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HOMEBREW Digest #4956
HOMEBREW Digest #4956 Mon 20 February 2006
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Do yeast consume ethanol? (Fred L Johnson)
My well water analysis ("LARRY KRESS")
belated thanks for lager yeast responses (lkowens)
WhiteLabs Super high gravity ale yeast (Randy Ricchi)
re: compost ("steve.alexander")
Avoid excess fusels by skipping the yeast nutrient? (Matt)
re: compost ("Mike Racette")
Re: diacetyl anyone ? ("Fredrik")
spiked ale, Het Pint.... ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
Anyone using a "heat pipe" to cool fermenter? How about a peltier (Bill Velek)
Koln water ? ("steve.alexander")
Update Your BJCP Email Address ("David Houseman")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 22:56:59 -0500
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Do yeast consume ethanol?
Will/can brewing yeast use ethanol as an energy source for growth in
the presence of abundant oxygen?
Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:14:35 -0500
From: "LARRY KRESS" <gotchagoat at rogers.com>
Subject: My well water analysis
Hello fellow brewers,
I am in the process of purchasing a home with well water and I got the lab
report back.
Please enlighten my chemistry deprived knowledge of brewing water.
Is the water good for brewing?
Alkalinity as CaCO3 - 271 mg/L
Chloride - 48 mg/L
Conductivity - 663 uS/cm
Fluoride - 0.13 mg/L
N-NO3 (Nitrate) - .25 mg/L
pH - 7.75
Sulphate - 24 mg/L
Hardness as CaCO3 - 295 mg/L
Ion Balance - 0.91
Calcium - 67 mg/L
Magnesium - 31 mg/L
Potassium - 1 mg/L
Sodium - 17 mg/L
Iron - 0.03 mg/L
Manganese - < 0.01 mg/L
Thank you,
Larry Kress
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:07:10 -0600
From: <lkowens at uiuc.edu>
Subject: belated thanks for lager yeast responses
Thanks to everyone who answered my question about when to
pitch lager yeast. I now have a much better sense of how to
work with lagers.
Linda,
Champaign, IL
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:40:11 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: WhiteLabs Super high gravity ale yeast
White Labs doesn't give any indication of the flavor profile of their
Super high gravity ale yeast. All they say on their website is that it
"Can ferment up to 25% alcohol. From England."
Does anyone know what the flavor profile of this yeast is? I want
something with character and highly attenuative for a traditional, mid
1800's IPA. I figure this yeast would produce the highly attenuated
character I'm looking for, but what about the yeast flavors?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:55:09 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: compost
Glyn Crossno asks,
>How do you get 31 lbs of grain dry enough to compost?
>To keep the critters out I compost in a barrel that I
>roll around 7 or 8 times a day. But with that much wet
>grains it almost always stinks a little bit.
You are missing the point. The main theme of composting
is to get the critters in, not keep them out. Seriously
if you only compost vegetable matter and mix it into an
existing heap, remix regularly you shouldn't have pest
problems. Not even flies & gnats are a problem if
you keep it mixed with in-progress compost.
>Does the barrel need more hole? Turn it 7 or 8 times
>twice a day? Is there something I could add to the
>compost to suck up some of the moisture?
I turn my compost heap with a front-end loader and a cat1
rototiller so there is a difference in scale here. Wet
spent grist is inherently sticky so I imagine it would be
a PITA in a barrel.
That nasty rancid vomit-like aroma that appears in hours in
spent grist is due primarily butyric acid produced mainly by
anaerobic bacteria which prefer neutral pH. Anaerobic lysis
is a useful way to compost, but it does smell bad, and also
stops quickly when the pH drops. If you don't mind the smell
and mess you can assist the anaerobic process by adding lime
(e.g. gardeners dolomitic lime) to adjust the compost pH upward.
If you don't want the sticky, wet, stinky mess, then you should
expose anaerobes on the surface of the grist to air.
