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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 077
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #77
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Wednesday, 7 December 1994 Volume 01 : Number 077
jumping
How far apart for linedefs?
# of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack
Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack + the ultimate wishlist
Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack + the ultimate wishlist
Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack + the ultimate wishlist
Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtra
Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtra
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Matthew Ayres <ayres@cdrom.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 94 17:26:28 -0800
Subject: jumping
>
>JUMP.WAD - Test for finding maximum jump.
>
>This wad is a test to find the maximum jump across a gap.
>If you fall in the hole you can transport back to the starting
>point. When you start E1M1 you are at the maximum gap
>of 17x8=136 units. From left to right the the gaps are:
>
>
>
> 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2
> ^
> |
> Max 17x8=136
>
>
>Can anyone confirm the max. jump is 136 units?
>
>
>Mark Mathews mark.mathews@channel1.com
>
It's possible to do the 22 gap by running diagonal (run forward and
strafe at the same time). The 22 is a little difficult. 21 and below
are easy. I doubt 23 can be done. JUMP.LMP is a recording of me making
the 22 jump. Using JUMP.WAD and DOOM v1.666.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Matthew Ayres, a.k.a. White Fang -Author WADED, a DOOM map editor
-SysOp Lithium BBS, 510-455-0425 -Diagnosed with DOOMophobia, the
-Email: ayres@cdrom.com fear of not playing DOOM enough
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
begin 644 jump_lmp.zip
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M`!0``@`(`"]VA1T=/\<14`(``+\$```(``````````$`(````"T!``!*54U0
:+E185%!+!08``````@`"`&P```"C`P``````
`
end
------------------------------
From: DTeeter@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:26:51 -0500
Subject: How far apart for linedefs?
>How far apart should linedefs be so they don't interfere with
>each other?
I actualy put two vertices (and the connected linedefs) of two different
sectors directly on top of each other and it worked. I am using Doomcad 4.3
and BSP12X.
One of the sectors had its floor at 180 and ceiling at 180, the other sector
had its floor at 0 and its ceiling at 128.
I also tried building this same wad with IDBSP but nearest line defs in the
"wall below" sector turned transparent.
dteeter@aol.com (Dan Teeter)
------------------------------
From: cant@softchoice.com (Christian Antkow)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 94 00:10:00 -0800
Subject: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
I'm presently working on the sixth level in my FOURPLAY series of
deathmatch levels, and I know this has been discussed in the past,
I seem to recall the number of line defs in the players line of sight being
somewhere around 256 before HOM starts setting in...
Can anyone confirm/deny this...
I've got a nasty HOM on a far wall across a courtyard when viewing it
from a certain window.
I can upload a copy of my WIP (WAD in Progress) and see if you can figure
out the problem...
Thanx...
- --
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Christian Antkow cant@softchoice.com
Opinions are my own and in no way reflect those of the SoftChoice Corporation
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 94 11:11:10 GMT
Subject: Weekly reminder: beginners' questions
This message is being posted at the request of the list caretaker:
The purpose of this list is to discuss *advanced* DOOM editing techniques.
In order to keep it that way, if you have a question but don't know whether
it's advanced or not, mail it in the first instance to:
Steve Benner : S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk
Your question will either be answered or, if deemed suitable, forwarded to
the list. This is offered as a potential red-face saving and
list-annoyance abatement service. Feel free to send questions at any level
on any topic of WAD editing. If your questions are prefixed with the code
WQ: (for 'WAD query') in the subject field (e.g. Subject: WQ: Sprites),
they will be processed quicker.
This reminder will be posted here weekly, with the same subject title.
==
- -Steve : also, check out http://cres1.lancs.ac.uk/~esasb1/doom/index.html
(nothing new there this week - sorry)
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 94 12:08:50 GMT
Subject: Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
> I'm presently working on the sixth level in my FOURPLAY series of
>deathmatch levels, and I know this has been discussed in the past,
>I seem to recall the number of line defs in the players line of sight being
>somewhere around 256 before HOM starts setting in...
>
> Can anyone confirm/deny this...
There is a limit of 256 *faces* in view at a time in DOOM 1.4 onwards (128
on earlier versions). Note that this is only partly related to the number
of lines. A pillar cutting into the view of a wall, for instance, will
turn the wall into 2 wall segment (as well as contributing its own faces to
the count). Staircases generate lots of faces and are one of the biggest
contributors to this edges overload effect. It is very hard to actually
reckon up how many you have in view at a time, but it soon adds up, believe
me.
