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HOMEBREW Digest #5156
HOMEBREW Digest #5156 Tue 06 March 2007
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Hopping rates (Signalbox Brewery)
Re: doppelbocks ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
Re: dry ice carbonation ("Craig S. Cottingham")
Hopping rates (Signalbox Brewery)
Re: Dry Ice Carbonation (Fred L Johnson)
Lager question (leavitdg)
Dry Ice ("A.J deLange")
Jeff's location request ("Dave Draper")
Decoction mashing (Randy Ricchi)
Carbonating with dry ice ("Dave Draper")
HSA (Randy Ricchi)
dry ice (Matt)
More on Wyeast bacteria (Matt)
water report thanks ("Mike Racette")
Re: Water Report (Racette) (Calvin Perilloux)
2007 Advanced Homebrewing Course filling up quickly ("Lemcke Keith")
Malt flavor & aroma ("Peed, John")
re: Doppelbock (Leo Vitt)
European Biercation ("Ana E.Fischer")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:48:20 +0000
From: Signalbox Brewery <signalbox.brewery at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Hopping rates
Jim Brishke compares the ability of Promash to compute
bitterness to that of an advanced fourth-generation organic
intelligence network known to its friends as the Durden
Park Beer Circle
No contest. These recipes have been extracted from Victorian
and earlier brewery ledgers and depict 18th and 19th
century UK practice. They have been tested by members of the
circle and these are the pick of the bunch.
Just how representative they are, I can't say - the Durden Parkers
have selected the ones they liked. Moreover they tend to
recommend beers outside the range commonly brewed today
(see p 18 Is it worth making?)
When considering the calculation, note that
a) an imperial gallon is larger that a US one
4.54 compared to 3.78 litres
b) the recipe assumes 4.5% Fuggles - reduce your charge pro-rata
if higher alpha
c) the Promash formulae are extrapolating from some data points
and there is no reason to believe that the solubility of hop acids
modelled by the various equations is remotely accurate at
these levels.
d) it will be so stiff with hops it won't get the chance to roll much and
hence utilisation will be low.
e) if you're using pellets, utilisation would be ever so much higher.
I have no personal experience, but if I was trying it with pellets
I'd knock off at least 30% off the hopping.
I haven't made this recipe, although I've made a number of Durden Park
beers and they've all been super - eventually.
Note the instruction to 'mature for 7-8 months' - a lot can happen
in that time. They don't mean 'mature for 8 months in a fridge'
either - UK cellar ambient would be about 15C / 59 F.
Note too the general instruction to dry hop.
Let us know how it tastes at Christmas.
David Edge, Derby
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:54:36 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: doppelbocks
On Monday, 5 March 2007 at 9:49:10 -0600, Linda Owens wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:45:46 -0500, Peter A. Ensminger wrote:
>> This motivated me to brew my own doppelbock next
>> weekend. Decoctions are a PITA for me. How do I get that
>> roasty-toasty character and all that complexity? Weyerman
>> melanoiden malt? How much? Dark malt (chocolate malt, roasted
>> barley, ...) How much?
>
> If you look at Darryl Richman's book in the style series, he recommends
> only adding a touch of roast malts (about 2 oz) to provide color. You
> really don't want roasty flavors, just a smooth, clean malty character.
> You get this by using lots of munich malt. The need for a decoction
> mash is a point of disagreement among brewers, but Richman insists
> that it is the only way to get the melanoidin flavors that are so critical
> to the style. I've tasted a side by side comparison of an infusion mash
> doppelbock (with kettle caremelization of first runnings) and a triple
> decoction doppelbock. The decocted version was better.
I haven't tried the comparison with this kind of beer, but I did brew
two pale ales for comparison a couple of years ago, one (triple)
decocted and one (triple) step infused to the same temperatures
(60°rees;, 72°rees;, and 78°rees;), The general impression
was that the infused beer was better and had more body. More at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/brewing/decoction.html
I'm a little surprised that decoctions should improve the toasty
flavour, but not having tried it, I can't comment.
> Richman's recipe for a decocted doppelbock is:
> 1.5 pounds lager malt
> 10.25 munich malt
> 0.5 pale caramel
> 0.5 dark caramel
> 2 oz chocolate
You're missing the most important detail here: the step temperatures.
Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:04:00 -0600
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig.cottingham at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: dry ice carbonation
On Mar 5, 2007, at 09:07, "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> wrote:
> How many grams of dry ice does it take to carbonate a 12 oz. bottle
> of beer?
> ...after donning your eye protection of course!