Turning more often may help, but that's work and you still
have too much water trapped in the grist to avoid the
anaerobic process.
If you spread the grist thinly in a relatively dry spot
(under a pine for example) it will dry out somewhat, have
really good access to air, become much more workable and
far less aromatic in just a couple days.
Mixing the grist with equal parts (or more) of topsoil, peat
or finished compost will adsorb excess water and allow much
much better access to air. This alleviates the aroma problem
and also improves the rate of decomposition.
The books would suggest that grist is on the nitrogen side
of the C:N balance for composting, but in proactice is composts
nicely without amendment. The cellulose in the grist breaks
down only slowly, and it's a good substrate for fungi even
long after the composting is finished.
Composted grist is an excellent soil amendment, so it's
worth a little effort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost
and the Rodale Compost Book are useful references.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:52:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Avoid excess fusels by skipping the yeast nutrient?
Steve's comment that "Cold fermentation causes less FAN uptake..."
reminded me of something I've been meaning to post and ask about.
I think excess fusels are one of the most common problems homebrewers
have with strong ales, probably because we don't know exactly how to
change our brewing practices to avoid them. I think there is a major
point most of us may be missing, which could be a key to helping us
reduce fusels even in big beers.
The theory of fusel production has been discussed here before (ad
nauseum). The very short version is that fusels are produced either
1. when yeast take in the amino acids (AAs) they need from the wort and
"process them," or
2. when yeast have to make their own AAs because they are not available
in the wort.
While a lot of people probably add nutrients to avoid the second
scenario, I think very few homebrewers think about having too MANY
nutrients, and the possibility of generating excess fusels because
yeast are gorging on the bounty of AAs they have supplied.
The point: I have read several academic papers which found that adding
AAs to a test wort led to HIGHER final fusel levels. I have read zero
that found the opposite. Many of the worts used were industrial worts,
including very high gravity worts with 25% or more of their
fermentables coming from adjunct sugars!
The message is that the addition of nutrients may be a significant
factor that CAUSES excess fusels. And the "dilution" of all-grain wort
by using sugar seems to decrease fusels, even for large fractions of
sugar.
Those who prefer to rely on tradition and commercial experience may be
interested to know that when I asked Stan Heironymous, he said that the
Belgian brewers are (generally) *not* using nutrients (and of course
use a lot of adjunct). Also, George Fix once posted some concerns (to
the Aussie brewing list maybe?) that higher nitrogen in modern malts is
making it harder to avoid excess fusels. A local brewery also did an
experiment where they loaded one of their beers with nutrients, and
while some other factors are involved that complicate the issue, the
resulting beer was much harsher than it normally is.
None of this is helped by the fact that the suggested amounts for some
nutrients are for essentially AA-free wine or mead, and not beer.
What I am saying is that brewers (especially all-grain brewers) should
seriously consider whether or not they want to add AAs to their beer.
What I am wondering is "what am I missing here?"
Caveats:
1. We are told that extract often is nutrient-deficient, and may
require AA additions.
2. Lack of nutrients can be a growth-limiting factor for yeast, and
lead to higher ester levels or even incomplete attenuation. So there
has to be a balance. But the results seem to apply to all-grain beer
over a wide range of conditions.
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:05:02 -0700
From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
Subject: re: compost
Glyn asks why his spent grain compost stinks.
I don't think the moisture content is a problem, although things can
sometimes be too wet in which case the aeration you are doing should help.
The more likely culprit is that your C:N ratio is off. Ideally you want
compost at about 30 parts carbon to 1 part nitrogen and spent grains are
about 15:1. Try adding some dried leaves or even a little shredded paper or
sawdust to up the carbon a bit. Dried leaves would be better because paper
products are very high in carbon and can slow things down if you add too
much. Do a search for C:N ratio and find some charts or calculators to help
find the right amount of materials to add. Most of these won't have spent
grains or brewery wastes, but you can choose something else that's about
15:1 to use in the calculations.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:14:11 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: diacetyl anyone ?