>
> I've got a nasty HOM on a far wall across a courtyard when viewing it
>from a certain window.
That sounds like face (or edge) overload: it tends to hit "far" walls. It
seems that DOOM just stops painting faces after it's done 256. This leaves
a hole that produces hom.
>
> I can upload a copy of my WIP (WAD in Progress) and see if you can figure
>out the problem...
If you want to UUEncode it and send me copy, I'll have a look at it for
you. Please position Player 1 start close to the problem so that I don't
waste time hunting for it. Don't bother mailing to the whole list though,
unless there's a general clammering for it... [open invitation for
clammering to begin here]
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: "C. Sheldon" <sheldonc@acy.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 08:15:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Ryan Drake wrote:
> Does anyone know if I can find a ZIP file with MIDI versions of all the
> music in Doom ][ ? I'd like it to add to my collection. A MIDI Doom
> soundtrack would be great!
>
>
> ~~~\ ~~\ ~~\ ~\ ~\ r t d 1 1 4 @ p s u v m . p s u . e d u
> ~\ ~\ ~\ ~\ ~\ ~\ ~~ ~~\ -I just found the plsma rifle.-
> ~\ ~\ ~\ ~\ ~\ ~\ ~\~\~\ =Oh yea?=
> ~~~\ ~~\ ~~\ ~\ ~\ -Turn around and I'll show you.-
>
There's a utility out, by just_joe from irc, called mus2mid ,
that ripps music from Doom/doom][ and converts it to midi, the file is
available on ftp.orst.edu I believe.
Later Days,
Cliff Sheldon
AKA: DrWu
------------------------------
From: Stanley Stasiak <stan@yarrow.wt.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:39:26 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
>
> I'm presently working on the sixth level in my FOURPLAY series of
> deathmatch levels, and I know this has been discussed in the past,
> I seem to recall the number of line defs in the players line of sight being
> somewhere around 256 before HOM starts setting in...
>
> Can anyone confirm/deny this...
>
> I've got a nasty HOM on a far wall across a courtyard when viewing it
> from a certain window.
This reminds me of another consideration. Not only does one need to check
static level design for HOM + visplane overflows... but more importnatly
a level may crash if say you flip a switch that opens a door and
reveals a detailed room.... even more so if you play dm and someone else
opens a door far away that normally would be closed if you opened it and
ran back...
This makes testing wads for those errors particularly hard since some
will only occur in multi player mode.
Stan.
------------------------------
From: Crew.Jim@uniface.nl (Jim Crew)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 94 14:59:01 +0100
Subject: Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack + the ultimate wishlist
Hi Y'all,
> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Ryan Drake wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know if I can find a ZIP file with MIDI versions of all the
> > music in Doom ][ ? I'd like it to add to my collection. A MIDI Doom
> > soundtrack would be great!
> There's a utility out, by just_joe from irc, called mus2mid ,
> that ripps music from Doom/doom][ and converts it to midi, the file is
> available on ftp.orst.edu I believe.
- -- I checked out ftp.orst.edu, but I couldn't find mus2mid. If anyone
knows where it really is, can they e-mail me or the list with its
*location*. As for the original question, try ftp.orst.edu,
/pub/doom/music/doomidi.zip, which is supposed to be all the Doom
music in General Midi format.
To start a new thread, has anyone made a list of what features the
ultimate editor should have? Sort of like the ultimate wish-list?
Hope this helps,
jim.c
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 1994 09:53:30 EST
Subject: Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
cant@softchoice.com (Christian Antkow) ,in message <oI-4uAgOBh107h@softchoice.c
om>, wrote:
> I'm presently working on the sixth level in my FOURPLAY series of
> deathmatch levels, and I know this has been discussed in the past,
> I seem to recall the number of line defs in the players line of sight being
> somewhere around 256 before HOM starts setting in...
>
> Can anyone confirm/deny this...
No, but I can muddy the waters. We know that placing a pillar in front of
long lines can trigger the error before 128/256. A friend of mine wondered
if it could be the SEGS that are limited...
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 94 15:26:10 GMT
Subject: Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
>cant@softchoice.com (Christian Antkow) ,in message <oI-4uAgOBh107h@softchoice.c
> om>, wrote:
>
>> I'm presently working on the sixth level in my FOURPLAY series of
>> deathmatch levels, and I know this has been discussed in the past,
>> I seem to recall the number of line defs in the players line of sight being
>> somewhere around 256 before HOM starts setting in...