None, or maybe 1 kg. Depends on how much carbonation you're looking
for. :-)
The following is all back-of-the-envelope calculations, or at least
they would be if a physical envelope were actually involved. I once
figured up how much dry ice you'd need to put in a 30 gallon trash
can to displace all the oxygen (for storing grain), and while I don't
remember the exact amount, I do recall it being much smaller than I
expected (and probably smaller than I can purchase from my local
grocery store).
Okay.
According to <http://www.beer-brewing.com/apex/beer_chapters/
ch16_beer_carbonation.htm>, while 1.2 to 1.7 volumes of CO2 per
volume of beer is common in unpressurized beer, the amount for
packaging beer is more like 2.2 to 2.8 volumes. On the other hand,
<http://www.turbotap.com/HomeUsers/HomeUserGas.php> says 2.6 to 2.8
volumes for commercial beers, and 1.8 to 2.4 volumes for craft beers.
Let's assume 2.5 volumes for now.
CO2 volume = 12 fl.oz. * 2.5 = 30 fl.oz = 8.872e-4 m^3
Now, a "volume" of CO2 is its volume at standard temperature (25 degC
or 298 K) and pressure (101.4 kPa). That gives us three of the four
unknowns in the ideal gas law, PV = nRT:
(101.4e3 Pa)(8.872e-4 m^3) = n(8.314)(298 K)
Solving for n, we get:
(101.4e3 Pa)(8.872e-4 m^3)
n = -------------------------- = 3.6e-2 mol
(8.314)(298 K)
The molecular weight of CO2 is 44 g/mol, so the amount of CO2 you
need by mass is
44 g/mol * 3.6e-2 mol = 1.6 g
Wow. That's more than I expected. That's about 1 cubic centimeter, or
a little less than 1/4 tsp. That small a piece of dry ice has pretty
significant surface area for its mass, so I suspect you'd need to
carve off a much bigger chunk (percentage-wise) to account for losses
due to sublimation before you can get it into the bottle, covered
with beer, and capped.
(Caveat: I got a degree once, many years ago, that makes me look
qualified to do these kinds of calculations. Maybe I *was* qualified,
back then, but now I'm not so sure. "Use it or lose it" has some
truth to it. :-)
- --
Craig S. Cottingham
BJCP Certified judge from Olathe, KS ([621, 251.1deg] Apparent
Rennerian)
craig.cottingham at gmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:26:29 +0000
From: Signalbox Brewery <signalbox.brewery at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Hopping rates
Jim Brishke compares the ability of Promash to compute
bitterness to that of an advanced fourth-generation organic
intelligence network known to its friends as the Durden
Park Beer Circle
No contest. These recipes have been extracted from Victorian
and earlier brewery ledgers and depict 18th and 19th
century UK practice. They have been tested by members of the
circle and these are their favourites.
Just how representative they are, I can't say - the Durden Parkers
have selected the ones they liked. Moreover they tend to
recommend beers outside the range commonly brewed today
(see p 18 Is it worth making?)
When considering the calculation, note that
a) an imperial gallon is larger that a US one
4.54 compared to 3.78 litres
b) the recipe assumes 4.5% Fuggles - reduce your charge pro-rata
if higher alpha
c) the Promash formulae are extrapolating from some data points
and there is no reason to believe that the solubility of hop acids
modelled by the various equations is remotely accurate at
these levels.
d) it will be so stiff with hops it won't get the chance to roll much and
hence utilisation will be low.
e) if you're using pellets, utilisation would be ever so much higher.
I have no personal experience, but if I was trying it with pellets
I'd knock off at least 30% off the hopping.
I haven't made this recipe, although I've made a number of Durden Park
beers and they've all been super - eventually.
Note the instruction to 'mature for 7-8 months' - a lot can happen
in that time. They don't mean 'mature for 8 months in a fridge'
either - UK cellar ambient would be about 15C / 59 F.
Note too the general instruction to dry hop.
Let us know how it tastes at Christmas.
David Edge, Derby
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:28:43 -0500
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Dry Ice Carbonation
Chad asks about the amount of dry ice (CO2) it will take to carbonate a
12 oz. bottle of beer.
Here is the calculation:
To add 2 volumes of CO2 to a 12 oz beer, one needs to add 24 oz of CO2.
One ounce (volume) is equivalent to 29.57 milliliters, so Chad will
want to add 12 oz x 29.57 mL per oz = 709 mL = 0.709 L of CO2 to each
12 oz beer.