Hello again folks,
> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 08:36:11 -0500
> From: "steve.alexander" <steve-alexander at adelphia.net>
> Subject: diacetyl anyone ?
>
> Chad Stevens & /Fredrik discuss the VDK vs ferment temp issue
> which I have doubts about. Here's an outline for the viewers at home:
Since I agree with what Steve writes maybe there was a misunderstanding
on my side after all like I suspected initially:
My comment referencing to Chad's "cold start & free rise"
which I interpreted as containing a
"warmer than normal finish= free rise" which was the focus of my
comment, and here we seem to agree? I assume that was that
Chad meant?
Wether the "cold start" factor alone, set asid the later part would
increase or decrease diacetyl/AAL was not the main subject of my
comments. If this was the "point" I agree with Steve that things are
at least less obvious.
> >The way I
> >understand that part, the diacetyl production is related
> >to the amino acid uptake sequence and the
> >amino acid balance vs de novo synthesis pathways. And
> >as long as high preference (group A) amino sources are available
> >the inhouse biosynthesis of valine and leucine
> >stimulate acetolactate production.
> >
> >
> I see that high levels of valine & isoleucine (class B aminos) also
> prevents
> AAL production (and alpha-acetohydroxbutarate/2,3pentanedione for
> isoleucine).
Yes, this is consistent with the way I currently view it too.
Group A amino acids prevent utilization of external valine by some kind
of mechanism of nitrogen catabolite repression. Much like glucose
inhibits utilization of maltose. Thus, yeast grows on group A aminos
until they start to get depleted, and during this time, it has to make the
needed valine from scratch, and here AAL is an intermediate that leaks into
wort.
So the larger amount of repressive nitrogen sources that are present
in the wort, the longer will valine synthesis be maintained, and the
longer will AAL have the opportunity to leak out into the beer.
I'm just speculating here, but I'd suspect that for example adding
DAP to wort at the beginning would postpone valine utilization
and possibly postpone the occurance of the AAL peaks, and unless
the finish is slowed down accordingly there seems to be a risk
for higher residual AAL in the beer.
When group A aminos are depleted, it will start to utilize valine. This
will repress/stop the inhouse biosynthesis of valine. Growth continues,
but if the valine is prematurely depleted, yeast will resume inhouse
valine synthesis and thus again start to produce, and leak more AAL.
This may at worst give rise to a second AAL/diacetyl peak, or
at least slow down the reduction, depending on the timings.
So this is the logic I see that low valine levels may cause elevated
diacetyl because low valine levels means the period of repression of
valine synthesis is shorter.
Also I guess there is a time factor on the reduction, in that a "slower
finish" rather than a nose-dive may allow for more reduction of diacetyl
due to the time factor involved.
To me these farily simple speculated mechanisms seem to account at least
for what I have read and know about diacetyl. It could explain the
basic mechanisms of production, and reduction, as well as appearance
of secondary diacetyl peaks, and how that would depend on the amount
of group A aminos AND the amount of valine, and maybe even the total amount
of nitrogen, in particular the case where valine is depleted very early.
Varying the circumstances, I can imagine how these simple mechanisms explain
the basic diacetyl dynamics that have been reported. This inludes double
peaks, or post fermentation peaks, or even the seemingly contradictory result
that sometimes lower valine levels give less diacetyl. (If my memory is correct
I read this, there was in one case where there was a certain valine level
that gave the maximum amount of diacetyl. Somewhat odd, and while
I didn't spend too much energy on that I think this could be explain
by accounting for the joint dynamics here.
It is easy to imagine how the AAL and diacetyl profiles look like, by
imagining how the growth profile looks like, and then imagine how
AAL synthesis is regulated along the timeline. Some checkpoints are
end of repression of valine synthesis, by assumption due to depletion
of group A aminos. The other checkpoint is depletion of valine
(if it happens before EOF). In parallell to this, one would have the
external oxidation of AAL to diacetyl, as well as the reabsorbtion
and reduction of diacetyl, this possibly also depends on some redox
accounting in the the cell. The basic dynamic phenomena can be
understood _to principle_ by a very simple mathematical model. The
hard part is the accuracy, which translates to the intricate balancing
and regulation acts of the cell. Often the lack of accuracy in a system
with complex dynamics blurs everything up to the point where even
the principal behaviour is hard to see.
