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Doom Editing Digest Vol. 01 Nr. 057
From: owner-doom-editing-digest
To: doom-editing-digest@nvg.unit.no
Subject: doom-editing-digest V1 #57
Reply-To: doom-editing
Errors-To: owner-doom-editing-digest
Precedence: bulk
doom-editing-digest Thursday, 17 November 1994 Volume 01 : Number 057
Re: Q: Animated switches
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: "missing textures" PWADs
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Hacking the doom.exe file
Including textures in WADs
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Hacking the doom.exe file
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Re: Hacking the doom.exe file
Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cgasparo@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 00:45:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Q: Animated switches
>Now wait. First off, not to be nit-picky, but I came up with the
>animated switch idea. I really doubt you can have a 5frame switch since
>sandwhiching in frames doesn't work for switches. For instance, in my
>deutex file, I have all the sw1s in a "switch" switch section. Some
>of the sw2 are further down in my file with the animated textures.
>If you could sandwhich animations between sw textures, I would have
>seen something screwy by now.
>
>brian
Bravely said my friend!
Hey all, since we are on the topic of animated switches, is there a site
that contains logs of the list? I've been retaining copies of the list
to use against you all at a... oops. Ummm... Seriously, I've been
retaining copies to use as reference, but so far I haven't once refered
to them and they are taking up a good deal of space in zipped mbox
files. A site where I could go and find them would allow me to free up
around 2-3 megs of messages from this list. Anyone?
Steve H.B.
------------------------------
From: " (Christian Gran)" <gran@mikro.ee.tu-berlin.d400.de>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:08:49 +0100
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
SO what ?
ID faked us - they told us that every PWAD from Doom1 will run with Doom2.
They have to put in the missing textures in a patch - or they cannot state
that it is illegal to create an addon like Doom1-2.
ID faked us also when they stated that they give us the wad-specifications.
Where are they ??
I can only find some illegal specs (inofficial ???) !
Ciao
Chris
------------------------------
From: quinet@stud.montefiore.ulg.ac.be (Raphael Quinet)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:04:56 +0100
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
> Ok, I can see how you get that from his message. However, if that's the
> case, then why did Raphael say they were releasing another version that
> didn't have the original DOOM textures?
Because that's what Olivier told me. :-)
Actually, things would have been easier to understand if I had quoted
Olivier's message in whole. Since a part of it is in french, it is
useless for most of you. But here is the important part: the question
that was asked to Jay Wilbur, followed by his answer. With the answer
AND the question, it will be easier for you to understand why Olivier
tought that he had to remove the Doom textures from the WAD:
- ----- begin included message -----
Date: 15 Nov 94 01:29:48-0500
From: Jay Wilbur <72600.1333@compuserve.com>
To: help@idcube.idsoftware.com, montanuy@lannion.cnet.fr
Subject: Copyright infringement? Alien-TC for DOO
Message-Id: <941115062651_72600.1333_DHE32-9@CompuServe.COM>
>> Can you confirm that you allow us to distribute those copyrighted textures
with Alien-TC, which is a free patch? <<
No.
In fact I want nothing to do with the Alien's patch. Have you guys talked to
20th Century Fox about this? I am sure they are not happy and I suggest you
call them and getting a release before shipping.
- ----- end included message -----
Olivier told me that I should distribute this message, so now you have it...
- -Raphael
------------------------------
From: rrward@netcom.com (Richard Ward)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 04:19:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
I'm still lost. So, is it legal to send out DOOM 1 textures in a WAD aimed at
DOOM ][? And another related question: Is it legal to send out reworked DOOM
textures in a WAD file? I'm working on some custom textures based (some of
them) on DOOM ][ textures (for a DOOM ][ WAD) and I'd like to know so I can
abandon them if I have to before I have devoted too much time to them.
Richard
------------------------------
From: Bernd Kreimeier (++49-228-550-247) <Bernd.Kreimeier@nero.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:02:57 +0100
Subject: Re: "missing textures" PWADs
>Christian Gran wrote:
> ID faked us - they told us that every PWAD from Doom1 will run with Doom2.