Avogadro taught us that one mole of a gas occupies 22.4 liters at
standard temperature and standard pressure, so Chad will want to add
0.709 L / 22.4 L per mole = 0.032 moles of CO2.
The molecular weight of CO2 is (1 x 12 g/mole carbon) + (2 x 16 g/mole
oxygen) = 44 g/mole CO2
The mass of CO2 needed for one bottle is therefore 0.032 moles CO2 x 44
g/mole CO2 = 1.41 g
I don't recommend trying what Chad is suggesting, but it could
theoretically work if you could trap the CO2 gas in the bottle
immediately after adding the dry ice. Of course, as soon as the dry ice
hits the relatively warm liquid, the CO2 will sublimate and you'll
probably get a rush of CO2 gas out the top of the bottle.
(Oh well, thinking about it was fun.)
Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:25:26 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Lager question
Jeff, et al;
What would be the implications of re-cooling a CAP/ LAGER after the diacetyl
rest, and before taking it off of the yeast? I ask in that I wish to re-use
the yeast just by pitching on top of the cake, but cannot do so for several
days, and my lager has sat for 2 days at around 60F.
Darrell
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:07:50 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Dry Ice
According to the ASBC's carbonation chart the CO2 % by weight in beer
of specific gravity 1.010 is 0.195 times the volumes of CO2 per volume
of beer. Thus, a beer with 2 volumes dissolved CO2 would contain about
0.39 grams CO2 per 100 grams of beer. Twelve Oz 1.010 beer weighs
12*454*1.010/16 = 344 grams so that the dissolved CO2 would be about
1.32 grams for 2 volumes and that is the amount of dry ice which would
be added to a 12 Oz bottle of totally flat beer to carbonate it to that
level. But beer that has been taken from a fermenter, even a secondary
fermenter, is going to have some CO2 dissolved in it to the extent of
about 3.2694 +.076221*P - 0.042274*T volumes (T in F, P is psig) i.e
from a little less than a volume near room temperature to about 1.6
volumes near freezing. Thus you may be in for a surprise if you
carbonate using this relationship unless you pretty thoroughly
decarbonate the beer before adding dry ice.
A.J. 37 10N; 77 10W
PS: A more accurate formula for the dissolved CO2 in beer is V = 3.4821
+ 0.14562*P - 0.07437*T - 6.6194e-05 *P*P - 0.0012952*P*T +
0.00053484*T*T. This and the simpler formula are from fits to the data
in the ASBC chart between 32 and 60F and from 5 psig up to 30 but are
certainly useable down to 0 pisg (and below as things are reasonably
linear).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:28:54 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Jeff's location request
Dear Friends,
>From experience over past years, I'm prompted to add that when Jeff
Renner (hi Jeff!) does his semiannual request to post one's location,
he is NOT asking for everyone to post right now to say where they are-
- he means, when you post for normal purposes, include your locale.
Many times after Jeff's requests we've had days of digests with posts
saying nothing but "I'm in [location]"... that's not the intent.
Civic-mindedely,
Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot Name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html
That's all very well in practice; but will it work in *theory*?
---Ken Willing
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:34:42 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Decoction mashing
Rick Garvin posted yesterday that he's done 40 minute decoctions, and
it got me to wondering:
After the decoction and transfer back to the main mash, do you then
rinse the decoction kettle with hot water to recover the remaining sugars?
Even with infusion mashing, I tend to rinse my mash kettle and dump the
rinsings into the lauter tun but I always wonder if I'm being penny wise
and pound foolish in doing so. Sure, I'm recovering a little more
extract, but how much, really, and is it worth the potential risk of HSA?
The long decoction probably results in thicker extract and more left
behind in the form of sticky residue, and hence my question. What do
others do, rinse or no rinse?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:34:46 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Carbonating with dry ice
Dear Friends,
Chad Stevens asks how much dry ice would be needed to carbonate a
bottle of beer.
I have not done this but I suspect it would be a very inefficient way
to go about it, and Chad's allusion to wearing safety glasses is a
strong clue. Immerse dry ice in liquid and it's going to froth and
spume like mad, right? A great deal of the CO2 will therefore be
escaping rather than ultimately dissolving into the beer, even if you
slap a cap on there immediately. Some CO2 will end up in the beer,
sure, but it would be extremely difficult to do reproducibly, I would
expect-- you'd get very different amounts from one bottle to the
next. Seems like way more trouble than it's worth instead of just
weighing out the sugar needed for a particular number of volumes,
which has turned out to be a pretty effective way to go.
Cheers, Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot Name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html
Yeast are forgiving unless you really insult them.
---Dan McConnell
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:43:26 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: HSA
While on the topic of HSA, can anyone tell me at what temp can I be
assured that my mash water will be free of trapped oxygen before I mash in?