I don't have any decent simulations at hand at the moment,
but I drew this by hand :-|
http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/diac.jpg
The scales are probably a bit unrelaistics but it illustrates the three sections
to it's principle, the y-scale means nothing.
1) AAL production during group A amino assimilation (valine bios. repressed)
2) no/low AAL production during valine uptake
3) valine depleted, hints of a second peak may appear
( I wish I had done some more progress on the model, but
eventually I hope to be able to pull all kinds of nice simulations
out of it. Right now, the major thing I'm working on is how to be able to
manage this complex thing into a flexible framework.I want to
do it properly from the beginning and hardcode as little as possible.
At first I though that I'd just hardcode all the equations, but it didn't
took too long until I realised it was madness.
I am currently updating my understanding on gene transcription
to see how I can condense that into a simple and generic regulatory
mathematical model that I can exploit in a systematic way. Or if
I have to go that deep at all. I had hoped not, but I don't know yet.)
> >But set aside other more complex possibilities, they way
> >this is currently encoded in my head the
> >non-enzymatic oxidation of alpha-acetolactate
> >to diacetyl outside the cell is favoured by a higher temperature.
> >And this step seems to be the bottleneck
> >(which is probably why diacetyl sometimes tend to
> >appear again out of nowhere in keg or bottle), so the sooner
> >all the "potential diacetyl" (alpha-acetolactate) is converted to
> >free diacetyl, the sooner can it be reassimilated and reduced
> >by yeast to acetoin and butandiol.
> >
> >
> This makes sense and argues that a warmer ferment (or at least a VDK rest)
> favors the VDK removal.
>
> Yeah something is amiss here. Perhaps the cold really radically
> reduces AAL
> production for reasons not explained here. As Fredrik says it is a
> complex
> issue with many competing effects adding to the whole. It just looks
> wrong to
> me.
My comments was fuzzy, as I explained above my main arguments was on
the warm finish (free rise), not the cold start. Who knows, perhaps the
cold start and reduces a too aggressive upregulation of aminoacid pipelines
and thus implies a lower AAL pressure and leakage? Also, as per some
general mechanism of "passive membrane diffusion", it's supposedly
disfavoured by lower temperature, so perhaps the temperature and growth
rate may have an impact on reducing the AAL leakage? But I agree that
these are wild speculations and I'm sure you could come up with
speculations in the opposite direction as well if you want to.
/Fredrik
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:50:40 -0800
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: spiked ale, Het Pint....
AleX, I don't know what tradition this might relate to, but I stumbled on
this as a fix to a cream ale that finished too sweet for my tastes (but
stable) and was a bit bland, and improved vastly with a shot of scotch
(don't worry, I use the cheap blends for this task). I like to call it my
"Scottish Cream Ale". I have since found that my big (1.070) wheat beer
made using a big starter of wy3056 but finshing at 1.012 is much improved
with a bit of Alberta rye, the spice goes very well with the spicy notes in
the wheat yeast and makes the beer much drier on the palate. It should be
noted that I *only* try this stunt at home, and when I don't need to go
anywhere or be coherent for awhile....
Cheers...
Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:14:05 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <enkerli at gmail.com>
Subject: Hogmanay Het Pint?
Hmmm...
Was listening to the EatFeed.com podcast and they mentioned an ale drink
served at First Footing for Hogmanay. It was called a "het pint" and was
a mixed drink of ale, nutmeg, and whisky. (Online recipes seem to
include eggs too.) Now, we're way passed the
Kwanza/Hanukkah/Hogmanay/Christmas Holiday Season, and it's a beer drink
instead of a beer style, but did any here experiment with something
similar to this?
