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HOMEBREW Digest #5071
HOMEBREW Digest #5071 Fri 06 October 2006
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
RE: fusels, ethynol acetate, and brewing and dying... ("Lee Scott")
Aging of ales (Glyn)
Final reminder: Valhalla Mead Only Competition ("David Houseman")
re: fusels, ethynol acetate, and brewing and dying... ("steve.alexander")
harshness: fusels vs ethyl acetate ("Peter A. Ensminger")
Re: harshness: fusels vs ethyl acetate ("steve.alexander")
re: ethyl acetate ("steve.alexander")
Novembeerfest homebrewing competition ("Jim Hinken")
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:01:00 -0400
From: "Lee Scott" <lee at gmplabproducts.com>
Subject: RE: fusels, ethynol acetate, and brewing and dying...
Michael Kolaghassi asks:
I'm new to this and was just wondering if anyone can think of any fatal or
serious incidents that involved the drinking of homemade fermented beverages
(not distilled)? Can, for instance, I die of botulism...
I am not aware of anyone dieing from a homebrew, or at least I have not
heard them talking about it.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 12:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glyn <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: Aging of ales
Ok, what changes? High OG, High temp. ferment, really
harsh at bottling, ages to a great beer.
What changed?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 21:58:57 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: Final reminder: Valhalla Mead Only Competition
This is the final reminder and call for judges for the Valhalla - The
Meading of
Life mead-only competition, October 14, 2007, at the Iron Hill Restaurant
and
Brewery in West Chester, PA. All mead styles from the BJCP 2004 Style
Guidelines will be judged. Entries are due by October 7th. Mail entries
(one 12oz bottle larger bottle) can be sent to Home
Sweet Homebrew (www.homesweethomebrew.com). Drop off locations locally at
Home Sweet Homebrew, Keystone Homebrew Supply, Iron Hill West Chester, Brew
Your Own Beer-Winemaking Too!, and Wine, Barley & Hops Homebrew Supply.
Additional information can be found at www.valhalla-mead.com. Contact
Suzanne McMurphy (mcmurphy at mail.med.upenn.edu) or Tim Ackerson
(Theimann at verizon.net) for answers to questions about this competition.
Judges and stewards should contact David Houseman
(david.houseman at verizon.net) to judge this event.
A number have contacted me; that's great, but we still need a few more.
Judges should be at Iron Hill West Chester by 9:00 am. We will conduct a
brief mead judging refresher course for judges prior to the beginning of
juding.
Directions can be found at www.ironhillbrewery.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 00:42:35 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: fusels, ethynol acetate, and brewing and dying...
Michael Kolaghassi asks ...
>Im new to this and was just wondering if anyone can think of any fatal or
>serious incidents that involved the drinking of homemade fermented beverages
>(not distilled)?
There are several chemicals which appear in any beer at microscopic levels
which might be carcinogenic, but probably less so than a grilled steak
or a french fry. The ethanol & fusels in beer is not exactly a health
food either.
It appears that well made beer is reasonably safe from dangerous
secondary infections. Botulism poisoning is due to certain Clostridium
bacteria which are obligate anaerobes (so they could survive in beer), they
don't like pH as low as normal beer, and their metabolism is based on
catabolic use of protein which is scarce in beer. The ethanol should
prevent growth too. Most common 'food poisoning' bacteria, like
Campylobacter, Salmonella and can't thrive due to one of more of beer
pH, O2, EtOH.
E.coli of the naughty (0157:H7) sort, can survive at apple cider pH
so perhaps they could survive in beer. To prevent this I strongly
recommend that you avoid adding any mammalian fecal matter
to your beer after the boil ((which BJCP style does that eliminate?)).
Yes some fungi (wild yeasts - many non-Saccharomyces) can survive on
beer, and if improperly stored acetic bacteria can thrive. Both
require O2, tho' perhaps just a little for certain molds. The common
"white-floaties" are probably micro-aerobic Candida. Acetic bacteria
can produce acetic acid (normal vinegar process) and also considerable
levels of esters including ethyl-acetate. No really harmful byproducts
here - move along.
I have never heard of a case of post-ferment infection causing an
allergic reaction, but it is certainly possible. Allergies are
virtually always a reaction to a foreign protein, and so any foreign
mold or bacterial growth introduces the possibility.