>>
>> Can anyone confirm/deny this...
>
> No, but I can muddy the waters. We know that placing a pillar in front of
>long lines can trigger the error before 128/256. A friend of mine wondered
>if it could be the SEGS that are limited...
I think it's simply visible polygons: a pillar in front of a wall will
split the wall into two polygons. DOOM presumably has to keep track of
these for its display. As I think I've mentioned here before, I have a WAD
with a large open room with a large (and high) central circular platform.
I have a self-rising stairway that runs around the central platform. Homs
only start in this wad after the central stairway has been activated, which
makes me think that while it's part of the floor (and doesn't look any
different from it) it is regarded as just part of the floor polygon. Once
its activated, all sorts of walls hom like mad: suddenly loads more
polygons in view: but no more lines than there were before. Anyone?
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: tedv@geom.umn.edu
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 94 13:02:02 CST
Subject: Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack + the ultimate wishlist
> > There's a utility out, by just_joe from irc, called mus2mid ,
> > that ripps music from Doom/doom][ and converts it to midi, the file is
> > available on ftp.orst.edu I believe.
>
> -- I checked out ftp.orst.edu, but I couldn't find mus2mid. If anyone
> knows where it really is, can they e-mail me or the list with its
> *location*. As for the original question, try ftp.orst.edu,
> /pub/doom/music/doomidi.zip, which is supposed to be all the Doom
> music in General Midi format.
I also found nothing. But I couldn't find doomidi.zip either, strangely
enough. Was it possibly moved/deleted?
> To start a new thread, has anyone made a list of what features the
> ultimate editor should have? Sort of like the ultimate wish-list?
It would eactly like DEU 5.3, except it would be out right now and bug free.
:) *Ahem* Sorry, couldn't resist
- -Ted
- --
Ted Vessenes | "The only force stronger than fate is dramatic irony."
tedv@geom.umn.edu | "[William] Shatner couldn't direct his way out of the
tedv@cs.umn.edu | bathroom with both hands and a map!"
tjvessen@midway.uchicago.edu -Ryan Ingram (1st), -Kibo's .sig (2nd)
------------------------------
From: Mike Drechsler <mdrechsl@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 12:32:12 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtrack + the ultimate wishlist
> To start a new thread, has anyone made a list of what features the
> ultimate editor should have? Sort of like the ultimate wish-list?
>
I think the bigest wish (for me at least) is a 3d preview mode. Some way
to see what it's going to look like. One problem I frequently have is
getting a sense of scale from my editors. I have no idea if a room is
really big or really small just by looking at it in the editor. I
usually roughly sketch the rooms I want to make and run it to see what
the sizes look like.
Also another wish, Really good texture alignment which is tied to the 3d
preview so I can see what it looks like. Maybe the 3d preview can be
just blank walls for speed but with the option to smack a key and the
current view would become beautifully rendered with textures.
Better error checking. I bet it would be nearly impossible but if the
editor could check before hand for conditions that might cause HOM that
would save tons of time in debugging.
More transparent use of Vertices. Make it so you could just use a
toolbox like the standard paint tool list on most illustration programs
on mac or windows. Instead of plunking down vertices and connecting them
separately. I know this is implemented to some effect but if it was more
transparent initially that would be great.
Texture pallets, make a nice floating window which would show a scroll
list of textures and a small preview which is a window on the editing screen.
Basically I have one general theme to all this. Make it more detached
from the actual WAD structure and more like an illustration/design
program. Anything which would save time especially from replacing the
need to run doom to check your level out would be good.
- -- Mike Drechsler | "Anarchy may not be the best form
Computing Science | of government, but it's better
University of Alberta | than no government at all."
------------------------------
From: doomedit@softchoice.com (Doom-Editing Mail List)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 94 14:24:10 -0800
Subject: Re: # of Linedefs in view... (Ya I know...RTFM...)
In <16580.9412061526@cent1.lancs.ac.uk> S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner) writes:
>>cant@softchoice.com (Christian Antkow) ,in message <oI-4uAgOBh107h@softchoice.c
>> om>, wrote:
>>
>>> I'm presently working on the sixth level in my FOURPLAY series of
>>> deathmatch levels, and I know this has been discussed in the past,
>>> I seem to recall the number of line defs in the players line of sight being
>>> somewhere around 256 before HOM starts setting in...