Couldn't find anything in the archives about it.
Cheers!
Alexandre (aka Ale-X), in Montreal
[555.1km, 62.8] Apparent Rennerian
http://enkerli.wordpress.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:10:05 -0600
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: Anyone using a "heat pipe" to cool fermenter? How about a peltier
I've been kicking an idea around for awhile and did a google-search but
couldn't find anything directly on point. A recent post about peltier
devices made me think about this again. What about coupling a peltier
with a heatpipe?
For those who don't know, a 'heat pipe' is a very simple device with no
moving parts and requiring no power, but which helps transfer heat from
one place to another. In its simplest form, it would be a length of
straight copper pipe sealed at both ends, partially filled with alcohol
or freon or some other liquid to act as a refrigerant. To cool a
carboy, it would be inserted into the neck of the carboy and extend from
the bottom and protrude through the neck for some distance -- perhaps a
foot (30cm) or a bit more. The liquid refrigerant (alcohol, freon, or
whatever) pools at the bottom of the pipe, picks up heat from the
fermenting wort which causes some of the refrigerant to evaporate and
rise to the top (into the part of pipe extending outside the carboy)
where it condenses, releasing heat to the upper part of the pipe where
it is dissipated into the air, and the condensed refrigerant runs back
down the pipe into the lower portion within the carboy to repeat. The
cycle is continuous so long as there is a temperature differential,
helping move heat from the inside to the outside of the carboy. The
thinnest gauge copper would be used to improve conductivity, and even
convoluted pipe could be used to increase surface area and efficiency.
By itself, I'm not sure a heatpipe would help very much because it can't
cool below ambient temperature, and I can do better than that with a fan
and evaporative cooling. But heatpipe performance should be improved
immensely by adding a peltier device to the top portion of the pipe, and
I think it would probably lower temps more than evaporative cooling,
based on my readings. For those who don't know, a peltier device uses
solid state electronics and a flow of direct current to move heat from
one side to the other; an example is those ice chests which can be
plugged into a car's cigarette lighter socket. Coupling a peltier to a
heatpipe would also solve a couple of problems for people who want to
use a peltier with a carboy: first, it solves the problem of how to
connect to the carboy; second, it reaches to the center of the wort
which is hardest to cool; third, because it runs up the center,
convective currents should be uniformly distributed within the fermenter
for greater efficiency and uniformity of temperature. The pipe would be
easy to sanitize and since it isn't permanently mounted, the whole thing
could easily be moved to other fermenters such as a bucket or a conical,
if they have a sufficient opening in their lids. A thermostatic
coupling for the peltier could run along the side of the pipe, thereby
measuring temp at the center of the fermenter to regulate the peltier.
There are some downsides, but nothing significant in my mind. First,
you won't be able to use a Burton Union on your carboy, but I don't know
anyone who does anyway, even though they are available. Second, you
won't be able to use a blow off tube or a conventional airlock. How bad
is that? Well, if properly designed, the heatpipe should act as an
airlock itself. If the pipe has a flange or is widened at the point
where it enters the fermenter so that the weight of the pipe rests on a
sanitized rubber gasket between it and the lid or carboy neck, I think
it will provide a sufficient seal. Pressure inside the fermenter would
merely lift the entire pipe and peltier device just enough to release
CO2, and whenever it vents in that way, the positive pressure inside the
fermenter should prevent oxygen and contaminants from entering.