In my last batch, I heated the water to around 165F (I was shooting for
a strike temp of 150), and as I was transferring the water to the grains
using a one quart pyrex measuring cup, I noticed outgassing from the
water. I waited awhile and the outgassing ceased, and then I proceeded
with my mash in.
I suppose I can draw the conclusion that 165 is warm enough to de-aerate
the water, but there is also a time factor involved before the
de-aeration is complete.
Now I'm wondering how many times I've mashed in right after getting my
water to temp, and unwittingly dumped hot, aerated water into my mash,
thus dooming my batch right from the get-go.
It might be an answer to why sometimes my hop character disappears
within a few weeks, although the remaining beer does seem otherwise
fresh - no cardboard or other stale tastes.????
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:58:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: dry ice
Chad,
Answers to a number of questions about dry ice carbonation can be found
in HBD#4982...
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:54:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: More on Wyeast bacteria
Raj's post does add some perspective to the information I posted on
Wyeast's lactobacillus strain. Certainly, there is a limit to how well
a company that caters to hobbyists can be expected to stay on top of a
changing taxonomic situation. (Of course Wyeast and White Labs also
sell to commercial breweries, which may raise the standard a bit.)
Further, the taxonomic "truth" is not always well-known or even
well-defined, which muddies the waters further.
In my opinion, what should be expected is not perfect accuracy, but
rather transparency. If the company does not know which lactobacillus
they have, then the strain should be sold simply as "lactobacillus."
More specific names aid consumers only if they understand the basis for
the name--only then can they judge what information from other sources
(textbooks, Raj's web page, Sparrow's "Wild Brews", websites about
yogurt, half-lies from Belgian brewmasters) is useful.
This is why I was pleased to read the following in an email response to
my HBD post, from Wyeast:
" Our Lactobacillus culture is now labelled "Lactobacillus" and our
Pediococcus cerevisiae (aka Pedio. damnosus) is now labeled
"Pediococcus". "
After this name change, it is much easier to decide what information
might be helpful when one invests months in making a beer with these 2
strains. Previous experience of other brewers with the product would
be useful. Looking up hop resistance and temperature ranges for "l.
delbrueckii" might be counterproductive, and now the consumer knows it.
I'm still trying to understand the basis for how the ~8 other commonly
available non-saccharomyces strains are named, and will pass along
whatever I find.
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:54:21 -0700
From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
Subject: water report thanks
Thanks for all who commented on my water. Very helpful info and right in
line with most of what I had figured. Interesting to see how very similar
the comments were.
Since Jeff is wondering where this water is from, I live in Green Mountain
Falls above Colorado Springs so this water comes from Pikes Peak a few
thousand feet straight above our house and is treated at the Ute Pass water
treatment plant who kindly provided the report a few years ago.
Calvin, my nitrates were 0.13, not 13 ppm, but you're right the EPA maximum
for drinking water is 10 ppm. I don't know if my residual chlorine at 0.75
ppm (all my posted numbers were averages by the way) is high or low compared
to most but the water tastes great and it hasn't been a problem in brewing.
I never treat for chlorine. The maximum residual disinfectant level is
listed as 4 ppm.
When I lived in another nearby town south of Colorado Springs which also got
part of its water from the Pikes Peak watershed they mixed water from the
Arkansas River and supplemented with the town's well water. That water was
not so great: tasted bad and so hard at times (when they were using more of
the well water) that I had to blend about 50-50 with RO water from one of
the store machines in order to brew. I'm thankful to have the great water I
do now.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:58:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Water Report (Racette)
Whoops! I missed the decimal in my commentary on
Mike Racette's water in the HBD #5153. He had:
>Nitrate as Nitrogen - 0.13
And I wrote:
>Nitrates at 13 ppm are fairly high for US drinking water.
[etc]
Doh! He's actually got no worries at all with 0.13 ppm
instead of 13 ppm. Just ignore those nitrates completely,
Mike.
Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland USA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:10:31 -0500
From: "Lemcke Keith" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: 2007 Advanced Homebrewing Course filling up quickly
While our 2007 Siebel Institute / Fort Lewis College Advanced
Homebrewing course doesn't start until the last week of July, we are
already halfway to our maximum enrolment of 30 students! If you would
like to make sure you get a seat in this year's class, please contact us
asap to register. Accommodations on campus (and in the Durango area) is
also limited, so you should book your accommodations soon as well. After
our 30 student capacity has been reached, we will keep a list of those
on "standby" in case a student cancels their registration.
