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HOMEBREW Digest #5075
HOMEBREW Digest #5075 Tue 17 October 2006
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Call for entries, Franco-Belgian Challenge Cup (Eric Schoville)
Pride of Pendle Clone Request ("Janie Curry")
fusels and harshness ("Peter A. Ensminger")
Enzymatic Activity over Temp ("Anton Walters")
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:21:43 -0500
From: Eric Schoville <eric at schoville.com>
Subject: Call for entries, Franco-Belgian Challenge Cup
This is a little note to let you know, if you haven't already heard,
that the 4th Annual Franco-Belgian Challenge Cup sponsored by the
Madison Homebrewers & Tasters Guild is fast approaching!!
The contest is an attempt to encourage the home brewing of French and
Belgian style beers. As such, only French and Belgian style beers (BJCP
category's 16 18) will be judged. The competition is sanctioned by
BJCP/AHA. 2004 AHA/BJCP style guidelines (version 2005-A) will be used.
Awards will be issued to first, second, and third place beers in each
category, (MHTG reserves the right to consolidate category's dependent
on the number of entrys in a category).
The competition will be held Saturday, November 11th, 2006 at the Ale
Asylum, Madison's newest and only micro brewery, 3698 Kinsman Blvd,
Madison, Wi 53704
Please visit http://mhtg.org/contests for additional entry details and
forms.
It's always a lot of fun - and we're hoping that you might be able to
help us out this year with entries!
Cheers!
Dave Pegelow
dpegelow at facstaff.wisc.edu
Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:07:16 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pride of Pendle Clone Request
This past weekend, I experienced the nicest cask ale ever to pass my lips.
It is called Pride of Pendle and was served to me via beer engine at the
Pendle Inn in Barley, Lancashire. Every single swallow was reminiscent of
grain, honey, and very mild hop bitterness. Anyone have a clone recipe (all
grain) for this amazing low gravity (I think it was 3.6 percent) English
Bitter?
Todd
Member of the Liquid Poets
Fort Collins, CO
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:37:04 -0400
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: fusels and harshness
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the feedback. In the case of my braggot (harsh to great in
~6-8 weeks) ...
1) DMS: Definitely not
2) acetaldehyde: Definitely not
3) phenolics: Probably not. I always thought they were astringent, as if
biting into the acorn of a red oak (Quercus rubra) or SWMBO's dining
room table.
However, your thoughts about phenols binding to protein got me thinking.
When my braggot was harsh it was also a bit hazy (probably protein-haze,
not yeast-haze). It is now much clearer and also tastes much better.
This may be mere coincidence. OR ... it may be that the harsh-tasting
molecule(s) binded to and precipitated out with the protein in my
Cornelius keg.
Of course, proteins can bind to lots of stuff, so maybe we're back to
SQUARE-ONE. Any thoughts?
Cheers!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr/syracuse.html
- -----
steve.alexander wrote:
> Peter A. Ensminger wrote:
>> Hi (again) Steve,
>>
>> An occasional hbd'er who is bashful about posting (despite my
>> exhortations), but who is fascinated by the hbd thread on fusels would
>> like an answer to a post of Oct 5. Can you help?
>>
>> -----
>> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 12:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Glyn <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Aging of ales
>> Ok, what changes? High OG, High temp. ferment, really
>> harsh at bottling, ages to a great beer.
>> What changed?
>> -----
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Peter
>
> So a beer that is "harsh" at bottling tastes great after some aging ...
> hmmmm. This is a bit of a loaded question. It's pretty easy for
> me to trace the fusels (there are only 5 or 6 fusels that ever reach the
> flavor threshold in beer) and search some sources, consider the possible
> reactions of fusels and declare that the fusel level doesn't change much
> in the bottle. "Harsh flavor" could be a a lot of things with a huge
> number of possible reactions.
>
> I haven't seen any detailed descriptions of the processing of these
> harsh->great beers so that opens a lot of additional options. For
> example there ARE probably mechanisms for fusel reduction (and ester
> increase) during bottle conditioning. Of course we can't consider
> bottle fermentation to be "normal aging" so I discount this sort of
> change as due to "aging".
>
> Another processing question relates to the timing of the yeast removal
> and bottling. DMS removal due to yeast enzymes halts when the yeast
> are removed *BUT* the offensive DMS can still be converted to less
> flavorful DMSO as an oxidation process over time.... problem here is
> that DMS isn't considered "harsh". Another impact related to yeast
> removal, acetaldehyde, has an apples aroma, but a rather harsh
> flavor. Normally yeast convert acetaldehyde they exude into ethanol,
> but when the yeast are remove prior to completion acetaldehyde
> remains. I don't see any rational mechanisms which would decrease
> acetaldehyde levels significantly in bottled beer (but maybe I'm missing
> something).
>
> Harsh, but not fiery-ethereal flavors may be caused by oxidize
> phenolic materials, and these tend to complex with protein (making them
> non-harsh) then they sediment. This is one aspect of lagering beers to
> create smoother tasting beer. Hops (esp late addition) an add
> particularly harsh gallotannins to beer and these are also particularly
> likely to complex with proteins. I suspect this is why dry hopping
> seems so out of place in lagers. There are other unpleasant and
> perhaps harsh compounds in late hop additions,
>
> So there you have it - I DON'T KNOW. Some phenolics can taste pretty
> harsh, bitter, astringent, medicinal and even sort of plastic-y, but I
> think this is the less likely possibility. More likely the chemical(s)
> causing the harsh flavor are alcohols (fusels), or else something with a
> carbonyl or carboxcylic group (there are often flavorful - good or
> bad). VDKs don't tend toward harshness, and I can't think of a good
> excuse to consider other harsher ketones in beer. Energetically (from
> highest to lowest energy) you have potential changes like:
> ethanol -> ethanal -> ethanoic acid(acetic acid)
> butanol -> butanal -> butanoic acid
> propanol -> propanal -> propanoic acids.
> I don't have a table of flavor thresholds for all of these, but my hunch
> is that the X-anoic (carboxcylic acid) form is the most obnoxious and
> the alcohol & aldehyde are comparable. So energy/oxidation
> consideration don't help explain a beer that tastes harsh getting
> better. It is possible though that some less oxidized substance is
> transferring it's low oxidation state to a carbonyl and thus removing
> the obnoxious flavor. I would expect that this usually takes place
> during the fermentation though.
>
> It's puzzling. My hunch is still in fusels and perhaps a few esters
> and aldehydes as the usual source of harshness, but I don't see these
> going away.
>
> -S
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:40:25 -0700
From: "Anton Walters" <antonw at speakeasy.net>
Subject: Enzymatic Activity over Temp
Since things are a bit slow in the realm of the HBD...
I was wondering if there is a quantitative table or polynomial describing
how
enzymatic activity for alpha and beta amylase varies over temperature. I'd
like to plot the result and get a better idea about what is going on during
the saccharification rest at any given temperature.
Any pointers or references to the literature are greatly appreciated!
-Anton Walters
Seattle, WA.
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #5075, 10/17/06
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