They owe us nothing.
Nevertheless it would be nice to have some official word on wether they had
removed those textures intentionally ;-).
> They have to put in the missing textures in a patch - or they cannot state
> that it is illegal to create an addon like Doom1-2.
They don't have to do anything. It would be nice, though.
As far as copyright is concerned, they are are forced to object. In some
aspects copyright is a matter of "use (read: defend) it or loose it". If
they are allowing somebody else to distribute their copyrighted property,
they would take a risk. They won't, even if this "missing textures" bug
happend by accident.
> ID faked us also when they stated that they give us the wad-specifications.
> Where are they ??
That's an interesting point. I've been told (some months ago :-) they still
intend to release those ODS. If, I wouldn't expect any ODS until march 1994.
It's a way to keep DOOM alive, while working on QUAKE, I guess.
> I can only find some illegal specs (inofficial ???) !
It would be nice and easy to make the UDS "official" and providing only
missing information. Bet they won't.
Haven't seen anything official on either, though.
> Richard Ward wrote:
> So, is it legal to send out DOOM 1 textures in a WAD aimed at DOOM ][?
> And another related question: Is it legal to send out reworked DOOM
> textures in a WAD file?
Without permission, copyright on derivative works depends. This involves
laws and lawyers, and I won't take a risk.
The won't give permission.
Conclusion: Nope, I guess.
Remembering all those Mikey Mouse, StarWars and now Aliens copyright
infringement discussions, let me remind you that there is *no need*
to use anything owned by large companies paying for lots of bored
lawyers. We don't have to use the DOOM "story", the ALIENS plot, or names,
trademarks and "troopers" from StarWars.
If you are already doing your own graphics, sounds, textures and maps,
invent your own background, write your own plot, use your own names and
places. Lots of WAD Designers have done this. It works. Even if everything
is happening "in one of the familiar Hollywood caves" ;-).
B.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernd Kreimeier THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY
bernd@nero.uni-bonn.de LEFT BLANK ...
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: S.Benner@lancaster.ac.uk (Steve Benner)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 13:11:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
>I'm still lost. So, is it legal to send out DOOM 1 textures in a WAD aimed at
>DOOM ][?
Technically, no it's not. You are 'stealing' something that belongs to id.
But the question you should be asking (as was said here some time ago, I
believe) is really: "will I be done for it". The answer is probably "no" -
unless id sees you making loads of money doing it, whereupon they will
probably ask you for a slice before they start litigation. (That's what I'd
do, anyway.)
>And another related question: Is it legal to send out reworked DOOM
>textures in a WAD file? I'm working on some custom textures based (some of
>them) on DOOM ][ textures (for a DOOM ][ WAD) and I'd like to know so I can
>abandon them if I have to before I have devoted too much time to them.
When is a id-texture-based custom job a rip-off and when is it something
new? How much do you need to change before it's no longer a DOOM texture?
Who knows - it sounds like expensive litigation resolving it to me!
I suggest you ask Jay Wilbur each time you think of doing these things
(within reason): the precise answer that comes from id in response to any
particular request will probably depend upon *precisely* what you're
contemplating. As I discussed yesterday, if there are complications with
other people's copyrights, id have no option to say "no" the the package as
a *whole*. Obviously, with something like aliens-TC, for example, you'd
destroy the whole point if you took all the Aliens(TM) stuff out -- whether
or not you can distribute the textures then becomes totally irrelevant.
Just be sensible: look at what you're doing objectively and try to decide
whether any-one else anywhere could justifiably say you're stealing their
intellectual property (whether or not you're making any money out of it is
irrelevant. They may *think* that you're depriving them of something:
money, credit, whatever). If you think they might, then ask them whether
it's ok. You shouldn't be thinking of it as a case of legality but one of
politeness.
Just be grateful for id's (relative) openness. Remember that Nintendo
charge royalties if you so much as *program* their kit!
- -Steve
------------------------------
From: quinet@stud.montefiore.ulg.ac.be (Raphael Quinet)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:31:00 +0100
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
> SO what ?
> ID faked us - they told us that every PWAD from Doom1 will run with Doom2.