WRT to distillation a LOT of nonsense has been written on the topic.
The major problem from distillation is that 'foreshots' (early output
from a still) concentrate any methanol present. Methanol is NOT
produced by yeast metabolism. The methanol is from reduced methyl
residues in the fermentables. Grain/malt has very little methyl
residues while pome fruit and certain berries have a lot. Unless
you drink straight foreshots from distilled malt or drink too much
ethanol there is little danger.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 01:01:17 -0400
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: harshness: fusels vs ethyl acetate
I just smelled SWMBO's nail polish remover (main ingredient: ethyl
acetate). Nasty stuff ... much nastier than the braggot I posted about
back on Aug 7: http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/5042.html#5042-5 . For
health reasons, I am reluctant to do a titration of nail polish remover
in my own beer or a mega-swill to see if I can mimic the flavor of my
braggot on Aug 7. (I hope to be healthy and drinking homebrew when in my
90's!)
Bottom line: I'm still not sure if the harshness, which was practically
gone by mid-September, was due to fusels or ethyl acetate.
According to -S, once you've got fusels, you're stuck with them
(obviously an over-simplification of his comments here:
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/PreviousHBD.html#5069-5 and elsewhere in the
hbd). This would suggest that I'm dealing with ethyl acetate or another
hot/harsh component that is greatly diminished in ~5 weeks.
BUT! according to former hbd'er Al Korzonas (Homebrewing, vol 1, pp
280-81), fusels esterify in the presence of yeast and acids to create
mostly fruity flavors. So maybe I am dealing with fusels!?
I don't have access to the scientific literature on this esoteric
subject and neither -S not Korzonas have listed references.
Your feedback would be appreciated!
Cheers!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 03:38:59 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: harshness: fusels vs ethyl acetate
Peter A. Ensminger wrote:
> I just smelled SWMBO's nail polish remover (main ingredient: ethyl
> acetate). Nasty stuff ...
Exactly ! I've actually seen one beer and one vinegar 'ferment' which
had truly obnoxious levels of (apparently) ethyl acetate - and yes it
negatively impacts flavor.
> According to -S, once you've got fusels, you're stuck with them [...]
> BUT! according to former hbd'er Al Korzonas (Homebrewing, vol 1, pp
> 280-81), fusels esterify in the presence of yeast and acids to create
> mostly fruity flavors. So maybe I am dealing with fusels!?
I sincerely miss AlK's posts. It's not quite so simple as
yeast+fusels+acids=esters. I posted a long description with references
around February (and probably once a year before). The basic idea is
that when yeast stop growing they have some mid-length fatty acids
(carboxylic acids) in the works, and these mid-length FAs are toxic -
they destroy the lipid bi-layer with a detergent-like action. Possibly
to mop up the toxic mess, yeast produce a burst of enzymes at that point
which can cause esterification of a carboxylic acids plus an alcohol.
I presume the Darwinian intention is to negate the toxic FA's, but the
greatest concentration of carboxylic acid in beer is due to acetic
acid(vinegar) - so we get all sorts of acetate esters, and less of
the others. Of course ethanol is the primary alcohol involved and the
ethanol+acetic acid combo produces ethyl-acetate - typically the most
concentrated ester in beer. Of course the enzymes involved are
exceedingly specific (as enzymes are wont to be) and so the yeast
determines which enzymes and therefore which ester aromas appear.
Without the enzymes, at beer pH & concentration, the forward reactions
forming esters are virtually nonexistent.
So IF your yeast are still producing the enzymes they could be
converting fusels to esters. In typical beer, one a modest but
non-trivial fraction of fusels are converted to esters - very roughly
20-30%. Kunze claims (TB&M, pp 329) "The higher alcohols produced
cannot be removed again ..." [after fermentation]. He also state that
[total] fusel levels above 100ppm damage flavor considerably. Most
common gravity beer runs 60-100ppm - so near the danger zone.
> I don't have access to the scientific literature on this esoteric
> subject and neither -S not Korzonas have listed references.
"Brewing Yeast & Fermentation", Boulton & Quain, pp 121-125 describes
esters formation very nicely.