You can check our web site at
http://www.siebelinstitute.com/course_desc/homebrewing.html for complete
information about the program. For questions about the course content,
contact Keith Lemcke at klemcke at siebelinstitute.com . To register for
the course, or for questions about Fort Lewis College, the Durango area
and housing options, contact Gigi Duthie at DUTHIE_G at fortlewis.edu .
Keith Lemcke
Vice-President
Siebel Institute of Technology
World Brewing Academy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:10:29 -0800
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Malt flavor & aroma
I was waiting to see the responses to Peter's question about malt
character in Doppelbocks. Linda & Rick give interesting insights, but I
still have lots of questions. I have attempted 3 Doppelbocks, a Dunkel
and a couple of Alts - all have been disappointing in malt flavor &
aroma. The last straw was a 100% Alt that had all the malt character
of, say, Coca Cola. I actually threw it out without even carbonating
it. I decided that the time had come to compare brands of Munich malt,
and bought 4 different brands to go with the one I've been using. I've
brewed two 95% Munich Alts since - they're still fermenting. We shall
see what we shall see. I find it hard to believe that you can't get
decent malt flavor with 90 to 100% Munich quality malt and 2206 lager
yeast, so I think it's time to investigate different brands of Munich
malt.
As for decoction mashing, I don't see how it's going to be beneficial
with today's highly modified malts. I can see where you would get
additional color and melanoidens, but I would think it would be
detrimental if not done with less-modified malts. Nonetheless, I have
tried triple decoctions with Doppelbocks and wasn't particularly
impressed with the results. I actually enjoy decoction mashing but not
enough to do it if it doesn't show obvious benefits. I have also tried
kettle caramelization but I scorched the wort, so I don't think it was a
fair test (the beer was said to have a soy sauce character). I have
also tried melanoiden and aromatic malts in small amounts and found them
more distracting than beneficial. I think the key is quality Munich
malt.
Rick, you say you use 100% dark Munich - WOW, that's really gettin'
after it! According to Noonan, dark Munich tends to be undermodified so
it makes sense to use dark Munich with a triple decoction. Do you feel
that you're approaching the solid maltiness of the best commercial
examples?
Other suggestions, ideas, comments, discussion? Ayinger, Paulaner,
Spaten and a host of other German and US brewers can get that rich malt
depth. Is there some deep dark secret to it?
John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:22:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Doppelbock
Peter asked some questions about doppelbock recipes. Peter you are
going to get different opinions.
> I recently had some Sam Adams doppelbock (OG: 23 deg; ABV: 8.8%). It
> was very nice! Clean and complex.
I am more of a fan of Optimator and Celebrator from Spatten and
Ayinger.
> This motivated me to brew my own doppelbock next weekend. Decoctions
> are a PITA for me. How do I get that roasty-toasty character and all
> that complexity? Weyerman melanoiden malt? How much? Dark malt
> (chocolate malt, roasted barley, ...) How much?
Absolutely none for roasted malt or chocolate malt! Nothing unmalted
in a German lager. That is the purist speaking up in me. OK, I'll let
you use a couple of ounces in 5 gals. More will taste too roasty.
Doppelbocks or German bocks should not be roasty. Munich malt should
dominatethe recipe. In fact, 80-90% munich malt. Melanoiden malt - The
first time I used it, I used a pound. TOO MUCH. It took a year to age
out some of the flavor it left. I keep this under 1/2 lb. Caramunich
and caravienna are good in bocks.
If you want to imitate Sam Adams, then you need to disregard my
suggestion. It is likely pale malt, a significant amount of dark
crystal malt and some chocolate or roasted malt.
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:33:59 -0800 (PST)
From: "Ana E.Fischer" <fisching99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: European Biercation
Greetings All,
As a home brewer for over 10 years and a long time
reader of the digest I seek assistance from all on
different beers, breweries, pubs, bier gardens etc.
that are a must to visit and enjoy while in Europe. My
wife and I are seasoned travelers and have eaten and
drank our way around most of Europe. This summer we
are headed into Amsterdam where we pick up our car and
for the next 49 days drive across Germany toward
Berlin. Next to Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary,
Romania, Ukraine, Poland, The Baltics, Finland,
Sweden, Norway, Denmark and back to Amsterdam. Wow,
I'm already exhausted. But we are in no hurry and are
very flexible. Please send me any ideas, stories or
suggestions to the digest or my e-mail address.
Thanking you in advance,
Robert E. Fischer
Tropical Park Brewery
Miami, Fl
(1205,168.5)Apparent Rennerian
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #5156, 03/06/07
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