling or highest floor, but then
> it should have a C or F in there. It might be the highest numbered sector.
> I think this wants a clarification in a future release of the specs.
>
Surely this means the brightest adjacent sector?
Forgive me Robert if this is the right answer but you were just acting dumb.:)
Steve
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 12:37:09 EST
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
David Shoemaker (B.E.S.T.) <a-bds@microsoft.com> ,in message <9412091623.AA1123
9@netmail2.microsoft.com>, wrote:
> There are a lot of translation programs for DXF to other things. These
> are used for animation and ray tracing programs. It should be pretty
> easy to figure out the format. The only problems with building a DXF
> to WAD converter that I see are that there are so many things that
> would have to be done to complete the wad. All those lines have to get
> textured and mapped it would be a lot of work.
Well, that work has to be done ANYWAY. Conversion from other formats
merely makes it easier to copy a layout from another program. In the
end this is saving work.
------------------------------
From: quinet@stud.montefiore.ulg.ac.be (Raphael Quinet)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 18:40:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, I wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Dec 1994, Robert Forsman wrote:
> > line type 12 has this entry in the prerelease specs:
> >
> > 12 Light W1 - - - - HE (light level)
> >
> > `HE', according to the table's key, means highest adjacent sector
> > (exclusive of the tagged sector). Now, what "highest" means is lost to me
> > *nudge*nudge*Matt*. It could be highest ceiling or highest floor, but then
> > it should have a C or F in there. It might be the highest numbered sector.
> > I think this wants a clarification in a future release of the specs.
>
> I think this is "the sector on the other side of the LineDef with
> the highest number". This is also used by some "copy texture and
> type" effects.
[...]
Well, maybe I was wrong. Maybe this means "the adjacent sector with
the highest light level" (see that lightbulb up there?). Who knows? :-)
Now you are confused, aren't you?
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: David Shoemaker (B.E.S.T.) <a-bds@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 09:44:20 PST
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
There are a lot of translation programs for DXF to other things. These
are used for animation and ray tracing programs. It should be pretty
easy to figure out the format. The only problems with building a DXF
to WAD converter that I see are that there are so many things that
would have to be done to complete the wad. All those lines have to get
textured and mapped it would be a lot of work.
But on the other hand it would be kind of nice to grab a DXF of a deck
of the Enterprise and turn it into a wad. Then we just need some
graphics of Warf (or possibly Wesley) and let the fun commence :)
I will do some research on the DXF format file and see what I can come
up with. If someone who understood the WAD format a bit better was
able to come up with a set of desint defaults for what the lines should
be I think I can build a conversion util for the basic framework.
If interested contact me.
If you want to find docs on the format of the DXF look on
Avalon.chinalake.navy.mil under /pub/graphics (I think). There are
specs and conversion util sources for lots of stuff relateing to DXF files.
David
a-bds@microsoft.com
- ----------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
To: <doom-editing@nvg.unit.no>
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
Date: Thursday, December 08, 1994 9:40PM
"Chris Campbell (ME)" <ccampbel@suntan.eng.usf.edu> ,in message <Pine.SUN.3.91.
941208185958.4268A-100000@suntan>, wrote:
> Hell if I know. I just thought it would be nice to be able to draw a map
> in AutoCAD and import it (via a .DXF file) into an editor. Since AutoCAD
> has all the copy/mirroring/everything commands, it makes it much easier
> to draw. I believe .DXF's are raster images.
Say, WHAT?! rasters? No fucking way. Extracting "information" from
raster images is a computer vision task, and while I belong to the Center
for Computer Vision and Visualization, I do not look forward to the task of
doing image understanding on something output by a commercial package.
I can almost guarantee that a CAD interchange format is NOT a raster. If
you're so hot on .DXF files, figure out their format for us :) Until then
I have to nail a bug in my topology analysis engine.
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 13:18:20 EST
Subject: Re: Lighting level triggers: tips for authors
quinet@stud.montefiore.ulg.ac.be (Raphael Quinet) ,in message <199412091740.SAA
04640@bear.montefiore.ulg.ac.be>, wrote:
> Well, maybe I was wrong. Maybe this means "the adjacent sector with
> the highest light level" (see that lightbulb up there?). Who knows? :-)
>
> Now you are confused, aren't you?
No. I'm just waiting for someone to perform an experiment. I'm still
deep in topological analysis code.
A feature that I would like to see in editors is a "secondary tagmatch"
highlight. This would highlight the second sector for the "donut linedef"
#9, and the affected sectors in a staircase sequence, and highlight the
source of the new light level in the case of #12. Of course, it would be
pretty annoying to have the algorithms wrong.
------------------------------
From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 17:51:00 -0500
Subject: Re: .DXF and .DWG files
DO>Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.941208223251.12768A-100000@suntan>
DO>It was just a thought....A nice thought I might add. After I started
DO>editing, I noticed that no editor (at least the ones I have used) have a
DO>copy or mirror command. This would be a very nice feature to implement.
DoomCAD has both a copy AND a mirror command.
matt tagliaferri
- ---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Taxation WITH representation isn't so hot either
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------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #81
*********************************