I don't remember having read anything like that. Maybe they said so, but
I never read such a statement coming from Id.
> They have to put in the missing textures in a patch - or they cannot state
> that it is illegal to create an addon like Doom1-2.
Why? The textures, like everything else in the DOOM.WAD file, are
copyrighted material. That's their own work. You cannot copy it
if they didn't allow you to do so. Copying the textures is just like
pirating the game: it's illegal, because you cannot copy copyrighted
work. That's why I would like to get a clear statement from Id about
that. John, are you still reading this list? Jay, maybe?
It's possible that Id Software did not include several textures in
Doom II becasue they want people to buy Doom 1 for playing with WADs
written for Doom 1. I could perfectly understand that. After all,
Id is a commercial company.
> ID faked us also when they stated that they give us the wad-specifications.
They didn't give the full WAD specifications, but John Romero posted
several helpful messages. He also posted a list of LineDefs and Sectors
types for Doom 1.666. They released the sources for their BSP builder
and the format of the network game packets. Do you know any other
company which did that?
> Where are they ??
finger help@idsoftware.com or call 1-800-IDGAMES :-)
> I can only find some illegal specs (inofficial ???) !
They are unofficial because they weren't released by Id Software, even if
some bits of info were taken from John Romero's messages. Much of this
info was found by hackers who spent some time experimenting with the Doom
data structures. I was glad to help Matt Fell with what I found. Lots
of people have contributed to this.
The Specs from Matt Fell are unofficial, but not illegal. At least, Id
Software never complained.
- -Raphael
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Finger: finger quinet@finger.montefiore.ulg.ac.be for some useless info. |
| Mosaic: http://www.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~quinet (NEW: preview of DEU 5.3) |
| E-mail: eedraq@chapelle.ericsson.se or quinet@montefiore.ulg.ac.be |
| S-mail: Raphael Quinet, 9 rue des Martyrs, 4550 Nandrin (Belgium) |
| or: Raphael Quinet, Kapuzinergraben 2, 52062 Aachen (Germany) |
| --* Send your questions about DEU to: Deu_Help@boblab1.bobst.nyu.edu *-- |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
From: grieser@esn102.scra.org (Robert Griesemer)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 08:38:33 EST
Subject: Hacking the doom.exe file
Greetings all, I just joined the list since I have become interested in
editing Doom after I downloaded dehacker with it's super weapons patch.
The super weapons and unlimited ammo are great but after using it for awhile
and killing everything in sight with ease it became too great. It got
boring to be so powerful, if you can believe that!
Anyway, I wanted to create a modification to the super weapons to slow
down the firing rate but I couldn't find anything in dehacker that would do
that. All I could find were the settings for ammo amounts.
It made reference to doom specs which I looked for but could only find a
copy dated back in April. I found a copy of a paper by the same author
about hacking the doom.exe file but it was current as of ver 1.2 and neither
of them even mentioned firing rates of weapons.
How did that super weapons patch speed up the weapons? and
Are there any more current versions of hacking doom.exe and the doom specs
and if so, where can I find them?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
------------------------------
From: "S. McCrea" <sm@eng.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:49:06 GMT
Subject: Including textures in WADs
I don't know what the official iD line on this is, but if I were them I'd
be very pissed off with anyone who included stuff in their WAD which isn't
available in the shareware version of Doom I. With a bit of patience it
would be perfectly possible to piece together everything but the maps
from what was meant to be non-shareware. Then anyone could play Doom II
PWADs.
Textures in Doom I but not Doom II - tough. Find a similar replacement in
Doom II (surely there must be something similar) or draw up your own -
it's not that hard in a lot of cases.
As for modified textures, I recommend painting out all the bits that are
unchanged and using what's left as a patch to place on the original
texture. Neater, smaller, friendlier. Get deutex today! If the texture is
heavily modified (unrecognisable) then I doubt there's a problem using
it.
Steve.
------------------------------
From: "S. McCrea" <sm@eng.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:28:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Raphael said:
> It's possible that Id Software did not include several textures in
> Doom II becasue they want people to buy Doom 1 for playing with WADs
> written for Doom 1. I could perfectly understand that. After all,
> Id is a commercial company.