>>>
>>> Can anyone confirm/deny this...
>>
>> No, but I can muddy the waters. We know that placing a pillar in front of
>>long lines can trigger the error before 128/256. A friend of mine wondered
>>if it could be the SEGS that are limited...
>I think it's simply visible polygons: a pillar in front of a wall will
>split the wall into two polygons. DOOM presumably has to keep track of
>these for its display. As I think I've mentioned here before, I have a WAD
>with a large open room with a large (and high) central circular platform.
>I have a self-rising stairway that runs around the central platform. Homs
>only start in this wad after the central stairway has been activated, which
>makes me think that while it's part of the floor (and doesn't look any
>different from it) it is regarded as just part of the floor polygon. Once
>its activated, all sorts of walls hom like mad: suddenly loads more
>polygons in view: but no more lines than there were before. Anyone?
Actually, that's almost exactly my problem.
In the centre of the courtyard there is a HUGE spiral staircase with a rocket
launcher at the top. The spiral staircase circles about 5 times before it gets
to the top and it's made up of oodles of sectors.
(Yeesh! Maybe I should just upload it.. Hrmph) When I'm close to the staircase
looking around, everything's fine. No HOM when I look around, but when I sit in a
corner of the courtyard, looking at the staircase and the windows beyond it
with sectors behind the windows, well, you get the picture.. I think this is a
classic case of 256 linedefs in line of sight "non-feature".
Really pisses me off that the engine can't draw what I want it to draw...
Oh well, A chopping and hiding sectors I go...
Here's something else... What if I put a texture on the side of the window
looking from the courtyard into the hallways behind it whereby effectively
blocking the view from one side of the window... Would this work...
(View-out-but-cant-view-in Window???) A testing I will go...
------------------------------
From: matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 1994 17:51:00 -0500
Subject: Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtra
DO>-ID: <Pine.3.87.9412061212.A76942-0100000@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca>
DO>> To start a new thread, has anyone made a list of what features the
DO>> ultimate editor should have? Sort of like the ultimate wish-list?
DO>>
DO>I think the bigest wish (for me at least) is a 3d preview mode. Some way
DO>to see what it's going to look like. One problem I frequently have is
DO>getting a sense of scale from my editors. I have no idea if a room is
DO>really big or really small just by looking at it in the editor. I
DO>usually roughly sketch the rooms I want to make and run it to see what
DO>the sizes look like.
If one could write such a mode, he's probably writing his own Doom-like game,
not just an editor for an exisiting one! :)
DO>Better error checking. I bet it would be nearly impossible but if the
DO>editor could check before hand for conditions that might cause HOM that
DO>would save tons of time in debugging.
DoomCAD finds MOST HOM errors, except for the ones 'behind' a rising
or falling sector.
DO>Texture pallets, make a nice floating window which would show a scroll
DO>list of textures and a small preview which is a window on the editing screen.
WadView, a new program in the DoomCAD ZIP, is a nice texture/sprite/flat/sound
previewer/exporter. The next version of DoomCAD will have the editor itself
and this program talking to each other, so one can click on a texture name in
DoomCAD and see it in WadView.
DO>Basically I have one general theme to all this. Make it more detached
DO>from the actual WAD structure and more like an illustration/design
DO>program. Anything which would save time especially from replacing the
DO>need to run doom to check your level out would be good.
All good ideas. This was exactly my goal in creating DoomCAD: an
illustration/design tool that didn't require one to be a WAD expert
to use the program.
matt tag
PS: As usual, my first release of a major upgrade is as buggy as hell.
DoomCAD 5.0 has some critical bugs: look for 5.1 soon.
- ---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Taxation WITH representation isn't so hot either
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
PC-Ohio PCBoard PO Box 21411
The Best BBS in America South Euclid OH 44121
DATA: 216-381-3320 pcohio.com FAX: 216-291-2685
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Matthew Ayres <ayres@cdrom.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 94 16:10:50 -0800
Subject: Re: DOOM ][ MIDI Soundtra
matt.tagliaferri@pcohio.com (Matt Tagliaferri) said...
>PS: As usual, my first release of a major upgrade is as buggy as hell.
>DoomCAD 5.0 has some critical bugs: look for 5.1 soon.
Yet another Murphy's Law that we all hate.
-Matt A.
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #77
*********************************