Would that create too much pressure inside the fermenter, risking an
explosion of the carboy? Most of the weight of the portion of the pipe
which is submerged in wort would be offset by buoyancy; in fact,
depending upon the gauge of the pipe and how much it is filled with
refrigerant, that portion of the pipe might even have a positive
buoyancy. That leaves the portion of pipe extending above the level of
wort, plus the weight of the peltier, heat sink (if any), and fan. I've
tried to find some weight specifications to use as examples, but
unfortunately haven't found any yet. But some of these devices that are
available are mounted on CPUs inside computers, and don't look like they
could weigh much more than a pound -- but let's use 3 pounds (1.36kg) as
an example and as an upper limit of total negative buoyancy, i.e., the
weight on the gasket at the carboy neck or lid. The inside diameter of
the neck on my carboys is about one and an eighth inches (2.86cm), for a
surface area of .994 square inches (6.41 square cm) -- "close enough for
government work" to call one square inch. Assuming three pounds of
weight on that one square inch, it would require 3 psi to break the
seal, causing a pressure of 3psi throughout the carboy. I tried to
research whether that was too much or not, and couldn't find an answer;
I did find this thread -- http://tinyurl.com/fvned -- which was
inconclusive. But assuming that 3psi is not too much, the pipe and
peltier should cause a good seal. Now, another bad downside with not
being able to use a blow off tube is that, with a really vigorous
fermentation, each time the seal is momentarily broken to vent pressure,
we're likely to have some kraeusen squirt out; this can at least be
deflected downward by adding to the heatpipe a small sleeve which
overhangs the neck of the carboy, but then we would still have a mess
with kraeusen running down the sides of the carboy -- although it could
be set inside a small pan or tub to minimize the mess. However, if the
heatpipe and peltier are successful in holding the temp of the wort down
to a nice low temp of, let's say, 64F/18C, will fermentations really be
that vigorous? I don't know because I've never been able to ferment
that low; I've had some pretty violent fermentations, but I've seldom
been able to keep my temp down below 70F/21C. With lower temps,
fermentations will be slower, but I don't know how slow.
This is just some thinking on my part; I've never attempted any of this
and don't know if it would work or not. Seems to me like it would, and
I'd love for some of the more knowledgeable engineering types here to
comment on this. If anyone thinks they can make this work and market
it, you have my permission; just send me a 'beta' unit to try out. ;-)
Also, if anyone tries this, please let me know how it works out. I
might give it a try myself, but I'll need to find out a lot more about
how to make the heat pipe -- how much liquid to put in it, etc. But
there's no sense in even trying if calculations say it won't work.
I'm posting this to a lot of forums to try to get as many responses as
possible. Also, I'm sorry this is so long; I hope you folks don't mind.
Thanks.
Cheers, Bill Velek
Join "HomeBrewers" international grid-computing team and help mankind by
donating spare computer power for medical research such as cancer; we're
in the top 8%, and we beat the MillerTime team: http://tinyurl.com/b7ofs
The life that your computer can help save ... might be someone you love.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:21:20 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Koln water ?
In an offline discussion with John Peed, he notes the BJCP style guidelines
describe 6c.Kolsch ingredients with the phrase, "Extremely soft water",
yet every Koln/Cologne water analysis I've seen including a recent one
from the regional water authority shows the water with 160ppm hardness
as CaCO3. Koln water is clearly hard or medium hard.
What is wrong with this picture ?
cc: Al Korzonas
-S
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:56:31 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: Update Your BJCP Email Address
Judges,
Why did you join the BJCP? It was a lot of work studying for and taking
the exam. Yet MANY of you are not keeping your contact information up to
date with the BJCP. As we've announced previously, we are no longer making
snail mailings to judges. The form of contact by the BJCP is email. This
is also true of most competitions. I just sent email to all the judges in
the NE region for the AHA 1st Round competition in Philadelphia and I got a
couple dozen failed email addresses and that doesn't count those that
already didn't have an email address on record.
So you changed ISPs, moved, changed jobs or graduated; your old email
account is no longer valid. Without a valid email contact for you many
competitions cannot contact you to judge and the BJCP itself cannot contact
you about any BJCP business. Want to be notified when there are
competitions in your area? When there are exams to be given? Want to know
about elections or other BJCP business? Please go on-line to the BJCP web
site and update your personal contact information.
David Houseman
BJCP Competition Director
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #4956, 02/20/06
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