>
Let's not judge too harshly here. Maybe iD didn't include those textures
because they wanted to give us something NEW for our money, without
making the IWAD too big. Whaddaya think?
Steve.
------------------------------
From: brian@phyast.pitt.edu (Brian K. Martin)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:09:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Hacking the doom.exe file
>
> How did that super weapons patch speed up the weapons? and
> Are there any more current versions of hacking doom.exe and the doom specs
> and if so, where can I find them?
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
>
Well, There is a document that comes with dehacked (the new one atleast)
called 'fun with dehacked' and it explains all this stuff. Skip frames
and shorten the duration is basically the thing to do to make things faster.
reverse to make them slower. Just remember that most every 'action' type of
thing can be handled by playing with the frames and the frame table.
brian
------------------------------
From: mark.mathews@channel1.com (Mark Mathews)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:35:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
- -> I'm still lost. So, is it legal to send out DOOM 1 textures in a WAD
- -> aimed at
Oh, I see. Most wads reference textures to the DOOM(2).WAD. But you
can't extract textures from DOOM(2).WAD and include it WITH your wad
file. Is that right? If thats the case then its ok to have an install
that rebuilds a wad by extracting the textures from DOOM(2).WAD and
inserting them into the new wad? Example ALIEN_TC.ZIP.
Mark Mathews
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:35:44 EST
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
mark.mathews@channel1.com (Mark Mathews) ,in message <40.640902.700@channel1.co
m>, wrote:
> If thats the case then its ok to have an install
> that rebuilds a wad by extracting the textures from DOOM(2).WAD and
> inserting them into the new wad? Example ALIEN_TC.ZIP.
Why not just create a separate wad file with the extracted/merged textures.
It's simpler that way, and doesn't modify any of the "original" files.
------------------------------
From: nelson@post.ces.cwru.edu (Brian Nelson)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 12:31:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
Here's a thought I had while reading all my mail today.
I'm sure someone had to have thought of this before:
Why not distibute a program to compensate for the missing textures by
ripping them from your DOOM1 IWAD and patching the PWAD locally?
Only problem is people that only have DOOM2 and not the original won't
have access to those textures at all.. Hrm.
Only other solution I could think of would be for someone to create a
WAD like Doom1-2 that has all original textures in it (original as in
made by someone other than ID) that still look good enough to be playable
as they were originally intended.
Just a thought. (or two)
- --
Brian Nelson nelson@cthulhu.ces.cwru.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is just sudden death overtime and the clock is running.
It's not whether you win or lose, it's whether you win.
If you're not living life on the edge, you're just wasting space.
It can't be one man's obsession if it's not another man's posession.
If we're keeping score, winning -is- the only thing.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: mark.mathews@channel1.com (Mark Mathews)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:01:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
- -> > If thats the case then its ok to have an install
- -> > that rebuilds a "separate" wad by extracting the textures from
^ Thats what I meant. Sorry about that.
- -> > DOOM(2).WAD and inserting them into the new wad? Example
- -> > ALIEN_TC.ZIP.
- -> Why not just create a separate wad file with the extracted/merged
- -> textures. It's simpler that way, and doesn't modify any of the
- -> "original" files.
Thats what ALIEN_TC does and it doesn't tocuh the DOOM(2).WADS.
Mark
------------------------------
From: John Wakelin <johnw@datametrics.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 13:33:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
>
> SO what ?
> ID faked us - they told us that every PWAD from Doom1 will run with Doom2.
> They have to put in the missing textures in a patch - or they cannot state
> that it is illegal to create an addon like Doom1-2.
> ID faked us also when they stated that they give us the wad-specifications.
> Where are they ??
> I can only find some illegal specs (inofficial ???) !
> Ciao
> Chris
Sorry bout this but I can't stand here (sit?) and just let this one
go by.
1. ID does not owe you me or anyone anything, no matter what they
said. If you paid them money for something they did not deliver,
then by all means bitch, but untill then, take what you can get.