"The Science and Technology of Whiskies", Piggott, Sharp & Duncan,
describe the changes in whisky chemistry through aging, and of course
this is somewhat applicable to beer. Both BY&F and the classic M&BS
have small descriptions of aging changes and the impact of fusels and
other volatiles on flavor.
- --
OK - So I started hunting several flavor/aroma sources to see which
fusels MIGHT be the culprit that offends me. I don't mind the warm
brandy-wine/spirity impact of fusels in a barleywine unless it's over
the top. What annoys my tongue is a dull bitter flavor that often
accompanies hi-gravity/warm fermented beers.
Phenyl-ethyl alcohol is generally regarded positively as a rose/flower
aroma. That leaves n-propanol, 2-methyl butanol, 3-methyl butanol, and
iso-butanol. Many of the common sources only cite things like fruity,
spirity, alcoholic aromas for these 4 common fusels. Digging deeper I
read:
n-propanol - ethereal, acetone-like (2-propanol only), fruity.
isobutanol - "gives an unpleasant note. 3.2ppm threshold in water.
2-methyl butanol - acrid, penetrating, but also earthy-musty,
ethereal-fruity, malt, wine, onion.
3-methyl butanol - choking disagreeable, cough provoking, somewhat
alcoholic, burnt, bitter, wine, only in higher dilution becoming
pleasant fruity (threshold 0.25-0.77ppm)
==
I'm betting that the n-methyl butanols (aka active amyl alcohol and
isoamyl alcohol) are the flavor culprits I hate in many high gravity brews.
Heres an interesting link to another HBD long-timer ... very interesting
http://www.evansale.com/esters_article.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 04:23:36 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: ethyl acetate
Bob Devine writes ...
> I don't consider ethyl acetate as having a harsh flavor, in moderate
> and low levels it has a fruity aroma and low taste.
"Overexposure can irritate the eyes, nose and throat", "pleasant
fruity-ethereal brandy-like odor, somewhat nauseating in higher
concentrations". ["Coffee Flavor Chemistry", Ivan Flavant, pp 172].
> Fusel alcohols are the common name for the grab-bag of amyl
> alcohols and random fatty acids.
Not fatty acids - no ! Only 5 of 40 identified fusels in beer are amyl
alcohols although three of these are important ones.
> So, I don't think that ethyl acetate tastes like fusels.
I disagree. Fusels and also ethyl-acetate have fruity sprity,
brandy-like aroma and are harsh. That's quite similar.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:13:05 -0700
From: "Jim Hinken" <jim.hinken at verizon.net>
Subject: Novembeerfest homebrewing competition
The Impaling Alers are pleased to announce the 2006 Novembeerfest
homebrewing competition.
Novembeerfest will be held Saturday, November 4 at Larry's Brewing
Supply, 7405 S. 212th St. #103, Kent, WA 98032.
Novembeerfest is a MCAB IX qualifying event.
Entries will be accepted from all 2004 BJCP/AHA beer style categories,
including cider and mead. The style guidelines may be viewed at
http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/. Three bottles are required for entry
with an entry fee of $6.00 The standard AHA entry form and bottle
labels may be used. Entry forms may also be downloaded from
www.impalingalers.org. Entries will be accepted through Saturday,
October 28 and may be shipped to:
Larry's Brewing Supply
7405 S. 212th St. #103
Kent WA 98032,
206-872-6846
Entries may also be dropped off at:
Mountain Homebrew and Wine Supply, 12121 N.E. Northup Way, Suite 210,
Bellevue, WA 98005, 206-882-9929
Bob's Homebrew Supply, 2821 NE 55th ST. Seattle, WA 98105,
206-527-9283
The Beer Essentials 2624 112th St. #E-1 Lakewood, WA. 98499 253
581-4288
The Cellar Homebrew 14320 Greenwood Ave. N. Seattle, WA 98133
206-365-7660
Olympic Brewing Supplies 2817 Wheaton Way Bremerton, WA 98310
360-373-1094
If you have any questions or are interested in judging, please contact
Nic Templeton at Nic Templeton at ntempleton at gmail.com or Jim Hinken
at brews.brothers at verizon.net
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5071, 10/06/06
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