2. With one word Jay could turn all of us from ingrateful coat-tail
riders into criminals. If ID had a license like my company has for
our software, even looking at one savegame file with a bianary editor
could put us in a libel position.
3. ID has been more generous than I have ever known ANY company to
be. I have received more personal pleasure from spending < $100 on
DOOMI and DOOM][ than I think any other purchase in my life. I have
literally thousands of dollars worth of games sitting in my house
that combined don't come close to what ID has provided me.
4. I for one am looking forward to what ID has in store for us in
the future, and I hope this spirit of openness is allowed to
continue. I can't help but feel that ID will at some point see us as
a group of ingratefull pains in the ass and pull the plug on the
whole thing if attitudes like this are allowed to propagate. I agree
that we tend to give the game legs and ID is getting benefit from the
relationship but it may eventually become more of a bother than it's
worth.
I will put my soapbox away now and crawl back into my cave, again sorry to
use up bandwidth for this but I needed a good scream.
Have a good day,
John
__________________________________________________________
John Wakelin | johnw@datametrics.com
Datametrics Systems Corp. | Ph. 703 385 7700 x341
12150 East Monument Dr. Ste 300 | Fax 703 385 7711
Fairfax, VA. 22033 USA |
------------------------------
From: Greg Lewis <gregl@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:04:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Hacking the doom.exe file
> Greetings all, I just joined the list since I have become interested in
> editing Doom after I downloaded dehacker with it's super weapons patch.
> The super weapons and unlimited ammo are great but after using it for awhile
> and killing everything in sight with ease it became too great. It got
> boring to be so powerful, if you can believe that!
Try taking the monster's hitpoints x10 also, and then play coop on
nightmare and see how far you get. A friend and I have tried it, and
it's, well, carnage!
> How did that super weapons patch speed up the weapons? and
> Are there any more current versions of hacking doom.exe and the doom specs
> and if so, where can I find them?
Hit F3 to go to the Frame table. The weapon frames are the first 120
or so that are listed. The easiest way to speed the weapons up is to
drop the duration to 1 for every frame. Another slightly trickier trick
is to toally skip a few of the frames (change the Next Frame column), but
if you change the wrong one Doom will eventually freeze up. Have fun!
Greg ("Tree")
Author, DeHackEd
------------------------------
From: Robert Forsman <thoth@cis.ufl.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:18:35 EST
Subject: Re: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
nelson@post.ces.cwru.edu (Brian Nelson) ,in message <9411171731.AA29551@post.ce
s.cwru.edu>, wrote:
> Why not distibute a program to compensate for the missing textures by
> ripping them from your DOOM1 IWAD and patching the PWAD locally?
It was (and still is) called TEXTURES. DeuTex can probably do the same job.
------------------------------
From: Tom.Holmes%224@satlink.oau.org (Tom Holmes)
Date: 17 Nov 94 21:03:02 -0500
Subject: Textures in Doom1 not Doom2
"(G> ID faked us - they told us that every PWAD from Doom1 will run with
"(G> Doom2. They have to put in the missing textures in a patch - or they
"(G> cannot state that it is illegal to create an addon like Doom1-2.
No they don't and yes they can. Just as someone took the time and
effort to develop DMADDS, someone can easily write a routine to remove
the textures from the DooM IWAD and patch them to the DooM ][ IWAD.
"(G> ID faked us also when they stated that they give us the
"(G> wad-specifications. Where are they ??
Collectively, we've discovered more about DooM's particulars than id
could ever have anticipated. I wouldn't be suprised to learn that we
uncovered a number of capabilities that even _they_ didn't realize
existed. Besides, the real question mark was always the linedef types,
which Romero was kind enough to provide.
"(G> I can only find some illegal specs (inofficial ???) !
Unofficial, perhaps. Illegal, no.
- --- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
- --
|Fidonet: Tom Holmes 1:363/224
|Internet: Tom.Holmes%224@satlink.oau.org
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
| From C.F.Satlink +1-407-240-7781 (ANSI or Vt-100 _required_).
------------------------------
End of doom-editing-digest V1 #57
*********************************
